This game came within one pitch of being perhaps the most humiliating loss of the season.

Biggest Contribution: Jose Lopez, +46.8%
Biggest Suckfest: Adrian Beltre, -27.5%
Most Important AB: Lopez double, +51.8%
Most Important Pitch: Gonzalez home run, -17.7%
Total Contribution by Pitcher(s): +31.9%
Total Contribution by Hitters: +18.1%
Total Contribution by Opposition: 0.0%
(What is this chart?)
- Why would this have been arguably the most humiliating loss of the season? I'll tell you why. The Mariners made 24 outs at the plate today. 16 of those outs were made on balls out of the zone. SIXTEEN. Four times they made outs on ball four. They went 0-6 (with a double play to boot) in three-ball counts. Most of this came against Shawn flipping Estes, who may not have put even a quarter of his pitches inside the strike zone. It's unfathomable how bad this team is when it comes to distinguishing between balls and strikes. I feel like a front office would have to go out of its way to collect a bunch of hitters this stupid. It might be fashionable to blame Pentland for this, but honestly, what's he supposed to do? He can't fix anyone's brain if they don't give him the tools. This is just a lineup that loves to swing at trash, with the result being that I'll never feel comfortable giving us the edge in any given pitching matchup until something radically changes.
- Ironically the game-winning hit came on a first-pitch outside fastball that a more disciplined batter probably would've taken. After what felt like an entire weekend of watching Brian Giles own us by shooting balls the other way, it was nice to see Lopez burn the Padres by doing the same. He's one of only three guys in the lineup I trust to do anything good with that pitch. Kenji probably would've grounded it foul past third base somehow.
- Felix is broken. Not physically, but there's something seriously wrong here. He's throwing fewer strikes, he's missing fewer bats, and his groundball rate has dropped to an area alarmingly close to the league average. He's still good, but he's supposed to be so much more than this. I don't know exactly what the problem is - that would require a more exhaustive study than I could pull off at the moment - but I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with this:
|
2007 |
2008 |
| Fastball% |
56 |
65 |
| Slider% |
21 |
11 |
| Curveball% |
14 |
9 |
| Changeup% |
9 |
14 |
The fastball. He's relying on it significantly more often than he ever has in his Major League career, and it's come at the expense of his breaking pitches. Even when he's ahead in the count, he's still going to the heat. When ahead in the count (0-1, 0-2, 1-2, 2-2) a year ago, Felix threw 50% fastballs. When ahead in the count so far this year, he's thrown 61% fastballs. My impression is that that's a significant difference, and it's unlikely to be a mistake - this doesn't seem like the kind of thing that happens by accident. This looks more like a plan. It'd be one thing if those fastballs when ahead in the count looked like the one Felix threw Kevin Kouzmanoff in the sixth, but too often they don't. I need to get to the bottom of this.
Update: Fangraphs and Kalk PITCHf/x 2007 data may not be accurate. Discussion in the comments.
- I've been informed that the Safeco PA was blaring Sunshine, Lollipops and Rainbows prior to the start of the game.
- There's nothing wrong with Sean Green. 20 pitches, 12 strikes, five routine groundouts. If Major League Baseball could pull itself away from the impression that effective late-inning relievers need to throw 96, Green would be in line for one hell of a lucrative career. Instead he's a 29 year old nobody making close to the minimum who makes the most talented of right-handed hitters look like feeble little girls and who doesn't have any biographical information listed on his official player page. I hope he at least gets mad tail, even though I'm sure he doesn't.
- JJ: still not back, but getting closer. Working back-to-back games for the first time since the start of the season, Putz threw a 1-2-3 ninth with a pair of strikeouts. Once again he couldn't find the zone with his best heat (96 this afternoon), but he had the wildly undisciplined Khalilbot Greene eating out of his hand, as he put him away with a low-away splitter that was identical to one thrown earlier in the at bat. The swinging strikes were nice to see. Unless he's still hiding some kind of injury, JJ can't be too far away from firing on all cylinders. If only that were likely to matter.
