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State Of The Blog

Happy holidays, and all that.

Anyway, there's no better time than right now to give you a head's up on what's going on for the next four weeks. Bright and early tomorrow morning some friends and I are going on a trip, and I won't be back until January 20th or so. Don't fret, though - I wouldn't dare leave this place alone for that long, so I've chased down some bitchin' pinch-bloggers who've graciously volunteered to help fill in the void. They are, in no particular order:

-Deanna, of Marinerds. Those of you who've been around since the summer will remember that she helped out for a few days in August, and is totally awesome.

-Steve Nelson, of the late Mariners Wheelhouse. Steve was one of the earliest members of the Mariner blogosphere, and the Wheelhouse was a daily read for as long as it was active.

-Trent Taylor, who had his own hilariously named blog a few years ago before he gave it up and it got taken over, presumably by its namesake. Trent then became a regular writer on Leone For Third and Lookout Landing before his day job got in the way, so long-time readers should remember who he is.

Those three are pretty much going to be running the place for the next month or so, so be nice. Since I'll only be able to pop in for a second from Internet cafes every few days, I've given them full admin capabilities, and they're not afraid to use them. Let that be a warning to those of you who love to extol the many virtues of partisan politics or Rene Rivera.

----------

By the way, as a final topic before I start packing, yeah, I'm aware of the Barry Zito rumors, and yeah, I'm nervous. Okay, on the one hand he'd make this team a few wins better by replacing Cha Baek, but on the other he's going to command 6+ years and ~$100m+, which is a top-tier commitment for a guy who isn't a top-tier pitcher. This is probably best examined with a classic pro/con list, which I'll attempt pretty much off the top of my head:

Pro:

  • Instantly makes the 2007 team better, making them legitimate contenders in a weak division.

  • Zito is great for the park, as he's a flyball pitcher against whom managers refuse to play lefties.

  • Only 28, with no history of arm trouble and at least 34 starts for six consecutive seasons.

  • Infield fly and line drive rates suggest ability to induce weaker contact than the average pitcher.

  • No evident career home/road splits.

  • Puts Seattle back on the map as a potential destination for top free agent talent.

  • Gets people more excited for the season to start.

  • Routinely beats his FIP/xFIP figures.

  • Isn't Joel Pineiro.

Con:

  • Not an ace; occupies a tier below the Santanas and Halladays, and may not even be one of the top five starters in the division.

  • Strikeout rate has declined substantially from early career peak (16.1% in 2006, 22.7% in 2001). Trend supported by the subjective observation that his velocity is lower than it used to be.

  • Set a career-high for walks in 2006.

  • Leaving Oakland's foul territory will cost him outs.

  • Sub-4 2006 ERA due in large part to flukishly high rate of stranded runners, which isn't a repeatable skill.

  • Rarely do pitchers maintain a stable level of performance for six consecutive seasons. Particularly the ones who aren't aces.

  • Both Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson saw similar workloads and similar declines in strikeout rate in Oakland before, and soon after leaving they ran into arm trouble.

  • Signing Zito and unloading Sexson/Beltre to make room is basically a lateral move on the field with an enormous financial commitment.

  • Signing Zito and not unloading Sexson/Beltre to make room means ownership was willing to go higher the whole time, calling into question why they set a strict budget when better players were available both this offseason and in winters past.

  • More likely to be an albatross at the end of his contract than a valuable player.

That just about does it. Feel free to fill in anything I might've missed.

