And that is Beer Truck’s strongest suit. As much as I love Weaver, he’s probably losing his job. Between Duckett and Beer Truck, they’ve pretty much replaced him.
yeah Weaver has lead-blocking issues. I’m still not convinced Schmitt is the better fullback, though. Lots of hype right now, we’ll see how it plays out.
Right up until the draft I had his jersey on my “gotta get one” list. But I think he’s in real trouble this year unless he just blows everyone away in camp.
I went to see Night of the Hunter at SIFF Cinema instead of watching the game tonight.
First thing I heard when I got in the car was Niehaus saying “Bloomquist on deck, he’ll pinch hit for Clement here in the bottom of the 9th with the Rangers leadin 2-0.” I stopped paying attention at that point. Didn’t want to ruin my good mood.
and I wish that Kim Warnick’s health would allow the Fastbacks to do the same. If the Fastbacks and Flop would get back together for the Sub Pop show I would pretty much self destruct with joy.
The Fastbacks are the reason that music was invented
I’ve seen the Fastbacks more times than I can count. They were always unbelievable. By the way, in case you’re interested, Kurt’s (newest) new band, Thee Sgt Major III, is playing at Jules Mae’s tomorrow night – I saw Sgt Major once, and apparently the new lineup’s still pretty good.
1. It was extremely demoralizing. We looked like a high school team facing a pro team tonight.
2. We have basically our 1-4 hitters who I think can actually do anything, then what is basically a black hole 5-9.
3. Brandon Morrow takes so long to pitch he might as well bring a fucking picnic with him. It’s fucking ridiculous.
4. There’s no fucking way we’re contending for anything other than last place this year. Our offense is terrible.
5. With the way this team is put together, why would free agents want to come here? We’re ignored by the (national) press, our team travels more than any other team, we lose constantly and the weather sucks for half the season. I truly don’t see how we can get guys to want to come here other than throwing tons of money at them.
6. Safeco was fucking EMPTY. I think I’ve had more people over at my house to watch a game. I can’t blame people for not showing up. The stadium is cold, the team sucks, the stupid kid friendly atmosphere is oppressive and ‘refreshments’ are insanely expensive.
7. The ump looked like his strike zone was inconsistent. I was pretty close to the action (22nd row about even with the mound) but I couldn’t tell for sure.
8. Watching Clement and Betancourt eat called third strikes in what everyone knew was our only chance to score was mind destroyingly frustrating and depressing.
9. WFB as a pinch hitter? Why bother. Seriously, if you think that’s a good option, don’t pinch hit him, argue with the ump, get thrown out of the game, drive to a gun store and buy a high powered assault rifle, return to the stadium and kill everyone but Ichiro, Beltre, Bedard, Felix, Putz and Red.
10. Squinty’s tantrum with the umpire was pathetic.
had legit playoff aspirations this year? We always thought the Angels would win it; we’re just finding out a bit sooner than we thought. While that sucks, and I’m not downplaying how shitty they’ve looked, there are upsides to this as well. I mean, there must be, right? Probably?
I’m going to Felix night tonight, and I’m going to have a great time, just the same as if I hadn’t seen these past two [procedures].
But do you really think that hitting this poorly is predictable or sustainable? Eventually, someone will start hitting or (praying) the management will be smart enough to bring someone up who will. I think at this point we’re looking at 72-76 wins. This is the pace we seem to be on. Other than that, we have successful playoff caliber pitching. I hope it continues while our bats try to catch up.
im not going to lie. i have been a loyal fan of the mariners for a while, but I am just starting to learn about real baseball. Football is my game, baseball is my newborn sports love. so forgive my ignorance and feel free to point and laugh but remember i have much to learn.
Anyway, i dont think that the number of runs is really that telling. if you can score the runs, but your pitching is haveing an off night and you lose 23-22, you still lose. if you hold your opponent to 2 runs, but score none, you still lose. I think that while offense is a good measure of a team, for the mariners, it is all situational more than anything else. Look at how many 1 run games we have lost and the fact that we have never overcome a 2 run deficit this entire season.
provides a fairly good indicator as to where the team will finish up when the season is over. Unfortunately this is a very foreign idea to a lot of people, including our front office.
