One hit a week gives vets all the PT they need. If a guy is under 27 he has to hit .350 to get playing time around here. Unless he’s a shitty defensive player then he gets all the time he needs.
An all-star 1B plus a good reliever for a no-stuff LH and a crappy fielding 3B is pretty bad, even if it is salary-driven. Tino’s not HOF material, but he’s not THAT far out of it. He’s in the Moyer/Boone class of being a fairly close miss.
I grant you defense matters, but we have a player who had an OPS+ over 100 on 13 separate occasions, 340 home runs, vs a 2nd baseman with only 5 years of an OPS+ over 100, 252 home runs and 5 years of sub 90 OPS+ during his peak years.
Tino is far more HOF worthy than Bret Boone, though neither are close. Bret Boone’s defense doesn’t make up for overall never being that good other than 2 of his years in Seattle.
Best during two seasons? Who cares? If you’re awful every other year, you really didn’t accomplish much.
Should Francisco Liriano be in the hall of fame because he also won Cy Young his rookie year, even if he spends every other day of his career in the minors? Of course not.
Tino has great numbers every year he played. Boone had good numbers thrice. Tino wins.
his defense may have been quite good, but it doesn’t make up for not being a good hitter. Brandon Inge is not getting into the hall of fame any time soon. And I don’t know how to look up Tino’s defense at first, but wasn’t bad enough to take away his offensive accomplishments.
But to factor in who is a better player you have to factor in defense.
A 95 OPS+ with great 2B defense is worth as much as 120 OPS+ With average defense at 1B. So they probably broke even a lot as far as actual value. Though as an offensive player, save for his late Seattle seasons and one year in Cincy, I would agree that Tino is the better offensive player.
But Boone’s defense annihilates that. It’s not like he was Mark McGwire. Compare Tino to his peers year to year and I’d bet you find that he ranked in the top 6 or 7 1B twice in his entire career. Compare Boone to his peers at 2B and I bet he’d have several more to 6-7 finishes.
Plus, Tino was never at any point the best defensive or offensive player at his position. Boone was at least three times, and he played a harder position.
And 14 other above average years, with significantly better raw numbers over a sustained period of itme.
Boone: 2 good years, several awful years, some meh years and 2 okay years. No good raw numbers, no good totals. Only other positive side was his defense.
and even if you only count the two really good ones… well Tino really only had two really good years too. The rest of the time he was anywhere from inoffensive to mediocre.
OPS+ is park adjusted…pretty much good for .270/.350/.460 with average-ish defense every year. Tino was better for longer and his best was better than Casey’s best.
Russ Davis, first year in bigs: .939 fielding percentage. His career average was well below league average. And I can tell you he wasn’t making errors on balls nobody could have gotten to, either.
as soon as it loads up you right click, choose properties, and copy the address. You then paste it into WMP (file—-> open URL). You must do it very quickly because the address is only valid for x number of seconds. I do this because I like to doc the gmae on top.
Or if you just want to watch in the flash window, all you need to do is click on the links and the player should load automatically.
Talking about the dirt path between home and the mound...
said something to the effect of the M’s having the same path due to the catcher wearing out the path to go to the mound to tell the pitcher to throw strikes.
What’s the point when all Howie and the crew will do is interview a bunch of retread “good baseball men” to replace Bavasi with? Until those jokers give up power to new thinkers the franchise is screwed.
I figure both Howie and Chuck will retire in 15 years
At which point Ms ownership decides to sell an Paul Allen purchases the team. Smart GM inserted, rebuilding begins. 5-6 years after that we’ll have a competitive ballclub.
So, in 20 or 21 years we can look forward to a good team.
With using the bullpen when you shouldn’t in order to save your job.. Funny how Grover did while up a run or two and Mac does it down by 6-10 runs. What does that say?
The final team bus arrived here just after 11 a.m. - two hours before gametime - and there were a lot of players on it. No batting practice either. Read into that what you will. At some point, these players are going to have to stop talking about doing things and just get the job done. And somebody’s going to have to get them to do it.
The way busrides work in the majors is, there are two of them that leave from the team hotel to the ballpark—one early and one late. You take the early bus in if you want to get some pre-game work done, like going over video, taking extra BP in indoor cages, getting some extra infield work in, that type of stuff. You take the late bus when you just want to do the basics, like regular stretching and pre-game BP on the field. When the team doesn’t have a morning BP before an afternoon game, you take the late bus in so you can have your morning coffee at the hotel, work on those crossword puzzles, catch up on some sleep after a late night out, that sort of thing. Obviously, a lot of players didn’t feel they had any extra work to do. Or, they needed more sleep. I’m not here to make excuses for them. Just telling it like it is. Hope you can appreciate that.
It would be difficult to get a fan boycott going; no one will notice a few fans, or even a few hundred, missing. But … unhappy Ms fans could pick a particular game and spread the word to boycott that one particular home game. Make it very public and if you can get the crowd down a a scattering of people, then a message is sent.
Who’s ready to stop bitchin’ and start a revolution?