Signing Barry Zito to a $100m+/6yr+ contract would represent the triumph of a win-now mentality over long-term sensibility in the front office. This organization's steadfast refusal to go over four years for any pitcher in the past has been one of its few philosophies I supported, and for those guys to consider violating their own rule now to sign someone who isn't even a #1 starter reeks of desperation. Granted, yeah, it'd make me more excited about the team's chances next season, but playing for the current without an eye for the future is how you wind up with teams like the 2001 Orioles or 2004 Mariners. Not that Zito's a guarantee to fall on his face, but who the hell knows what's going to happen in four, five, or six years? Or, as another way of putting it, if the 2004-2006 Zito isn't a $16m+ pitcher, why should we expect the 2007-2012 Zito to be a $16m+ pitcher? Pitchers aren't hitters; they don't hit their prime at 27-29. Zito's been around for six and a half seasons, and he's not getting any better. If the Mariners offer him the money he wants, they'll be doing so because they believe the 2006 Barry Zito is worth it, which he isn't.

I don't think signing Zito would be the colossal, unmitigated disaster I thought it'd be a few months ago, but it still wouldn't be smart, particularly if it resulted in other high-priced non-Washburn players getting jettisoned. The odds of any six-year commitment looking good by the end are slim, and when said contract begins with the player in question already performing worse than he used to, well, that's not a good recipe for success.

Barry Zito's neat and all, but as much as I hate raining on what most people think should be a parade, he doesn't deserve what he wants. Maybe - maybe - it'd be justifiable if he were the last piece of the puzzle, but the only reason he'd even make the 2007 Mariners a contender is because the division blows, and that's a bad place to start.

You overpay for A-grade top talent. Barry Zito doesn't fit the bill.

----------

With that, I'm (almost) gone. Be good, and don't make a mess.

0 recs  |  59 comments

Comments

There seems to be
a mentality among alot of fans of the game, particularly those that get into depth analysis of the game of how money is spent is better than winning ballgames.

What I mean is, that quite a few would be happy with a 70 win team as long as they didn't over spend on any player, unless they are hall of fame calibur all the way around.

Personally, me... I don't care how much they spend.... if they shell out 20 million to Zito and it gives the team a better chance at winning more games, then so be it... if it gets them to the playoffs, that's all the better.. and if for some rabbit out of thin air type scenario they actually get to the world series... well I don't care if they don't win 70 games for the remainder of his contract.  All I want is a team that has a legitimate shot of getting to the division title and the playoffs.... I don't want the perfect scenario team where each player is paid according to this mythical wage scale that we as fans tend to come up with....

if the going rate for middle tier pitchers (Wasburn, Meche, Lilly and the likes is 4 years and 10 mil...) then I find it hard to say someone with the track record of success that Zito has had isn't worth it, especially if it gives my favorite team a better chance at getting to the playoffs this year.  I'm not here to worry about '08 and beyond... too many things can happen in a year to worry about anything other than next season.

Signing Barry Zito, instantly makes this team better.... whether its for 16 mil, or 10 mil.. makes no difference to me... with him we have a much better shot at reaching the playoffs then without him.

See
that's the side of me that'd be excited if we actually got him.

I'm getting tired of preaching fiscal responsibility.

I hear you...
The money only becomes a problem, really, when it causes them not to go after a player in following years because they say they don't have the money.  They could spend $200 million on the payroll for their team, and I wouldn't give a rats patooty, provided they a) didn't raise ticket prices (uh, they already did that last year -- THANKS JARROD!), or b) didn't raise concessions (they go up anyway), or c) didn't complain about not having money to make the moves they need to make to improve their club both at the trade deadline and during the offseason.

Is it the 'smart' thing to do?  Probably not.  It's definitely better to overpay for true superstars, and find good scrubs to help the budget.  But as long as they don't gripe about it and be tightwads about it, I really wouldn't care how much they spend.  It's the fact that based on their revenues and inflation in general that they HAVEN'T raised the payroll in several years that actually pisses me off more. I'd be THRILLED if they spend the $100-120 million they could be spending.  More money in the players' pockets than the owners' pockets is just fine by me.  