- one run games are basically luck and everyone goes about .500 in them at the end of the year. Same with situational hitting. It’s just luck, and the M’s have had bad luck so far. Of course, the offense sucks, but you’d have expected the team to win a few more of the one run games so far then they have.
- a run saved is certainly worth the same as a run scored, but the goodness of the rotation was never in doubt. It was always the offense that was the problem. What Brian is saying is that we projected the team to not hit at the start of the year, and they’re proving us (well, Jeff and Derek and Dave and Graham) right.
Basically, unless the offense shows drastic improvement, we’re not going to win. We’re going to have to hit better and get luckier, but we’re at that point in the season where it really has to happen now or it’s over.
well hopefully we even out with the 1 run games. if im not mistaken, by about game 140 last year when we were just making the playoff push only to fall flat on our faces, we were doing really well in the 1 run column. maybe we have to pay the luk debt this season.
I still dont understand the expected runs thing that Brian is talking about. itll try to read up on it.
And yeah, im starting to get the feeling that all is lost if we dont start winning. Even though we’re in a weaker league, it will still be hard. Hopefully we can pull a Yankees or Phillies like they did last year… but not likely. The nice thing about football is that you can go on an 0-5 slide and still win the super bowl… the giants. anyway, i hope we get out of this real soon.
Maybe someone could point me in the direction of some good pointers on how to understand this game a little better.
Hmmm depends exactly what kind of stuff you're looking for
but there’s TONS of helpful links around this blogosphere. I’ll try and dig some up for you in a bit.
About the expected runs thing, using projection systems we can guesstimate the approximate amount of runs that a team will both score and allow in any given season. 750-775 is average, anything above 800 is solidly good, anything below 700 is awful. Also, there’s a stable relationship between run differential for a season and wins for that season (what we call the Pythagorean Expectation). When we projected this season’s M’s the value was about 683 runs, which is A. awful and B. seemed much too low. Turns out they may have been right, because this team can’t hit.
it’s a book that converted a lot of people (myself included) to statistical analysis within the game. Others here will have some more useful links, but Moneyball is a good primer.
read Moneyball – if you don’t agree with the central tenants about statistical analysis, it’s probably better to just stay on the “enjoy the team” side, but if you find you want to learn more about saber stuff, there’s just a truckload of useful stuff between here, USSM, fangraphs, The Hardball Times, etc.
wow, great support here. you guys have been really helpful and have given me plenty to start with. and you guys seem to know plenty, so thanks a lot.
Im a numbers guy, so I really do believe in them so i think that this is a great place to start.
I have always loved the Mariners. My mom started taking me to about 10 to 12 games a year when I was 8. I instantly fell in love with our great teams and players of the past other than just Griffey and the rest. I got to meet a lot of players, including Edgar, Griffey, etc. My favorite when I was younger was Joey Cora, he still is in my top 5 mariners, partly because when I met him, he was so nice. I was at an A’s-Mariners game and before the game, my mom took me to the 3rd base side of the dome and let me meet some of the mariners. I met Joey and he asked me who my favorite player was and I happened to say him. Then he pulled out a baseball and went over to some of the ‘93 A’s and asked them to sign it. It has McGuire, both of the Hendersons, Ruben Sierra, lol, and even Tony LaRussa. Nice guy!
Anyway, even if the mariners suck, i can at least say that they have had some pretty decent guys… A-Rod included. In my experience, hes a pretty nice guy. He used to go to a pub that my moms friend owned or managed or something.
Oh, and if you ever have random questions, this is a great place to ask
there are people here who know a LOT more than BrianL or myself – you’re just getting stuck with us because it’s 10 AM and no one else is paying attention to the site right now.
It's truly remarkable how bad we've been given how good the starting pitching is
besides the random Batista/Washburn meltdowns, they’ve been very, very good. If we scored four runs every single game, we’d probably have quite a few more wins right now.
Graham. You go call him insane/optimistic. I’ll bask in the glow of my SLIGHTLY more pessimistic forecast looking more accurate to this point. You know, Graham needs to go through six kinds of mathematical gymnastics to arrive at projections that are really only hazy approximations of my far more accurate hunches.
Yeah, yeah, that Librocrat guy’s projections look almost spooky now, and I may have to pay up that $1.05 or whatever it was. But still, this principle is worth it.