- Raul Ibanez drew two walks and stung a line drive into right field. He's clearly incapable of hitting when he's playing DH.
- The video of the Richie Sexson vs. Heath Bell at bat in the bottom of the seventh is all the proof you need that Richie's bat speed is gone and never coming back. Bell dialed up three consecutive high fastballs at 93-95 and Richie was late swinging through each one of them. He did manage to line an 88mph Shawn Estes fastball back up the middle in the fifth, but that's about as good a benchmark as being able to predict pitches from the dugout in Spring Training is for breaking camp on the bench.
- Jeff Clement was called up from Tacoma on April 30th to serve as the team's fairly regular DH, because Jose Vidro wasn't producing. Since that point, Vidro has gone 5-25 with zero walks and zero extra-base hits. Vidro has now reclaimed his role as the regular DH, with Clement's demotion. Because he's clearly earned it. Look, assholes, nothing's changed. Vidro is still the same pile of crap that just three weeks ago you thought was worth replacing. Don't give me the back injury excuse - that's new, and it's not why he's been bad. He's been bad because he's bad. Do you honestly think that giving him his job back is better for the team than putting Reed in left field and sliding Raul to DH? Or just putting Reed at DH and leaving Raul alone? Did you even consider these options? By calling up Jeremy Reed, you obviously think he has something to offer to the team, but by sitting him in the dugout, you obviously think he has less to offer than Jose Vidro, whose sorry ass you benched for a rookie earlier this very month. I don't get it. What are you going for?
Consistency. Demonstrate consistency. It's all I ask.
ESTABLISH THE FASTBALL
ESTABLISH THE MOTHERFUCKING FASTBALL
Is it established yet?
Jordan of Boise - May 18, 2008
From those numbers it looks like the increased amount of fastballs
is coming at the expense of his slider. Which, IMO, is currently his best pitch. I’m not nearly qualified enough to look into shit like this, but there could be something there.
Nick S - May 18, 2008
I can’t wait till they show Mickey and the Cat after wins.
JI - May 18, 2008
ok, so where'd my blockquote go?
JI - May 18, 2008
That was totally in character, though
Gomez - May 18, 2008
It was an error free post otherwise.
JI - May 18, 2008
If you take away all the mistakes your typing has been pretty good
Jeff Sullivan - May 18, 2008
I 100% believed this would be the reply.
JI - May 18, 2008
So you're saying you were confident that Jeff had that ready?
Matthew - May 18, 2008
I had it ready to go to.
JI - May 18, 2008
I saw Red for the first time in person
I would’ve said hi but didn’t have time. Turns out he was sitting ten rows behind me the whole game. So hi to you Red from the guy in the RRS jersey.
Mariner John - May 18, 2008
How much of the fastball debacle with Felix
can we blame on the coaching staff?
Deep down I’d like to think “all of it” so I can further my irrational hatred of our pitching coach.
BrianL - May 18, 2008
I don't think it's fair to call it a "debacle" right now
but I’d really like to figure out what’s going on.
Jeff Sullivan - May 18, 2008
Well at FanFest Stottlemyre talked to us at the SABR meet.
He told me he wanted Felix to throw more fastballs, when he said establish the fastball he just meant more of them, not being better at getting them in the zone. I do think it is the coaching staff, just based on that brief conversation with Stottlemyre. They really don’t think that he should mix it up more.
For comparison’s sake, I looked up Pedro Martinez FB% and in his healthy year with the Mets it was 53.5%...Randy Johnson’s been 56%ish, Peavy was 57% last year…Smoltz has been UNDER 50% since 2006. It just doesn’t make sense to make him throw more fastballs when he was successful throwing less last year, and other great pitchers can get by that way too.
Also, Erik Bedard:
2007: 57.9% FB
2008: 62.1% FB
I’m no genius but it sure seems like this is a stupid stupid organizational philosophy.
BrettJMiller - May 18, 2008
Irrational hatred furthered!
Thanks Brett.
BrianL - May 18, 2008
Maybe it's something that worked in the 60s
This team was supposed to be a shitty version of the 65 Dodgers.