OTOH...
...Barry Zito's BBRef comps include Mike Hampton, Ramon Martinez, and Kevin Appier.  That's some pretty ominous forebodings if you ask me...
He's also comparable to Glavine.
Zito doesn't make this team better
if signing him means a trade of Sexson or Beltre.
No kidding...
Yeah people gripe about Sexson, but he is an upgrade over Broussard, really.  Losing Beltre will push ME over the edge.  He's my favorite M's hitter right now, and I just know that Bavasi will trade him just to spite ME.  That would be a bigger loss IMHO than Sexson, as it's MUCH harder to find an average-to-good 3B-man than it is to find one over at 1B.

If they have to trade one, I'm praying it's Sexson. Beltre is going to bust out in 2007.

Perhaps, Perhaps Not
Personally, me... I don't care how much they spend

All I want is a team that has a legitimate shot of getting to the division title and the playoffs

Yes, you do care how much they spend.  Money well spent and money ill spent is a big part of what separates teams in MLB.  I like wins.  Maybe... you're more indifferent?

Arguing in favor of mediocre contracts is tacit acceptance of mediocre teams.

The way I look at it is
Its not my money so I don't really care how much they spend on players.

But I do understand how it can cripple teams finically, which is why I always hope for a good deal.

LOL Cartman getting Snelling
BEEEEEEEEFCAAAAAAAAAAKE!!!

Have fun on your trip, Jeff.  I'm sure the trio of interim admins with the lot of us can keep things interesting in your absence ;)

Mhmm
The inclusion of the Cartman picture was just plain cruel.
6/100 is the right amount
(posted on another thread but bears repeating)

This is actually just about right, if you figure that Zito is a 4-4.5 WAR player. It is pretty easy to argue that Zito is at 4-5 WAR (see URL below), which in today's FA market at $4-4.5mm/game above replacement is pretty much exactly what Zito is worth.

So the only question is really do you want to go six years on a pitcher? Well, if you have to go more years to get your guy and if you ever were going to, Zito is about as healthy a horse as you will come by in free agency.  The M's would be better of doing this deal than not.

If it can be done w/o trading Beltre than I am all for it.  If not, then I wouldn't want to trade Beltre unless the return were sufficient but who knows if BB could pull that off.  ;-)

Oh, and I am tired of thinking about next year so get it done!

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/sabermetric_moves_of_the_off_season/#55

I'm skeptical.
The same analysis revealed that Meche at $55m/5yr isn't that bad of a contract. I disagree.

I will say this - if they just add Zito without losing anyone (besides Broussard), then it's essentially "free money" that nobody expected us to spend. In that case, go for it, I suppose. We're not really losing anything except payroll flexibility we didn't think we'd have anyway.

Not true on Meche
The analysis pegged Meche at 4/22 or 5/34 for a WAR of 2.5.  What he actually got paid overvalued him significantly but the assumption is KC was going to have to overpay for whatever FA they went after.  That they overvalued him AND gave him a fifth year is just, well, dumb. (even by Bavasi standards ;-)  )
and I should add
that I agree about the money/payroll increase.  If it is money they weren't going to spend otherwise then by all means.  If it means trading Beltre then I would rather see something along the lines of Beltre + prospect(s) for Penny and Betamit.
I misspoke.
I read the bit about the wrong player instead of Meche.

Here's what it comes down to - that analysis pegs Zito as reasonable at $96m/6yr, based on recent free agent prices. However, free agency is pretty much the worst possible way to build a roster. I think that's where most of the anti-Zito people are coming from.

I can understand THAT argument
but to say that 6/100 is "overpaying" for Zito is just wrong (especially from people who argue that they should have signed Schmidt, etc).

Hmm, but then again are those same people arguing that you shouldn't sign ANY free agents? Because if FA isn't the way to build a team then the M's shouldn't ever sign any FAs.

That is not what I hear them arguing, so it must just be Zito isn't worth what he is asking and then we are back to my original point about Zito.