In my defence I did say that any injuries to certain key players would kill our season
But I missed way high on offence so far, probably because I forgot to do collapse scenarios and just went for median projections on offence all ‘round. Whoops.
The offensive production to date has been flukishly poor. Again, maybe I/we are wrong, but I think some regression will help.
Equivalently worrying is that our prediction that the team defense would regress towards the mean has not happened. At all. I want to understand why; can a LF and a 1B make THAT much difference? Just how little range does Yuni have?
Especially the way it’s been happening. I know it’s sucked to actually watch the games but rolling out of bed praying for a win and checking the scores has been so painful since the first series.
Honestly, I didn’t think the offense would be nearly this terrible. If you had told me before the season what we would get out of Richie and KA so far this season, and the results of the starters, I’d have told you we would be 19-15 WORST case.
I know the projections thought it was going to be bad, but I think the really frustrating thing is that it’s been horrible in an unexpected way. Yeah, Vidro isn’t good, and neither was Wilk, but I don’t think anyone anticipated that they would both spend a month hitting under .200 OPSing around .550-.600. Or especially that Kenji would simply forget how to hit.
I’m genuinely disappointed. I thought we were a 88-92 win team and potential playoff contender. I was wrong. So very wrong.
Those ZiPS projections Derek did that had Oakland beating the crap out of us in the standings being right so far. I thought for sure we’d have a clear path to at least a second place finish.
but falling short of that…well, there are diminishing returns for every loss below, oh, 90 or something. If we won 84 and the Angels and A’s got off to this hot start and we were never within, oh, 6 games, would that somehow make everything better? It’d be more pleasant, I suppose, but I just can’t get that worked up at the ‘loss’ of a mediocre, not-quite-good-enough season. At least this shit brings with it the possibility of wholesale change.
I know, I know…. change /= improvement (at least not necessarily), but I’m staying positive. The booze helps with that, you know.
when you’re being pressured into making one. For example, we needed a LHSP, so Bavasi went out and traded Soriano for HoRam instead of waiting for something halfway decent to emerge.
Yeah, the higher ups are a huge problem too, but the way Bavasi jumps on the first deal to come his way isn’t helping either.
and I completely agree that at least Bill is trying (even if he’s failed pretty miserably up to this point).
Eh, whatever, I’m not even going to finish this comment, because in the end, I basically agree with all the relevant points of your argument so I don’t see the need to finish typing.
How long will ownership tolerate management like this? Attendance down, payroll up, wins down… I know the Japanese owners aren’t involved day-to-day, but you can make a damn good business case that your handpicked managers aren’t getting it done. I doubt this hasn’t occurred to them.
I for one picked us to finish 3rd behind Oakland and LAAAAAAAAAA
Our offense got worse during the offseason. Our bullpen got worse. Our defense was not improved and due to the advanced age of some of our fielders you could say it got worse. Only our starting pitching improved. Not a recipe for success.
Look at the top On-Base Average guys on our team. Three of the top 4 are not on the roster anymore and Ichiro isn’t even in the top 5 and Beltre is the only one over .350. That is pathetic.
So no, I am not surprised at all. You know what else, I am still going to go to the games and a have a blast doing it because going to baseball games is fun.
I’ve resisted the urge of saying “I told you so”, though. This looked like a .500 team. Actually, it still does- it’s just that instead of a .500 team that goes 88-74 because it’s lucky and gets a bunch of breaks, it’s a .500 team that goes 74-88 because it’s unlucky and gets a bunch of BAD breaks.
They’ll get lucky near the end. This, of course, implies there is no fire sale. I don’t at all expect one, but that is the only way I’ll change my projection.
how bad does that Putz injury before the Baltimore series look now? If he’s healthy that series we’re at least 2 games better right now and not completely giving up hope…
Fundamentally, this is not a contending team. Minus Guillen, with Vidro finally being Mr. Regression to the Mean, and without any offense at C, you have an offense that’s anywhere from bad to horrific at 4 positions: RF, C, 1B, DH. You have a defense that’s terrible in LF and at 1B, and is fundamentally below average. The starting pitching is good at 1-2, but pretty mediocre at 3-4-5 (and made even worse by the bad defense), but the bullpen is weaker than last year.
I’d say Silva/Washburn/Batista are what they are: mediocre, not particularly distinguished stuffwise, dependent on their defense to make them look good. I suppose I could have added “overpaid”, but I wasn’t talking salary.