Free agent signings under Bavasi include Raúl Ibáñez, Richie Sexson, Adrian Beltre, Jarrod Washburn, Scott Spezio, Rich Aurilia, Carl Everett, Matt Lawton, and Jeff Weaver. Some of the notable trades that Bavasi has made during his tenure as Mariners GM include: Freddy Garcia for Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and Mike Morse; Carlos Guillen for Ramon Santiago; Asdrubal Cabrera for Eduardo Perez; Shin-Soo Choo for Ben Broussard; Randy Winn for Jesse Foppert, and Rafael Soriano for Horacio Ramírez.
Ho Ram never left.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
I thought Turbo ate him in spring training.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Ate him WHOLE.
So he’s still there, inside Vidro, feeding off hot dog remnants.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Turbo like to eat Hos?
JI - May 22, 2008
HoRam might not be as bad as Washburn was yesterday.
At least he was less of a prick.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
And (as far as we know)
didn’t mess around with little girls
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
did I miss some news here?
InSpokane - May 22, 2008
Washburn is a pedophile.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Not a meme.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Nope.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
really?
InSpokane - May 22, 2008
She was 16.
Technically he’s an ephebophile.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
what are you talking about?
HoRam was king of never accepting blame for sucking.
Matthew - May 22, 2008
That's a long-ass single.
Is Gameday right on that placement?
BrianL - May 22, 2008
just about to ask that.
Matthew - May 22, 2008
Ichiro hesitated, and Ordonez caught it off the bounce and threw it in quickly.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Ichiro hesitated.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Fucking Pathetic....
I don’t give a shit how hard Ichiro hit that ball there is no reason that he’s not standing on 2B. This guys are mailing it in.
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
I suck at photoshop.
Can someone make a “Lisa Cuddy Throwing in the Towel” shop?
BrianL - May 22, 2008
You'll have to build it from scratch
use the Princeton Plainsboro logo
JI - May 22, 2008
Ichiro does this shit every once in a while
He’s really cautious to a fault some times
ack - May 22, 2008
Does Ichiro really have any reason to care?
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Come on KA
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
Nice BB
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
We so don't deserve to win this game.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
do we deserve to win any game?
InSpokane - May 22, 2008
Every game Felix pitches.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
true
InSpokane - May 22, 2008
nearly even split on balls v strikes
and we cannot score off him.
Matthew - May 22, 2008
We have 6 hits, but only 1 BB and only 1 XBH
A team of pussies could do better
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
The Angels?
Yeah, probably.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
No, I mean a team made up of actual vaginas
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
So just Reggie Willits, then.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Exactly
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
we're playing 1876 rules
9 balls for a walk
JI - May 22, 2008
Did you know the Royals picked up Ho-Ram with out giving up a valuable arm?
aestivalis - May 22, 2008
HoRam still sucks.
I’d rather have a can of delicious Sprite.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
I'd rather have a jug of horse diarrhea
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
Watch us not score any runs here somehow
OlSalty - May 22, 2008
Wr9iong
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Loafie!
BrianL - May 22, 2008
I think....
the M’s should get Brian Bannister and make him a player/GM.
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
But he is smart
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
Crazy, I know.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Wouldn't that be great though?
He answers his cell phone in between pitches, hangs up, and walks over to Jose Lopez and tells him that he’s been traded to the Brewers.
Manager pulls him from the game and is subsequently fired.
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
Hahaha then he needs to be GM right now
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
Traded for a delicious can of Sprite.
And Lake Geneva.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Over Under on runs scored this inning: .5
(Just to make Jeff mad)
ColeFitz - May 22, 2008
Over/under on bannings this inning: 2
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
6
ColeFitz - May 22, 2008
Over/under on blue
19
Graham MacAree - May 22, 2008
Red
ColeFitz - May 22, 2008
FROGS!
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Q to 147.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
The Mariners suck at Calvinball too
ColeFitz - May 22, 2008
Bonderman gets free passage to wicket five!
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Actually, I think it's >& to -{{~~
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
Sneeze
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
Bases loaded
Nobody out. Chances of this being an unproductive inning = 82%
ThundaPC - May 22, 2008
Awful...
and so predictable.
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
fuck
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Two productive outs!
JI - May 22, 2008
Are they Strasburg prodcutive outs?
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Don't you get two productive outs for a run scoring DP?
JI - May 22, 2008
Do you get Strasburg if you lose enough games?
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Probably.
I just don’t understand productive outs. >:(
JI - May 22, 2008
Ask Joe Morgan to explain them.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Let's ask him
Graham MacAree - May 22, 2008
I'm going to bet that Strasburg doesn't want to come here.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Who would want to come here?
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Hence 'Go M's'
Graham MacAree - May 22, 2008
Ah, good call.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Tell him to have fun in Washington.
JI - May 22, 2008
ha what gameday?
Matthew - May 22, 2008
bases loaded, 0 outs
Raul’s BIP is labeled “In play, no out”
Knew something had to be wrong. Turns out it was everything.
Matthew - May 22, 2008
It was in play.
So… Um… Gameday had that going for them.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Predictable.
Kirsten Schlewitz - May 22, 2008
God dammit Raul.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Improbable Suckage!
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
So bad....
Bases loaded and 0 outs….
The inning is over like 2 minutes later.