Bottom line is the GMs get a budget and are going to spend as much of it as they can to fill out the roster.  If it is $40mm then they trade like Billy and try and make it work.  If it is $140mm then they buy like Epstein. Bottom line is if they can afford to buy FAs they do. A GM can do either option and will win when their risks pan out and lose when they don't.

Either way, 6/100 is EXACTLY what Zito is worth ($4mm/WAR) as a FA.

It's still not full context
since being able to spend 4M/FA win assumes that you are getting X production from non-FA players. Otherwise you'd need a payroll north of 160M to compete.

And even then, it still doesn't make sense because unless you actually believe Barry Zito is a sub 4 ERA pitcher from here on out, then you're overpaying because you can get similar production for way less commitment.

Context
Here is an excerpt from TangoTiger.

"A replacement level team will be .300, and needs about 10-12 million$.  The average payroll is say 75-80 million$.  So, the extra 65-70 million$ will buy you (.500-.300)*162=32.4 wins, or about 2 million$ per win."

So to get to an average team (.500) via free agency costs about $80mm.  Every win above that costs an extra $2mm/win (above replacement). Since there is a limit on the number of players on a team, you start with replacement go from there.  If you have a lot of young players who are above replacement and haven't hit FA yet then you are beating the game (OAK, MIN) and if your team is full of FAs and that gets you your wins then you are paying more per win (NY,NY,BOS, LA, LAA, etc).  The more you have in the budget, the more likely you are to be above average and get into postseason.

It's overpaying for him.
Because the -entire- free agent class is overpaid.
Jeff...good luck on the trip
I'm trying to be overoptimistic in relation to the upcoming season.  You know with all this shit being tossed around throughout the league, someone is due for a run of good luck.  Let's all just hope it's Seattle.

Here's the way I look at it.  When you match up team A and team B and both have mediocre teams, one HAS to win.  Whether its 16-15 or 2-1.  Lets just hope our mediocrity is better than the others.

I can honestly say that I don not like the moves that have been made by the front office this offseason.  I'm not suicidal over them however.  I am just at a "lets wait and see".

I like the sound of getting Zito.  Really I do.  The biggest reason more than anything is he kicks our ass every time he pitches against us.  Plus, he pitches well in the AL West.  I would be happy if he came to Seattle, went 12-12 and every win was a division win.  If you all remember correctly, our division record was absolute crap and we lost upwards of 20 straight at one point.  If we do better in the division, I think we can compete for the AL West title.  Look at the Seahawks.  They are at the point of almost sucking, but again, they've made it to the playoffs and we all know that anything can happen once the playoffs begin.

My pitching optimism looks like this:
Zito signs for the 6/$96 that has been reported.  Goes 15-12.  Felix wins 18 games, Ramirez wins 10, Washburn wins 12 and Bautista wins 12.  There's 67 wins by our rotation.  Who wouldnt be happy with that?

'pitches well vs AL West'
I don't think Zito matches up well against the Oakland lineup.  He tends to fare poorly against teams that will take a lot of pitches, get their walks, and drive up the pitch count.
Sounds like our entire pitching staff
He'll fit right in.
Feels a little like our parents are going
on vacation and leaving us with instructions like there is food in the fridge and your aunt will be dropping by every day to check in on us.  

Hope Zito doesn't come to the M's cause that would probably ruin your vacation.

Re:Parents on vacation
Heh, and they're gonna be gone on New Years Eve.

Duuuuuuuddddeeeee.......PARTY!

Re:Parents on vacation
When Jeff checks in after New Years, I bet the place is going to be a shambles.

Though we did promise to barricade the door if the good Reverend tries to get in.

Have Fun, Jeffy-boy!
So, between Steve and Trent, which one's Uncle Rico.  I'd lean towards Steve myself, 'cause he's older :-P
Am I the only one here
who would be secretly thrilled with a Zito signing because they absolutely will not allow their mind to think beyond 2009? It's that fan-first side of me, I guess. I know it's not the most rational thought, but goddamnit, I want some playoff action.  
Let me also add that this is only if
they hang onto Beltre. Not only would I be sad to see him go, but I just KNOW he's gonna have a monster season next year if we trade him.
I would be more excited about 2007
But I would be terrified about 2009,2010,2011 ect.
Sloz Stou
I definitely don't want to lose AdBel and think a Zito signing will hurt use years 3-4 through 6....