JI - May 18, 2008
Even with all these FB shenanigans
Beside his initial callup, Felix has had his best results of his career.
JI - May 19, 2008
except in every category that matters
he’s missing less bats, throwing more balls, getting less groundballs, striking out fewer batters, walking more, etc.
This is entirely the natural regression of his HR/FB
Matthew - May 19, 2008
I should have been clearer
This wasn’t supposed to be an endorsement of his results, rather more a footnote.
JI - May 19, 2008
What I don't understand, is that us commoners that are paid nothing know that Vidro is a pile of crap
But “experts” being paid 6-7 figures think Vidro is a competent DH. I just don’t understand their reasoning. I guess I’ll just have to root for a pulled hamstring or a complete week of suck for Vidro. As was pointed out by someone, this year management has been able to yank someone if they underachieve, so I guess the only difference is how badly Raul will hurt the defense between the time Vidro plays and when they finally decide to have Reed play LF and Ibanez DH and Vidro DFA with Cairo.
Fin - May 18, 2008
I was thinking about this earlier.
Even the casual fans hate Vidro. All parties involved except for Ms management hate Vidro.
What’s management’s story?
Do they want to showcase Vidro and try to get someone to offer a warm body for him?
Do they just want him to hold a roster spot until Clement has his act together?
Are they really that incompetent?
Why is it that Ms management are the only ones who think this is a good idea?
BrianL - May 18, 2008
Felix pitches broken down by batter handedness
Type: Fst – Chng – Curv – Sldr
LHB: 63% – 19% – 10% – 8%
RHB: 70% – 07% – 06% – 16%
Generally, the idea is to throw pitches that break away from the batter so for Felix, you’d want to see FB and CH to LHB and SL and CV to RHB. The uptick in changeups above had me hoping that since Felix is seeing more LHB so far this year, that would at least partially drive the increase in fastballs, but uhhh, no, not even close.
Matthew - May 18, 2008
Which pitch turns into the mystery meat 88MPH cockball?
JI - May 18, 2008
That would be the change
Jeff Sullivan - May 18, 2008
I still have no idea why'd you pump fastballs in on 0-2, and 1-2
other than to keep the opposition honest
JI - May 18, 2008
See it seems to me that M's pitchers rarely throw anything CLOSE to the zone in 2 strike counts.
I know it’s a waste pitch count, but opposing hitters seem to know M’s pitchers won’t throw one anywhere near the zone and therefore just take. I have no evidence to support this, but just sitting in the stands it really has seemed to be a pattern this year. M’s pitchers don’t throw it close enough to the zone for the batter to consider swinging in 2 strike counts. And when they do put it in the zone, it’s a meatball. I’m probably just too frustrated and trying too hard to put off my mid-term to think rationally but it just seems to be this way.
And again, no way to back this up, just from being at all the games this year it feels like a theme of our pitchers.
BrettJMiller - May 18, 2008
I'm just going to say what I said in the GT
which was anyone with a Playstation should know what pitches you do and do not throw with 2 strikes
JI - May 18, 2008
FWIW, I don't have pitch types for 2007
but using the rough approximation that pitches clocked above 90 were a fastball
2007 FB vs RHB: 71%
2007 FB vs LHB: 59%
of course, that leads to a total of 64.7% fastballs, so something’s off either in my assumption (might be catching sliders above that cutoff?) or in FanGraphs pitch classification
Matthew - May 18, 2008
http://baseball.bornbybits.com/plots/Felix_Hernandez.html
Jeff Sullivan - May 18, 2008
I trust my measurement a little more because Kalk's is throwing out pitches in non-PFX stadia
so he’s only got 70% of Felix’s pitches from ‘07 and I ran the same check against the 2008 data (instead of going with MLBAM’s types as I did originally) and I get very close to the same results which leads me to one of two possible conclusions:
-Felix hasn’t changed his FB% from ‘07 to ‘08
-Felix’s slider has lost velocity this year and while it broached 90+ consistently in ‘07, it’s no longer doing so in ‘08
I could try moving the threshold up to say 92 mph to be sure to get rid of all sliders.