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
5 pitches to work out of that one.
Matthew - May 22, 2008
THIS WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED IF RAUL WAS IN LEFT FIELD!
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Yes. Then we'd still be playing the bottom of the second.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Just be thankful it wasn't a triple play
LantermanC - May 22, 2008
Where IS Ron Wright when you need him, anyway?
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
On the same...
house painting crew as Bucky.
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
I miss Bucky, let's get him back, as least as a mascot or something
Or he can have Mclaren’s job, whatever, same thing to me
LantermanC - May 22, 2008
OK, he is literally the worst player ever.
JI - May 22, 2008
Welp.
Fuck
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
Dammit Dickey.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Who could possibly predict Dickey isn't actually very good?
Graham MacAree - May 22, 2008
Stop crushing my dreams.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
So much for the amusement factor.
Kirsten Schlewitz - May 22, 2008
Matthew Joyce.
Who in the fuck is Matthew Joyce
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
I wonder if this is the most inept series in franchise history.
JI - May 22, 2008
no, yanks series earlier this year was worse than this
Matthew - May 22, 2008
Were we outscored by more?
and are we accounting for the opponet’s true talent lever, or current W-L record?
JI - May 22, 2008
consider the pitching matchups
and the lineups involved.
Matthew - May 22, 2008
Not by very much
OlSalty - May 22, 2008
I think that occurred during Sept. 07
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
The next one will always be worse
JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo - May 22, 2008
Like Office Space.
JI - May 22, 2008
Man this game is giving me a rash
again…..
Scruffy Lefty - May 22, 2008
NO
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
NO
BrianL - May 22, 2008
I know your saying no
but my heart is saying yes
Scruffy Lefty - May 22, 2008
Your heart can fuck off.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Robert will delete your post retroactivly.
JI - May 22, 2008
These god powers will be awesome
Robert - May 22, 2008
Penaten
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
who gets syphilis from watching baseball?
LantermanC - May 22, 2008
.....
Scruffy Lefty - May 22, 2008
Ha ha, his balls are his feet.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Fun fact!
2004 Mariners after 48 games: 18-30
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Fun fact: We lost the Upton race that year :(
Graham MacAree - May 22, 2008
But we won the Clement race!
JI - May 22, 2008
That's good
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
But Clement will be dealt for Mike Jacobs.
JI - May 22, 2008
That's bad.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
It comes with a free choice of PTBNL.
JI - May 22, 2008
Uh...
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
The PBTNL is below relpacement level
(that’s bad)
JI - May 22, 2008
Can I go home now?
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
I wish we all could.
JI - May 22, 2008
Does the PTBNL contain potassium benzoate?
JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo - May 22, 2008
More like patassium cyanide
Susheel Ramasahayam - May 22, 2008
Just like we will this year with Strasburg
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
To be fair....
the 2004 team had talent…
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
...or the opposite of that
JI - May 22, 2008
Disregard....
I read that as 1994…..
2004 team stunk.
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
Let's see...
We had Ichiro and… we had Ichiro.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Was that Player A
or Rich Aurilia?
LantermanC - May 22, 2008
Quick, name good players on the '04 roster!
Ichiro!
...
uh…
...
Graham MacAree - May 22, 2008
Boone, Moyer
shit, cock, balls (otherwise known as Pineiro, Spiezio, Aurilia)
LantermanC - May 22, 2008
Boone was pretty much done by 2004
Garcia wasn’t, quite, but yeah.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Ibanez?
Matthew - May 22, 2008
...was playng the field
JI - May 22, 2008
he wasn't always this bad
Matthew - May 22, 2008
He was still a big fucking dropoff from his predicessor.
JI - May 22, 2008
not Raul's fault
his defense was likely passable in ‘04.
Matthew - May 22, 2008
Yeah
I am (doing a poor job of) trying to get across that we willful made a huge downgrade to our team and most people didn’t take notice.
JI - May 22, 2008
Oh yeah
I forgot about him
Graham MacAree - May 22, 2008
(Boone, Moyer, and Edgar were supposed to be good depite being a combined 120 years old)
JI - May 22, 2008
But they weren't
Graham MacAree - May 22, 2008
I'm not disagreeing
I did not expect to win that year.
JI - May 22, 2008
Edgar will always be good in my book.
Thingray - May 22, 2008
The 2004 team had Ichiro violating the laws of time and space.
Not much beyond that.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Now we just have Washburn violating the laws against statutory rape!
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
Woo chase the dream!
Eyebrows - May 22, 2008
For Llewdor
since i missed the earlier question (damn you, work!):
The Mariners are 20th in triples allowed, with 7.
Top three:
Rockies 17
Dodgers 13
Jays 12
Eyebrows - May 22, 2008
Thanks.
And so is Washburn!
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Reed!!
MFAN - May 22, 2008
Yeah Reed
hopefully that buys him some LF time
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
Watch Reed not score.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
We've had the leadoff guy on base how many innings now?
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Are you kidding?
One hit a week gives vets all the PT they need. If a guy is under 27 he has to hit .350 to get playing time around here. Unless he’s a shitty defensive player then he gets all the time he needs.
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
Hey look at that.