There is SOME benefit of being able to provide 180-200 IP of blah innings that will never get you in the Cy Young race- if you have a decent defense behind you, you can win a pennant. Heck, if you have a GREAT defense behind you, you’re Jarrod Washburn and the Mariners will overpay you.
“if you have a decent defense behind you, you can win a pennant” at 3-4-5. In fact, that’s how most teams win pennants with “good pitching”: great 1-2 guys who actually have stuff, and the 3-4-5 guys are innings eaters who depend on defense.
But I use my eyes more than anything when I comment on a players defense. And by eyes I do not mean what I see on TV. I have a very good gauge on what is good or bad defense and Yuni is leaning towards bad. It made me physically ill when I would hear Yuni compared to Omar. Yuni was never even close.
Loved the W/E graph, bullet points, and pictures. You are so right on so many levels. I absolutely loved the part where you explained ….. and ….. . The third picture down was hilarious! Definitely an endless amount of photoshop possibilities.
Keep up the great work and I expect many more write-ups like this to come!
And the “options” you speak of are the reason why people didn’t like the move. So your refutation has absolutely no valid points.
I’ll have you know that there is more to a baseball player than how he handles his baseball dealings, and how he works with the press and people in baseball?
Did you know that AHole is a real estate developer in NYC? Did you hear how he unceremoniously dumped about 30 mid-rent people on the street (a couple of my friends included) when he wanted to build his Bronx loft? I didn’t think so.
Like I said before, there are a lot of reasons that I don’t like him. The less rational ones have to do with baseball. The more rational ones do with life and how you live it.
My part of this conversation is over. I suggest that maybe you shouldn’t assume that someone’s dislike has to do with the one issue that you don’t care much about, and like to give other people shit about.
Did you hear how he unceremoniously dumped about 30 mid-rent people on the street (a couple of my friends included) when he wanted to build his Bronx loft?
No, this sounds like an interesting story – the main tenet of which (Alex Rodriguez lives in the Bronx?) I struggle to understand. Any sources/links?
When it happened, the local CBS station came out and interviewed my friends at their (my friends) request, but I don’t think it ever went got to the papers.
And yes, he has (or at least had, as of 3 years ago) a loft not far from the stadium, where he stays(ed) on home stretches. If you need me to find it online somewhere, I’m sure that’s doable.
He said he’d give us a chance to sign him. In the offseason, he told us he wanted 10 years and $200 million. The Mariners countered with 5/$100, but with only three years guaranteed and two team option years. The Mariners offered Griffey 8/$138 the year before, before we traded him. Not only that, but Chuck Armstrong wasn’t even in the area, he was away on vacation not caring about this. Hicks gave him his ten years and more money than he asked for. But I bet you if the M’s offered 8/$180 he’d have still been a Mariner.
You have to understand, when you say you want 10/$200 and the team you’ve already given a discount to with an extension to buy out a year of free agency tells you they’re offering 3/$60 with two team options to make it 5/$100 it is a slap in the face and shows they’re not really serious about signing you. I blame the M’s for this more than A-Rod. The Mariners saying they made every attempt to resign him is bullshit PR. You don’t buy into the other bullshit PR the M’s give you, why buy into this story?
I think it was ALWAYS about the money, protestations aside. And you seem to think I am cutting the front office slack. I’m not. It was about the money for them, too.
Because A-Rod gets far too much shit in this town.
I hate the Yankees but he doesn’t deserve to be booed here anymore so I have to do something to offset it. It’s been eight years since the Mariners low-balled him out of town. We shouldn’t boo anymore.
3/60 with two team options that could make it worth 5/100
He told us he wanted 10/200, and the year before the M’s had offered 8/138 to Junior so A-Rod rightfully saw it as an insult. Not to mention Armstrong wasn’t even in the city at the time of such an important event.
Some people will get mad saying A-Rod didn't come back to the M's with a counter offer
But given that we’d already made Griffey such a big offer a year before and started so low with him, I can see why he’d just say “Ok, they’re not serious about signing me” and walked away from the negotiating table.
I think the thing here is that a lot of us are the age
where we grew up with Griffey patrolling center field. Alex was never here long enough to develop the city wide love that we have for Griffey, and honestly, a lot of us are right at that age where it was like Alex was abandoning us.