...but I as well have a part of me wishing to be satiated by a Zito signing for next year.  It's the addictive part of my personality.

Man if we could get him on a 1 year deal
I'd love that.

Money would be no matter to me then. I don't care if he got paid $30 million for 2007, just as long as thats the only season he got paid.

Sadly, that has no basis in reality.

Hola
Heylo, I'm new to this blog, but I've been reading your comments and blogs for the past few weeks and would have to agree w/ most of you on the outlook of the Mariners. I believe the signing of Zito would have been justified, if the Mariners hadn't made the transactions leading up to this rumor. If they ponied up the money for Schmidt, Zito, or Lilly and fell short, then the aquisitions of Miguel Batista and Horacio Ramirez wouldn't seem so horrible, as they would have been second alternatives. However, with those aquisitions, it makes it seem as if they interest in Schmidt and Zito are and were just filler, to make it sound like the team didn't have enough money for those type of players. Still signing Batista for as much as they did, along with trading Soriano, it would be best to eat the transactions and wait it out, til their contracts expire.
just a tip for you
most new people always do this. Put some spacing in your paragraphs.

It just makes it easier to read

Hey at least
he spelled stuff right.  It also appears he's a Super Troopers fan which also impressed me.
Misspelling has never bothered me
because I can't spell worth a dam :)

"I am already pulled over I can't pull over any farther"

I can't either
but when every other word is spelled wrong I usually stop reading.  I had to be really careful writing these two posts so my spelling was actually right.
Hmmm
The random typo here and there doesn't bother me much, but for some reason little niggly things bother me (they're/there/their, 'here, here', etc).
Is niggly
an english word or have I just done engineering too long and lost all vocab?
Couldn't tell you
I just use it a lot. What branch of engineering are you in?
chemical
Oh...
I'm sorry ;)
I would say 90%
of people have the same response.  That or make a face like they just noticed a dead animal on the floor.  I think I like it but I'm not sure if I'd suggest it to many people out there.
Engineers are a different bunch.
I know, I am one too.  
I'm a pretend engineer
I'm doing the degree with zero intention of becoming an one.
Ditto
though my job last summer had a pretty cool title:

Sports Engineer.

I could see myself doing that full time if the job wasn't in WhoCares, USA

Why are you suffering through the schooling
or maybe you are doing an easier engineering.
Because
I wanted to prove to myself that I could excell in an impossibly hard course (seriously, our exams make MIT exchange students cry).

Turns out I can't, but at least I'll get my degree.

Yeah
I kinda thought it was normal to see people come out crying after tests.  I guess that doesn't usually happen.

What engineering are you doing?

Mixture of bio and structural
Although I've had to go through 2 years of everything except ChemEng already.
Yeah
ChemE is kinda totally different than the other engineerings because we don't use alot of the intro engineering courses that other majors use.
chemical
FWIW - I graduated in Civil and that is the branch where I hold my Professional Registrations.  But these days I'm most comfortable with ChemEs and MechEs.
For all your ChemE coworkers
The nerdiest tribute to Thermo ever.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q1xzcM5XDlo

Chem E is on it's way I guess
but it was some catching up to do on the badass CompSci nerdcore.
Yeah there is no way we are even close
That is a weird example from Stanford where I feel those are way nerdier than most.
yeah,
at Carnegie Mellon, none of the engineering disciplines came anywhere near being as nerdy or interesting as the computer science people.  ChemE people were downright normal...
It's funny
'cause the weirdest people I know here are a biologist, a geologist, and an English student. The CompScis are relatively sane.

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