We have a left fielder who can get basehits and can play defense.
Sit the fuck down on the bench, son. You’re not Mariner material.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
HBP! It's Kenji's version of a walk!
Matthew - May 22, 2008
Betancourt Pop up???
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Dude...
I sat like 15 rows down from that guy a few weeks ago. A drunk guy in front of me walked up to him and yelled “ICHIRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
Yay for the Pop-Up Twins (TM)
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
Raul has that.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
... off the wall
edddgar - May 22, 2008
I'm starting to hate this Joyce fellow
OlSalty - May 22, 2008
Yeah, I didn't like Finnegans Wake either
JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo - May 22, 2008
Oh bullshit
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
2 on, no outs?
Fat chance!
BrianL - May 22, 2008
2 On, So What?!
CapSea - May 22, 2008
No runs, one hit, two left.
Typical.
Thingray - May 22, 2008
One trade that gets a lot of shit, but probably shouldn't
(Tino + Nelson + Mecir) in exchange for--> (Sterling Hitchcock + Russ Davis).
JI - May 22, 2008
Well, actually, yes it should.
An all-star 1B plus a good reliever for a no-stuff LH and a crappy fielding 3B is pretty bad, even if it is salary-driven. Tino’s not HOF material, but he’s not THAT far out of it. He’s in the Moyer/Boone class of being a fairly close miss.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
huzzah what?
Tino’s not even close to HoF.
Matthew - May 22, 2008
Neither is Boone.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
He has a better case.
JI - May 22, 2008
Two years of above average play?
Me thinks not.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Two years of spactaculatr play
two more of very good play
several years of decent play
No, he’s not a HOFer, but he has a much better case. Defense matters.
JI - May 22, 2008
No.
I grant you defense matters, but we have a player who had an OPS+ over 100 on 13 separate occasions, 340 home runs, vs a 2nd baseman with only 5 years of an OPS+ over 100, 252 home runs and 5 years of sub 90 OPS+ during his peak years.
Tino is far more HOF worthy than Bret Boone, though neither are close. Bret Boone’s defense doesn’t make up for overall never being that good other than 2 of his years in Seattle.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Tino was basically a league average firstbaseman
Bret Boone was arguably the best player in the AL on one season, and the best secondbaseman in baseball two others.
His career destroys Tino’s.
JI - May 22, 2008
I completely disagree with this premise.
Best during two seasons? Who cares? If you’re awful every other year, you really didn’t accomplish much.
Should Francisco Liriano be in the hall of fame because he also won Cy Young his rookie year, even if he spends every other day of his career in the minors? Of course not.
Tino has great numbers every year he played. Boone had good numbers thrice. Tino wins.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
*almost, not "also"
CapSea - May 22, 2008
The hell? No he didn’t.
Wrong wrong wrong.
Boone had several good years in the 90s.
JI - May 22, 2008
find them:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/boonebr01.shtml
CapSea - May 22, 2008
1994...
MAYBE 1998, debatable.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
1995, 2000
defense FTW
JI - May 22, 2008
As I said,
his defense may have been quite good, but it doesn’t make up for not being a good hitter. Brandon Inge is not getting into the hall of fame any time soon. And I don’t know how to look up Tino’s defense at first, but wasn’t bad enough to take away his offensive accomplishments.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
except that Tino wasn't an oustanding offenseive player
JI - May 22, 2008
And Boone was decidedly below average in the majority of his seasons.
Tino still wins.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
What?
Boone was a really really good defensive 2B
BrettJMiller - May 22, 2008
we're talking offensive, dude.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
I'm not
I’m talking overall value.
JI - May 22, 2008
"except that tino wasn't an outstanding offensive player"
“And boone was decidedly below average”
These comments relate to each other by the fact that they are nested.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
But to factor in who is a better player you have to factor in defense.
A 95 OPS+ with great 2B defense is worth as much as 120 OPS+ With average defense at 1B. So they probably broke even a lot as far as actual value. Though as an offensive player, save for his late Seattle seasons and one year in Cincy, I would agree that Tino is the better offensive player.
BrettJMiller - May 22, 2008
Me too, I'm saying your point about defense was irrelevant to my comment.
Not that it is untrue.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Well yeah, Tino was a better hitter
But Boone’s defense annihilates that. It’s not like he was Mark McGwire. Compare Tino to his peers year to year and I’d bet you find that he ranked in the top 6 or 7 1B twice in his entire career. Compare Boone to his peers at 2B and I bet he’d have several more to 6-7 finishes.
Plus, Tino was never at any point the best defensive or offensive player at his position. Boone was at least three times, and he played a harder position.
JI - May 22, 2008
...and except for the obvious lows of 1996-97
for was a very good hitter for a secondbaseman.
I’d also ague that Orlando Hudson is a much better player than Tino Martinez ever was.
JI - May 22, 2008
So you'd say that if Orlando hundson retired today, he'd be more HOF worthy than Tino?
Because if you think that, you’re high.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
This subthread is almost as good as
Graham and Corco’s wilderness one.
JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo - May 22, 2008
I think that.
The O-Dog’s defense broke PMR, if you’ll recall. The dude’s practically an MVP candidate on his glove alone.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
No.