I think that I wouldn’t mind Griffey coming back, if we got rid of Raul. If you think about it, they’re basically the same player. LH (horribly defending) corner outfielders with bad same-handed hitting.
I think having both of them on our team would simply spell death on days we face LHers, because you know neither one would be platooned (faces of the franchise!!!). So my view is one or the other, and with a slight preference towards Raul, who is younger by a couple years.
I am not interested in trading for him this year, since 2008 is a giant botched [COATHANGER], but he’d be a perfect fit for DH or 1B in 2009 on a pone or two year deal. (He goes to 1B if the team decides Mr. Face of the Franchise HAS to come back.)
Bavasi has pretty much demonstrated to me that despite his faults, he has integrity, and NOBODY trades 18 year olds who are that good without realizing they are damaging their organization.
To put it another way: I would bet the M’s could have made the Bedard swap with Truinfel instead of Jones, and Baltimore would have done the same deal. It would have also left us with a RF and in better shape for 2008-2009 (since Truinfel probably isn’t going to make an impact before 2010). Bavasi didn’t do it that way because he’s not dumb.
KGJ is going to be available as a FA come next year
I don’t see Cincy picking up his option. And even if they DID, no way does a 38 year old OF/DH with an option command the best prospect in your system in a deal. Yes, Vidro got Snelling, but he was at best a risky prospect given his injury history.
How many no-hit, no-field players are there period?
Wouldn’t you do more damage by sucking royally at SS?
Plus, since Eckstein has to play further back on the turf, wouldn’t his defense reach new levels of combustibility? Dud can barely get the ball to first as it is.
For some reason the lighting to the right of my cube is ridiculously low and the lighting over my cube is really bright. My eyes and head are killing me.
yup
JI - May 7, 2008
The five second sound clip that sums up the season
BrianL - May 7, 2008
The first part of this video
is me watching the M’s this year (NSFW unless you have headphones)
Phil Hatzenbuehler - May 8, 2008
SEA-HAWKS!
BrettJMiller - May 7, 2008
Engram's holding out >:(
BrianL - May 7, 2008
who cares, he won't skip any games. The guy is 35, he needs those paychecks.
ASUBoyd - May 7, 2008
At least I can trust Engram enough not to skip games.
I’m very worried about the WR position, though.
BrianL - May 7, 2008
There will be somebody else
They ALWAYS find somebody else.
Gomez - May 8, 2008
This is true.
They seem to do wonders with just about anyone at WR. Is that more of a testament of Walrus’ coaching, or Hasselbeck’s ability?
BrianL - May 8, 2008
As long as you're a competent, reasonably reliable receiver
You can succeed in that system.
Gomez - May 8, 2008
Boy I'm going to cry if this team abandons the WCO for Air Coryell.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
It's a testament to the system
like the A’s say, the system is the star, not the players
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Well Said
Fin - May 7, 2008
So meaningful it needs to be in multiple places
BrettJMiller - May 7, 2008
One of these players is not like the others
But still completely awesome
Robert - May 7, 2008
Weaver's on his way to stiff-arm you right now.
BrianL - May 7, 2008
I love Weaver though
I just would have done Placks instead
Robert - May 7, 2008
I love Plack, don't get me wrong
but there’s something about a Weaver screen pass that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
BrianL - May 7, 2008
we will all be saying weaver who
when owen takes his job
wadswerth - May 8, 2008
Weaver is a far more complete FB.
More competent in the screen-passing game and a better lead-blocker. I’ll take Weaver over Beer Truck.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
The jury's still out on the lead blocking
but it’ll be a lot of fun finding out!
ningwers - May 8, 2008
Really? Schmitt
is supposed to have very good lead blocking skills, while we know Weaver has been shaky in that area.
redwolf75 - May 8, 2008
We'll see.
All I will say, though, is that I’d love to see a Schmitt/Weaver backfield a couple of times.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Weaver's biggest issue is lead blocking,
And that is Beer Truck’s strongest suit. As much as I love Weaver, he’s probably losing his job. Between Duckett and Beer Truck, they’ve pretty much replaced him.