Matthew - May 18, 2008
Ok, redone with 91.5 as the cutoff for startV
2007 FB vs RHB: 66%
2007 FB vs LHB: 53%
2007 FB vs ALL: 59%
2008 FB vs RHB: 66%
2008 FB vs LHB: 60%
2008 FB vs ALL: 62%
That’s actually a result I would hope to see.
Matthew - May 19, 2008
Well this changes things
What the heck is up with Fangraphs?
Jeff Sullivan - May 19, 2008
Do you think they are going with more FBs
because they are trying to minimize risk of injury?
JI - May 18, 2008
By the way, let me say this right now:
I am 100% confident that the Mariners will not let Vidro’s 2009 option vest. It’s just the fact that he’s getting any PA’s at all that’s stupid.
Jeff Sullivan - May 18, 2008
You have more faith in this franchise than I do.
Please let me leach off some of your realism.
BrianL - May 18, 2008
As bad as some decisions have been, there is a lower bound to their capacity to do stupid things
Jeff Sullivan - May 18, 2008
100%?
You want to end up owing all us another fin?
Matthew - May 18, 2008
I was also 100% confident that Felix would win the 2006 Cy Young
Jeff Sullivan - May 18, 2008
I was 100% confident that rooting for Boston in 2004 was a bad idea.
JI - May 18, 2008
I was 100% confident that it was really butter.
I was so very wrong.
BrianL - May 18, 2008
I couldn't believe it, that's for sure.
CapSea - May 19, 2008
Another fin?
Fin - May 19, 2008
"Fin" as in...
The Typical Idiot Fan - May 19, 2008
Dude you really need to post smaller images
this is getting ridiculous.
Jeff Sullivan - May 19, 2008
I agree.
Even if they like Vidro, I’m sure they know that no one else wants him. If they wanted him in 2009, they could not let his option vest and re-sign him for only 2-3 million. Why pay 9 for someone no one else even comes close to wanting.
CapSea - May 19, 2008
The entire history of this organization says hello.
JI - May 19, 2008
Untrue.
Other, equally incompetent teams have wanted the players we got. We usually compete on all FA signings and trades with the Reds and Giants.
CapSea - May 19, 2008
Carlos Silva, and Jose Vidro FTW
JI - May 19, 2008
We were competing for Silva.
I think with the Reds and Royals, if I’m not mistaken. And Vidro was a trade which we gave an injury prone body that we didn’t value. So as far as the team is concerned (however wrong they may be), Vidro only cost us spare change, not actually a lot of money.
CapSea - May 19, 2008
I think we were probably bidding against ourselves
Kyle Loshe didn’t sign until March.
JI - May 19, 2008
I can't find my proof of the Reds
But I did find Royals: http://royalreflections.blogspot.com/2007/11/carlos-silva-rumors.html
Not saying that’s a credible source. Only that I remember it among others. I recall many bad teams being named with his rumors.
CapSea - May 19, 2008
Do rumors mean truth? No, of course not.
But they do help you understand the kinds of teams interesting in signing a player or making a trade (w/Bedard, we were competing with the Reds).
CapSea - May 19, 2008
Vidro is the definition of paying millions of dollars for something nobody wants
Jeff Sullivan - May 19, 2008
Yes, per year he had a high cost.
But as far as what they needed to give for him, they did not value Doyle at all, so it cost them “nothing” to get him, and they thought he’d be worth his already in place contract because they’re idiots. It is not the same thing as paying 9 million for him in 2009, when they know they could get him for much less in the FA market (if they want to re-sign him) because no one wants him for anywhere near that much, so they are not competing with anyone. That is why I agree that they absolutely will not let his option vest, because even if they want to re-sign him, they can get him for far less as an FA. There is no gain for them at all letting him reach vesting option, even if they want him back.
CapSea - May 19, 2008
It didn't cost "nothing" to get him
it cost millions of dollars. For something nobody wanted.