But I will Hudson’s peak destroys Tino’s peak.
JI - May 22, 2008
*say
it’s entirely a longevity thing.
JI - May 22, 2008
Tino was really really good though.
BrettJMiller - May 22, 2008
In the same sense that Sean Casey was really really good.
JI - May 22, 2008
Tino has far better numbers than Casey over a sustained period of time.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/martiti02.shtml
CapSea - May 22, 2008
112 career OpS+
FTL
JI - May 22, 2008
You have to see the irony in criticizing Boone for only having two good years
when Tino really only had two really good years to his credit.
JI - May 22, 2008
Of course.
And 14 other above average years, with significantly better raw numbers over a sustained period of itme.
Boone: 2 good years, several awful years, some meh years and 2 okay years. No good raw numbers, no good totals. Only other positive side was his defense.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
They're both very good players.
Boone’s best years are probably enough to give him a slight edge, though Tino was way more consistent. I’d take them both.
BrettJMiller - May 22, 2008
Tino was a worse hitter for his postion that Boone was.
and he wasn’t exactly Keith Hernandez with the glove.
Believe me Boone is a far superior player.
JI - May 22, 2008
I don't agree that two good years make a great player.
Without any sustained offensive success. But since we clearly disagree on that basic premise this argument is somewhat moot.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
HE HAD WAY MORE THAN TWO GOOD YEARS
and even if you only count the two really good ones… well Tino really only had two really good years too. The rest of the time he was anywhere from inoffensive to mediocre.
JI - May 22, 2008
I could've sworn OPS+ was position adjusted too.
But maybe it is just park adjusted.
BrettJMiller - May 22, 2008
I think just park.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
It's not positon adjusted.
JI - May 22, 2008
Career 112 OPS+
OPS+ is park adjusted…pretty much good for .270/.350/.460 with average-ish defense every year. Tino was better for longer and his best was better than Casey’s best.
BrettJMiller - May 22, 2008
Or his better was better than Casey's better >_>
BrettJMiller - May 22, 2008
Casey's best two years as basicall as good as Tino's two best.
yeah, Tino is the better player, but Casey is comparable.
JI - May 22, 2008
I'd put him up against guys like Kelly
“New York ballplayers who were good but not HOF worthy”
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
I can't leieve Bernie williams doesn't get HOF talk
since A) he’s probably worthy, and B) he was an irreplaceable part of the late 90s Yankee juggernaut.
JI - May 22, 2008
I'd pump him for it. Good offense and D.
He might be a better player than Jeter, and Jeter, overrated as he is, is pretty good.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Tino was replaced with cheap players that matched his production
and Davis’ defense wasn’t a problem until years later.
Davis was seen as a league average thirdbaseman, Hitchcock was a cheap ~ league average starter. Plus there’s no way Tino even resembles a HOF player.
JI - May 22, 2008
Uh, what?
Russ Davis, first year in bigs: .939 fielding percentage. His career average was well below league average. And I can tell you he wasn’t making errors on balls nobody could have gotten to, either.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
I don't think anyone knew his defense sucked until a year or so after the trade.
JI - May 22, 2008
Man, am I glad this team worked on its situational hitting
God knows that that skill would have been wasted if they hadn’t.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
I hope Griffey never hits 600
and they play that mlbtv commercial for 50 years.
MFAN - May 22, 2008
Fred McGriff is a more tragic figure.
JI - May 22, 2008
I hope he does it all in one game
So that it is over so quickly they don’t have time to hype it up more.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
I think there's a fault with my MLB.tv player
As I’m able to watch live games other than Derek Jeter’s.
Alex B - May 22, 2008
Mine has a bunch of stupid flash stuff that doesn't work
and I can’t scroll through games.
JI - May 22, 2008
It's crap isn't it?
You basically have to use Gameday to navigate the player.
Alex B - May 22, 2008
I use the links page, then is paste the game into WMP.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mediacenter/index.jsp#20080522
JI - May 22, 2008
Ah, cunning
I will do this in future
Alex B - May 22, 2008
How does that work
you copy everything but the java script part?
bluemax - May 22, 2008
you open the game as normal
as soon as it loads up you right click, choose properties, and copy the address. You then paste it into WMP (file—-> open URL). You must do it very quickly because the address is only valid for x number of seconds. I do this because I like to doc the gmae on top.
Or if you just want to watch in the flash window, all you need to do is click on the links and the player should load automatically.
JI - May 22, 2008
Ahh okay
so its the same as it used to be, just have to be quick.
Now if I could only figure out how to open a url in wmp11.
bluemax - May 22, 2008
you know what's awesome about mlbtv?
you can go back and watch Jon Lester’s no hitter as many times as you want!!!
MFAN - May 22, 2008
Jesus Christ Mac
why are you burning through the bullpen!? You have a fucking knuckleball pitcher!
BrianL - May 22, 2008
What're you new?
Mac’s bullpen strategy is to do the opposite of what is reasonable.
LantermanC - May 22, 2008
He needs more guys to succeed so Bill can DFA them.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Plus Mac likes having excuses
“the bullpen was tired” everyone is just tired…
etc.