Thingray - May 8, 2008
Looking back at game recaps
yeah Weaver has lead-blocking issues. I’m still not convinced Schmitt is the better fullback, though. Lots of hype right now, we’ll see how it plays out.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
He is a rookie,
so you never know. But he was ranked as the best blocking back in the draft.
Thingray - May 8, 2008
Until that hype translates into performance
I’ve still got Weaver ranked as the #1 FB.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I love Weaver as much as the next guy.
Right up until the draft I had his jersey on my “gotta get one” list. But I think he’s in real trouble this year unless he just blows everyone away in camp.
Thingray - May 8, 2008
Hasselbeck is white.
JI - May 8, 2008
Tats isn't exactly black.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Not not Bobby Kielty either.
JI - May 8, 2008
Wheres Lofa?
Alaska - May 8, 2008
Far right.
Aaron Campeau - May 8, 2008
In Tim Ruskell I trust.
Someone convince him to GM the Mariners, too. Shit, forget it, just put the Seahawks on the diamond. They can’t be any worse.
The Typical Idiot Fan - May 8, 2008
I went to see Night of the Hunter at SIFF Cinema instead of watching the game tonight.
First thing I heard when I got in the car was Niehaus saying “Bloomquist on deck, he’ll pinch hit for Clement here in the bottom of the 9th with the Rangers leadin 2-0.” I stopped paying attention at that point. Didn’t want to ruin my good mood.
Aaron Campeau - May 8, 2008
You know that song?
Flop, circa 1992 or so?
”....I took her to see Robert Mitchum in
Night of the Hunter
Shelley Winters has a vision of
Righteousness from up above
She trades her children for the love
Of a preacher with a soul decay
(chorus)
Could it be the son went down to stay
The virgin Mary sold herself today “
marc w - May 8, 2008
FLOP!
I loves me some Flop. Flop And The Fall of the Mopsqueezer always puts a smile on my face.
pdb - May 8, 2008
So many good songs
Rusty Willoughby is rad. Tell me Flop will reunite for the SubPop 20 year thing….
marc w - May 8, 2008
Man, I wish they would
and I wish that Kim Warnick’s health would allow the Fastbacks to do the same. If the Fastbacks and Flop would get back together for the Sub Pop show I would pretty much self destruct with joy.
pdb - May 8, 2008
I'm glad I got to see the Fastbacks when they were still a functioning band.
Kurt Bloch is my hero.
Aaron Campeau - May 8, 2008
The Fastbacks are the reason that music was invented
I’ve seen the Fastbacks more times than I can count. They were always unbelievable. By the way, in case you’re interested, Kurt’s (newest) new band, Thee Sgt Major III, is playing at Jules Mae’s tomorrow night – I saw Sgt Major once, and apparently the new lineup’s still pretty good.
pdb - May 8, 2008
Night of the Hunter has inspired more great rock songs than any movie ever.
Okay, maybe that’s hyperbole. But that’s a great song, and half of the only good Murder City Devils album was inspired by Night of the Hunter.
And that movie gets better every time I see it. I still need to get my Harry Powell halloween costume together.
Aaron Campeau - May 8, 2008
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
That is all
Sportszilla - May 8, 2008
Don't care.
Stopped caring. Plan not to care again until next year.
CapSea - May 8, 2008
On the bright side
That’s one less game to endure.
Alex B - May 8, 2008
The M's used to make my balls tingle
no longer.
Omerta - May 8, 2008
I think you might be doing it wrong
SethGrandpa - May 8, 2008
They've never been the same since Stan Javier went away
Omerta - May 8, 2008
Or possibly very right
JeffS - May 8, 2008
Switch to Gold Bond
makes work hours fly by…
waldo rojas - May 8, 2008
I was at that game.
1. It was extremely demoralizing. We looked like a high school team facing a pro team tonight.
2. We have basically our 1-4 hitters who I think can actually do anything, then what is basically a black hole 5-9.
3. Brandon Morrow takes so long to pitch he might as well bring a fucking picnic with him. It’s fucking ridiculous.
4. There’s no fucking way we’re contending for anything other than last place this year. Our offense is terrible.
5. With the way this team is put together, why would free agents want to come here? We’re ignored by the (national) press, our team travels more than any other team, we lose constantly and the weather sucks for half the season. I truly don’t see how we can get guys to want to come here other than throwing tons of money at them.