Jeff Sullivan - May 19, 2008
No, that's not what I'm saying.
I’m saying that the Mariners outbid people, which is why they overpay. In this case, they didn’t have to outbid anyone, so they didn’t “overpay” with Doyle and Fruto, whom they didn’t value anyway, and they thought they would get 5 million dollars of athletic ability out of him, making it a normal fine deal as far as they were concerned.
On the FA market, though, as well as in trades, we often get players that other teams did want, where we overpay considerably for them because they are players that other teams wanted. For FAs, we often are competing with the Reds and Giants, and pay an crapload for a sub par player. For trades, we compete with the Reds and a few other teams, and trade a crapload of talent for a sub par player.
In this trade they sent two people they didn’t value to a different team to get a player back with a contract (5 million) that isn’t much to them that they believed he is worth, and probably still do. But since his contract is up this year, he is clearly not worth 9 million, and they know they could probably re-sign him for ~3 or less, even if they wanted him back they would probably not let his option vest and save 6 million, because there would be no competition for him as an FA.
CapSea - May 19, 2008
Original point:
Nobody else wanted Washburn. Nobody else wanted Vidro. Nobody else wanted Ramirez. Nobody came close to offering what we did for Silva and Sexson. Nobody but the Giants wanted Zito. And so on and so forth.
We pay out the ass for piles of crap.
Jeff Sullivan - May 19, 2008
I agree.
But my argument is that there is usually someone else that wants them, be it only one or two teams, and these teams are always bad teams, and we always try to significantly outbid them. We pay out the ass for piles of crap that one or two other really bad teams want, because we’re a poorly run organization that does everything wrong.
My point is not that we do anything right. It is that these are not players “no one” wants. These are players that one or two other, equally horrible teams want that we try and significantly outbid.
“Nobody came close to offering” and “no one wanting” are not the same thing. And I think in this case, absolutely no one wants Vidro, not even the Giants or Reds, and I think the Mariners know this and even if they want to keep him, they’d probably let him hit the FA market and then STILL overpay him because he blows but offer him far less than 9 million.
Washburn WAS offered a similar contract by the Nationals (at least, so says his wikipedia page – I have no doubt other teams pursued him). Vidro I already explained my points above, however poorly, and Ho Ram’s measly 2.65 million dollar contract is barely pocket change, so it’s only overpaying because he sucks. Trading Soriano for him was overpaying, but we dumped him like garbage for questionable reasons, and that’s an entirely different issue. All of those, minus Ho Ram, were examples of players that were pursued by other teams, however few and however poorly managed, and we – like idiots – overpayed considerably to try to get these piles of crap.
“No one else wanted” is wrong. Some teams did, and those teams are also stupid, but we gave them those retarded contracts because we felt we needed to best the other teams’ offers. IMO, there isn’t a single team in the majors that wants Vidro right now, which differs from the examples above, and so the Mariners know they can re-sign him for what they consider nothing, but will probably be 3-5 million anyway.
(this is a weird discussion – are we debating the level of this team’s incompetence?)
CapSea - May 19, 2008
Is there anything Felix did when he was first called up
that he doesn’t do now, and is that preventing him from being the manbeast he should be?
off the top of my head
-he probably had better FB location and induced more groundballs
JI - May 19, 2008
Pretty much spot on
He had FB command in 2005.
Matthew - May 19, 2008
so who heard the Felix song over the PA? I need some proof!
Pics or it didn’t happen!! wait..sound or it didn’t happen!
kentroyals5 - May 19, 2008
I was there and so was etowncoug and wwbaker3.
I texted Matthew to relay it to Jeff. They played it right after lineups were announced.
BrettJMiller - May 19, 2008
They played sunshine lollipops?!
OlSalty - May 19, 2008
That's pretty awesome.
Right up there with KSTW using Doyle a few years back.
Aaron Campeau - May 19, 2008
So if they pay attention to stuff like that from the blogosphere
Then WHY THE FUCK WON’T THEY PAY ATTENTION TO THE STUFF THAT MATTERS?