LantermanC - May 22, 2008
I'm tired
Alex B - May 22, 2008
When does Jeff start starting the WPA charts at zero?
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
I remember last year when we had the Loss Expectancy charts
dbroncos31 - May 22, 2008
hahaha
Sims just made a funny.
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
What did he say?
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Talking about the dirt path between home and the mound...
said something to the effect of the M’s having the same path due to the catcher wearing out the path to go to the mound to tell the pitcher to throw strikes.
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
I love that he isn't throwing out the company lines
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
Sims is going to get fired.
We’re going to miss him.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Sims is becoming the next Bob Uecker.
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
GIVE HIM A LONG TERM CONTRACT NOW!
BrianL - May 22, 2008
And make sure the M's get the movie rights!
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
Side note:
Carlos Triunfel is back from his suspension, and went 3-4 last night.
Thingray - May 22, 2008
Let's try to keep this game thread on topic please.
...
...
...
I kid, I kid.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
My deepest apologies.
Thingray - May 22, 2008
Yes.
No success allowed.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
good news.
Matthew - May 22, 2008
So it wasn't steriods?
JI - May 22, 2008
It's never steroids
cue jpeg, please, someone
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
JI - May 22, 2008
Oliver Miller?
JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo - May 22, 2008
steriods?
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
No, steriods..
They are walmart brand.. cheaper.
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
Hahaha humorous spelling
OlSalty - May 22, 2008
I hate my life.
JI - May 22, 2008
So... Batista wanted to have a starting rotation where
All 5 pitchers pitched 200 innings huh?
What an idiot…
LantermanC - May 22, 2008
They're only going 2 innings at a time.
Can’t we just have two starters who pitch on alternate days?
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
We do.
We have two starters and 3 garbage.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Ah the glory days.. of April :-(
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
whats the chance...
That we return from this road trip with a new manager and/or GM?
tkballer22 - May 22, 2008
zero
JI - May 22, 2008
We need to extend Mac's contract first.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
And then bench coach him 40% of the time.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
I cannot figure out how we don't have one already sooo....?
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
GM no
if the team gets swept in New York there could be some changes in the coaching staff.
MFAN - May 22, 2008
I depends how loyal Bavasi is to McLaren
JI - May 22, 2008
I don't even care....
What’s the point when all Howie and the crew will do is interview a bunch of retread “good baseball men” to replace Bavasi with? Until those jokers give up power to new thinkers the franchise is screwed.
PLU Tim - May 22, 2008
I figure both Howie and Chuck will retire in 15 years
At which point Ms ownership decides to sell an Paul Allen purchases the team. Smart GM inserted, rebuilding begins. 5-6 years after that we’ll have a competitive ballclub.
So, in 20 or 21 years we can look forward to a good team.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Why are you so optimistic?
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
BECAUSE UNLIKE YOU I LOVE THIS TEAM!
U TAKE UR STATS AND GO BACK TO YOUR MOM’S BASEMENT U FA-
Uh.. maggot.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
[coathanger]
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
GO BACK TO THE PI BLOG WHERE YOU BELONG!
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
::shudder::
Optimism is scary
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
I felt dirty writing it.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Hey McLaren, here's an idea for turning this team around
Tender your resignation
OlSalty - May 22, 2008
Euthanasia
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
How I feel about this series^H^H^H^H^H^Hseason
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Using my jpeg to get recs
clever girl
JI - May 22, 2008
Will Batista be removed from the rotation before or after the break?
JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo - May 22, 2008
After.
We call up Feierabend to replace Washburn after Washburn shoots himself in despair when all of the concession girls are issued tasers.
So then we need Batista to eat innings because we already DFA’d Baek.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Down by 6.. Infield in... Awesome.
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
Hoo boy.
Mac isn’t going to make the trip back to Seattle now.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
HAHAHAHAHA
The way Simms called that play was hilarious. He sounded so completely unsurprised
OlSalty - May 22, 2008
This team is annoying.
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
My only regret is that we won't give up 30.
JI - May 22, 2008
GET READY FOR A FALSE HOPE RALLY!!!!
YAY!!!!!
Alaska - May 22, 2008
Here's a question
Would you rather us lose every game 10-3 from here on out, or every game 6-5 from here on out?
LantermanC - May 22, 2008
6-5 if Wlad and Beltre homer.
10-3 if they go hitless.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
How would we score 3 runs if we go hitless
When we can’t even score 3 runs on 8 hits 3 bbs and 1 hbp?
LantermanC - May 22, 2008
Not "we."
Wlad and Beltre.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
So I just turned the game on.
Did I miss anything other than embarrassment?
Happybelly - May 22, 2008
A whole lot of embarrassme.... oh.. uhhhh nope!
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
Mass suicide.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
The nice spacemen behind the comet with rescue us.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
You missed the second time ever
that an LL game thread part 1 has linked to the new thread
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
Reed lost his glove
with a AAA move
Tony S - May 22, 2008
Man, defense is so cool.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
I miss good defense :-(
Jealousy reigns
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
I want a Raul FB to secure his spot.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
FB meaning.. chopper to second? MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
I want a Raul ground out.
So he can be buried in left field after his passing.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Ironically, this will improve his range.