6. Safeco was fucking EMPTY. I think I’ve had more people over at my house to watch a game. I can’t blame people for not showing up. The stadium is cold, the team sucks, the stupid kid friendly atmosphere is oppressive and ‘refreshments’ are insanely expensive.
7. The ump looked like his strike zone was inconsistent. I was pretty close to the action (22nd row about even with the mound) but I couldn’t tell for sure.
8. Watching Clement and Betancourt eat called third strikes in what everyone knew was our only chance to score was mind destroyingly frustrating and depressing.
9. WFB as a pinch hitter? Why bother. Seriously, if you think that’s a good option, don’t pinch hit him, argue with the ump, get thrown out of the game, drive to a gun store and buy a high powered assault rifle, return to the stadium and kill everyone but Ichiro, Beltre, Bedard, Felix, Putz and Red.
10. Squinty’s tantrum with the umpire was pathetic.
Smegmalicious - May 8, 2008
Just a typical day for a Mariners fan.
Fin - May 8, 2008
Thank you
for allowing me to view almost porn at work.
waldo rojas - May 8, 2008
Two observations about the game
1. Smegmalicious brushed on this as well, and I am NOT using this as an excuse for why we lost but holy shit was that home plate umpire terrible.
2. Why didn’t we pinch run Bloomie when Burke worked that lead off walk in the bottom of the 8th inning?
thewyrm - May 8, 2008
Because then he wouldn't have been available to pinch hit >:(
ningwers - May 8, 2008
Just sayin'
Faux - May 8, 2008
This team sucks
And Mac is just as bad. Ugh I hate our manager.
phil333 - May 8, 2008
It's all over!
ClapClap ClapClapClap
speedomike - May 8, 2008
At least Erik Bedard is great.
Jed MC - May 8, 2008
AHAHAHA JEFF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi5nCd1ZVrw
Jordan of Boise - May 8, 2008
God...
I’m not sure if I’m more ashamed of the season or that skit.
ningwers - May 8, 2008
The skit!
The skit!
Jeff Sullivan - May 8, 2008
Jeff's back!
At least something went right this series
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
JeffS got arrested for the Anne Frank picture
Jeff Sullivan - May 8, 2008
You gonna bail him out or what?
We could use more evil twins around here
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
The evil twin's still around
the good one just got locked up.
Jeff Sullivan - May 8, 2008
So, there's you the evil twin
and the pedophile twin?
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I hope you have enough fish heads to make it through the week.
JI - May 8, 2008
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Angry Senators Fan
From the related videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79QHUtFqaTE&feature=related
I’m sure Jeff can sympathise. Or maybe this guy isn’t hardcore enough by Jeff’s standards?
Alex B - May 8, 2008
did they wax him first?
JI - May 8, 2008
This has been a most unfortunate season.
Goose - May 8, 2008
How many people here
had legit playoff aspirations this year? We always thought the Angels would win it; we’re just finding out a bit sooner than we thought.
While that sucks, and I’m not downplaying how shitty they’ve looked, there are upsides to this as well. I mean, there must be, right? Probably?
I’m going to Felix night tonight, and I’m going to have a great time, just the same as if I hadn’t seen these past two [procedures].
marc w - May 8, 2008
Honestly
I thought we’d finish with about 85-88 wins and miss the playoffs. I’m now thinking that was insanely optimistic
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I agree
But do you really think that hitting this poorly is predictable or sustainable? Eventually, someone will start hitting or (praying) the management will be smart enough to bring someone up who will. I think at this point we’re looking at 72-76 wins. This is the pace we seem to be on. Other than that, we have successful playoff caliber pitching. I hope it continues while our bats try to catch up.
SeattleReign - May 8, 2008
According to Jeff
We’re on pace to score something like 687 runs, which is only four off from what was projected before the season.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
you bring up a good point
im not going to lie. i have been a loyal fan of the mariners for a while, but I am just starting to learn about real baseball. Football is my game, baseball is my newborn sports love. so forgive my ignorance and feel free to point and laugh but remember i have much to learn.
Anyway, i dont think that the number of runs is really that telling. if you can score the runs, but your pitching is haveing an off night and you lose 23-22, you still lose. if you hold your opponent to 2 runs, but score none, you still lose. I think that while offense is a good measure of a team, for the mariners, it is all situational more than anything else. Look at how many 1 run games we have lost and the fact that we have never overcome a 2 run deficit this entire season.