Goose - May 19, 2008
They think reactions like this are hilarious?
Aaron Campeau - May 19, 2008
In contrast, the DBacks pay attention to their online community as well.
Or at least Daron Sutton does.
On a DBacks board I frequent, we had a thread on DER, and how the DBacks were 4th in baseball. That prompted this exchange during the bottom the 8th in last nights game. Shoewizard is kind of the DBacks version of Dave Cameron.
Sutton: Defensive efficiency…percentage of balls put in play that are turned into outs…0 and 1 the count…feel bad…big fan, Shoewizard…I know he was very excited to hear your reaction to that…
Grace: I mean…what’s the point of creating(?) this stat…that the Tigers are twelfth and the Diamondbacks are fourth?
Sutton: I think it speaks to athleticism.
Grace: Ok…deficient (sic)…defensive efficiency…I just uh…have I told you that Magglio Ordonez is a really good hitter?
Sutton: I’m right there with you.
Grace: He’s probably way up there in offensive efficiency…
Sutton (laughing) One and one the count.
Grace: Goodness gracious…I’m being bombarded by these meaningless stats.
Sutton: What’s his VORP, though?
Grace: That he can hit.
Sutton laughs again.
A pitch or two later Ordonez grounds out to Qualls…
Sutton: Now that was an efficient play…excellent job…
Grace: Fourth in the league these Diamondbacks…just ask Daron and Shoooewizard!
Goose - May 19, 2008
I wonder if Mark Grace and I would get along
Jeff Sullivan - May 19, 2008
I think it's funnier this way.
Graham MacAree - May 19, 2008
It is entirely in keeping with organisational philosophy
Concentrate on shiny accessories, leave the baseball analysis for another day.
Alex B - May 19, 2008
I would kill to have the PA guy shout "NEEDS MORE BONDS" after announcing the line-up
Alex B - May 19, 2008
And the next game, they'll show up like the Bad News Bears
wearing Chico’s Bail Bonds sponsored jerseys
seattlebruin - May 19, 2008
Consistency?
I’ll take some intelligence please. Ugh. I’m still mad over this. I don’t know cause this season is hopeless but still mad.
phil333 - May 19, 2008
My, don't we set the bar a little high
Jeff Sullivan - May 19, 2008
new week, new optimism
he’ll get over it. The rest of us have.
pdb - May 19, 2008
I'm excited for the Mariners 2008 World Series Champ parade
I’m going to fly from SD to Seattle just for it, and when Lopez is named WS MVP after going 14-27 with 3 HR and 10 RBI, it’lkl be the happiest day of my life!
Woooooo for Monday morning coffee-induced optimism!!
seattlebruin - May 19, 2008
my version of optimism:
maybe the Ms will start Reed in LF once in awhile.
Matthew - May 19, 2008
my version of optimism:
maybe the Ms will start Reed in LF once
*Fixed your post
Alex B - May 19, 2008
Me being more optimistic than you
Maybe the M’s will start Reed in LF twice
seattlebruin - May 19, 2008
Maybe Jon Garland won't knife me as I sleep tonight
Graham MacAree - May 19, 2008
I thought Jon Garland only had a vendetta against Jeff
seattlebruin - May 19, 2008
You'd wake up before Jon Garland managed to hit the target
Alex B - May 19, 2008
He strikes me more as the blunt instrument type
Jeff Sullivan - May 19, 2008
Does he use the blunt instrument before or after he has his way with you?
BrianL - May 19, 2008
I think he uses the blunt instrument TO have his way with you
seattlebruin - May 19, 2008
Ouch.
BrianL - May 19, 2008
He doesn't -strike- me as anything
Hey-o!
Graham MacAree - May 19, 2008
Zing!
seattlebruin - May 19, 2008
I see what you did there.
BrianL - May 19, 2008
please tell me he doesn't ball you either
pdb - May 19, 2008
He's probably more worried about balls in play.
Jed MC - May 19, 2008
Look on the bright side
If you take a swing, you’ll probably hit him.
Gomez - May 19, 2008
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