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
This is a ballpark promotion I can support.
Raul deserves to be buried out in LF.
It’ll be out version of monument park.
JI - May 22, 2008
This game is so bad I wish Hawk Harrelson were calling it.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
is it wrong
that I wish all our runs we’re scored as a result of something Ichiro, Beltre, Wlad and I guess Lopez did?
bluemax - May 22, 2008
No.
But I’d add Reed to the list.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
I'd also remove Ichiro.
I really don’t care about how well he does. I like him, and I like him on the team, but I don’t personally invest any emotion into his success.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
I'd keep Ichiro in the list
because his success smites baseball purists, casual fans, and “analysts.”
Him succeeding makes them miserable. That makes me happy.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Well.. okay.
At least I personally am not invested in it, even if the outcome is sweet.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Hay, I have an idea!
We’re down by 7 runs. LET’S USE 8 PITCHERS!!
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Because blowing out your bullpen
before a Yankees series is an awesome idea.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Maybe Willie can get a start.
On the mound.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
He is the kind of gritty veteran who could succeed in a pressure spot like Yankee Stadium.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
I'm really starting to think this is going to be Mac's last road trip.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
It's starting to have that air of Hargrove-itis
With using the bullpen when you shouldn’t in order to save your job.. Funny how Grover did while up a run or two and Mac does it down by 6-10 runs. What does that say?
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
He left after an 8 game winning streak and under his own accord.
So, I don’t know if we know what the pink slip aura feels like with the M’s.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
But it only gets worse: Jim Riggleman will be the interim manager
JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo - May 22, 2008
Let's make Rob Riggle the interim manager.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
I'd say that's a good thing.
Riggleman will do such a terrible job he won’t be brought back for next season.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
FREE DAN ROHN!
Oh.. wait.
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
Cool a Brandon Morrow sighting
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
Damn.
That means he can’t take Washburn’s next turn.
Thingray - May 22, 2008
Sims likes hockey?
JI - May 22, 2008
CapSea - May 22, 2008
They are clearly very bored.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Gotta feel bad for them, trying to announce a loss night after night? No thanks.
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
For over a million dollars a year?
I’ll announce snail races.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
I don't think they are getting that much. Dave Niehaus probably doesn't even make a million a year.
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
He fucking better.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Niehaus probably gets paid most doing sponsorships and speeches.
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
If he does not make at least a million dollars
than the mariners are assholes.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
They aren't already with the way this roster has been constructed?
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
Being an asshole and being incompetent are two completely separate things
case in point – Bill Bavasi
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
But Howie and Chuck have played an integral part in constructing this roster.
They are assholes.
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
This team looks completely listless
They just don’t care it seems.. but hey! JJ is up!
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
Ugh. Why??
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Because we don't want him to get rusty and lose his command forever?
It’s not like he’ll have any games to save, he needs to pitch sometimes.
BrettJMiller - May 22, 2008
Well... Okay.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Eh.. ehhhhh?????
I am depressed..
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
It took this long
To get to depressed?
Kirsten Schlewitz - May 22, 2008
To be fair, I was asleep until about 11:30
Today started out to be a good day.. until I saw that we were already down by an insurmountable deficit.
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
That'll teach you to watch the games when you're in a good mood.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Noted. :-(
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
We're pretty much always down by an insurmountable deficit
since baseball games don’t start with -1 to 0 scores.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Great.
At least if Putz is rusty, he can work it off against MLB hitters.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
It;s a save situation!
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
Yeah, saving us from watching more shit.
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
We should lead this team to the gas chamber
Except for JJ Putz, Felix, Bedard, Beltre, Ichiro, and Wlad.
BrettJMiller - May 22, 2008
I think you mean [COATHANGER]
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
AND LOPEZ
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
Yeah, good call.
BrettJMiller - May 22, 2008
Save Richie Sexson!
Haha, just kidding
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
What is sad is that they make up more than 20% of the roster and we still suck.
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
It's Zyklon the Cuddly Tedd - PSSSSHHHHHHHHH
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
K!!
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
Wooooohh, too much excitement.
Tone it down a little, please.
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
Hahahah that's what I was goin for..
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
Welp - JJ looked better..
Yay small victories!
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
"Yay" and exclamation marks are banned for the rest of the day.
I am going to go hang myself now.
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
No hanging! more YAY!'s
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
Woot....
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
BrettJMiller - May 22, 2008
Dude, watch where you're pointing that thing!
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
Haha Cairo pinch hitting
and WFB on deck..
seattlesundevil - May 22, 2008
Aaaaannnnd... That's the sweep.
Thingray - May 22, 2008
Well that was an embarassing series
OlSalty - May 22, 2008
Well this is an embarrassing season
*fixed your post
BrettJMiller - May 22, 2008
Well this is an embarrassing franchise
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
This was whole new levels of embarassment though
OlSalty - May 22, 2008
You apparently missed the late 80's/early 90's.
CapSea - May 22, 2008
Oh I don't doubt that many of those teams were worse
But I doubt they were ever expected to be playoff contenders, and I bet they put a bad team on the field for a lot less money.
If I could consult the chart for a moment:
Expectations + $$$$$$$$$$$$ <—-—-—-—-——Embarassment —-—-—-—-—-—-—--> On field performance
No expectations + $$ <—-Embarassment-—>
As you can see, this is far more embarassing.
OlSalty - May 22, 2008
Really? I didn't watch any of it.
Reading through the GT’s kept me entertained, though.
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
So, for the next LL night
is black tie and paper bag over the head the correct dress combination?
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
We want screenshots if this happens!
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
I can do this.
Tuxedos from Value Village FTW.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
You mis-spelled "plastic"
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
No, I'm pretty sure suicide isn't acceptable or family-friendly,
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
This team is not family friendly
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
AAAAAAND we've hit double digits back from first in May.
plus the ever so popular “keeping pace with the 2004 Mariners” mark.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
So at this point, we need to win 30 of our next 40 to even sniff any sort of comeback possibility.
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
I think sniffing glue or paint thinner is a lot more likely to happen.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
I honestly don't think that would be enough.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Mariners Baseball: more painful than being attacked by rabid sewer weasels
JoeyJoJoJuniorShabadoo - May 22, 2008
Red Sox have two grand slams so far today in 6 innings of play.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
And they're far enough ahead they're letting Craig Hansen pitch.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Heh
What a rubbish first-round draft-pick
Alex B - May 22, 2008
Good news
Dave Cameron will be on KJR tomorrow at 3:35.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Let me summarize what Dave will say
The Mariners suck
The end.
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
Is he previewing the 2009 season?
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
Wow, Baker writes something interesting AND snarky.
http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mariners/2008/05/mariners_at_detroit_tigers_052_2.html#more
Your Seattle Mariners: mailing it in for 2008.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Wouldn't you?
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Not if I wanted to keep my job. This is the kind of thing that gets people fired.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
It must be nice to have a longterm contract.
JI - May 22, 2008
There are days I wish baseball had non-guaranteed contracts like the NFL.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
I never wish that.
The players earn their money by being awesome.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Bavasi and McLaren have long term contracts?
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
I thought we were talking about the players.
JI - May 22, 2008
And I know, yes, they aren't players. They do get to decide who's on the roster, though.
Keep in mind guys like Spiezio and Cirillo got dumped fast.
This is EXACTLY the sort of stuff that give you major housecleanings.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
I don't remember them getting dumped fast.
JI - May 22, 2008
Well, this IS the M's we are talking about here.
Better example might be WIlkerson.
I’ll go on the record that we’ll see players dumped by the All-Star break. And I don’t mean Baek or Dickey, either.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Cirillo was here two whole years.
JI - May 22, 2008
OK, so maybe someone goes to the DL with acute suckitis
much like Cirillo and Spiezio did at one point or another.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Cirillo most certainly wasn't dumped fast.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Taking a team-organised bus gets you fired?
Alex B - May 22, 2008
Read it again.
“Obviously, a lot of players didn’t feel they had any extra work to do.”
This, after generally looking like crap for two games.
eponymous_coward - May 22, 2008
Maybe they felt they sucked because they were tired
so decided to get extra sleep.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
But why would they get fired?
If management wants the players getting to the ballpark early then they should just cancel the late bus until further notice.
Alex B - May 22, 2008
Or are you saying that the late bus is a trap?
Alex B - May 22, 2008
Well, if you are making $3+ million a year in guaranteed money, I don't think getting fired and finding another job would be so bad.
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
I get the impression that none of these players have faith in their leadership
And it’s translating into general apathy and laziness in their play on the field.
OlSalty - May 22, 2008
I get the feeling that none of these players have any talent
And it’s translating into general suckitude and crappiness in their play on the field
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
I wouldn't want to get out of bed.
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
Hahahaha
Boycott the games!
It would be difficult to get a fan boycott going; no one will notice a few fans, or even a few hundred, missing. But … unhappy Ms fans could pick a particular game and spread the word to boycott that one particular home game. Make it very public and if you can get the crowd down a a scattering of people, then a message is sent.
Who’s ready to stop bitchin’ and start a revolution?
Uh… the fans are ALREADY boycotting the games…
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
No they're not.
Safeco will draw enough soccer moms and children to keep Lincoln and Armstrong’s jobs safe.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
What did I tell you about being optimistic?
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
Wikipedia is amazing
look at all the suck rolled into one place
seattlebruin - May 22, 2008
Logan?
JI - May 22, 2008
Ha.
I see what you did there.
BrianL - May 22, 2008
Seriously
he’s the only person who would fixate on the Choo/Broussard trade.
JI - May 22, 2008
Logie, Logie, Logie.
Every time Dave Cameron or Jeff blinks he starts foaming at the mouth. So much vitriolic rage in one person…
BrianL - May 22, 2008
That Garcia trade was awesome.
Llewdor - May 22, 2008
Yeah, just none of the players in return panned out.
Not Bavasi’s fault. And Garcia hasn’t done much since being traded (I know winning a WS, but it’s not like he was a main factor).
Wilder. - May 22, 2008
Not true.
He was 14-8, threw over 225 innings in 05. Won 17 in ‘06.
And he’s available.
Paytheline - May 22, 2008
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