SeattleReign - May 8, 2008
Expected runs scored and runs allowed
provides a fairly good indicator as to where the team will finish up when the season is over. Unfortunately this is a very foreign idea to a lot of people, including our front office.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
The thing is though
- one run games are basically luck and everyone goes about .500 in them at the end of the year. Same with situational hitting. It’s just luck, and the M’s have had bad luck so far. Of course, the offense sucks, but you’d have expected the team to win a few more of the one run games so far then they have.
- a run saved is certainly worth the same as a run scored, but the goodness of the rotation was never in doubt. It was always the offense that was the problem. What Brian is saying is that we projected the team to not hit at the start of the year, and they’re proving us (well, Jeff and Derek and Dave and Graham) right.
Basically, unless the offense shows drastic improvement, we’re not going to win. We’re going to have to hit better and get luckier, but we’re at that point in the season where it really has to happen now or it’s over.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
I always thought it was worth slightly less than a run scored.
JI - May 8, 2008
Is it?
Or is my sarcasm meter not working this morning… :(
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Well,
I think since you can’t win a game 0 to -1, that a runs saved has to worth just slightly less than a run scored.
JI - May 8, 2008
This is news to management.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Hmmmm makes sense
someone might want to tell Bavasi this, though
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
woo boy
JI - May 8, 2008
It's incredible
I didn’t even notice “runs” and “has to worth” until just now. You’ve conditioned us, like the Pavlov experiments
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
I'm like Yoda without the wisdom and powers.
JI - May 8, 2008
So you're like all the other muppets?
BrianL - May 8, 2008
At least Coach would find him funny.
Faux - May 8, 2008
wacka-wacka
JI - May 8, 2008
hmmmm
well hopefully we even out with the 1 run games. if im not mistaken, by about game 140 last year when we were just making the playoff push only to fall flat on our faces, we were doing really well in the 1 run column. maybe we have to pay the luk debt this season.
I still dont understand the expected runs thing that Brian is talking about. itll try to read up on it.
And yeah, im starting to get the feeling that all is lost if we dont start winning. Even though we’re in a weaker league, it will still be hard. Hopefully we can pull a Yankees or Phillies like they did last year… but not likely. The nice thing about football is that you can go on an 0-5 slide and still win the super bowl… the giants. anyway, i hope we get out of this real soon.
Maybe someone could point me in the direction of some good pointers on how to understand this game a little better.
SeattleReign - May 8, 2008
Hmmm depends exactly what kind of stuff you're looking for
but there’s TONS of helpful links around this blogosphere. I’ll try and dig some up for you in a bit.
About the expected runs thing, using projection systems we can guesstimate the approximate amount of runs that a team will both score and allow in any given season. 750-775 is average, anything above 800 is solidly good, anything below 700 is awful. Also, there’s a stable relationship between run differential for a season and wins for that season (what we call the Pythagorean Expectation). When we projected this season’s M’s the value was about 683 runs, which is A. awful and B. seemed much too low. Turns out they may have been right, because this team can’t hit.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
I'd start out with Moneyball
it’s a book that converted a lot of people (myself included) to statistical analysis within the game. Others here will have some more useful links, but Moneyball is a good primer.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Also
Here’s the TangoTiger Wiki
All sorts of great stuff here
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Yeah, totally agree
read Moneyball – if you don’t agree with the central tenants about statistical analysis, it’s probably better to just stay on the “enjoy the team” side, but if you find you want to learn more about saber stuff, there’s just a truckload of useful stuff between here, USSM, fangraphs, The Hardball Times, etc.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
thanks
wow, great support here. you guys have been really helpful and have given me plenty to start with. and you guys seem to know plenty, so thanks a lot.
Im a numbers guy, so I really do believe in them so i think that this is a great place to start.
I have always loved the Mariners. My mom started taking me to about 10 to 12 games a year when I was 8. I instantly fell in love with our great teams and players of the past other than just Griffey and the rest. I got to meet a lot of players, including Edgar, Griffey, etc. My favorite when I was younger was Joey Cora, he still is in my top 5 mariners, partly because when I met him, he was so nice. I was at an A’s-Mariners game and before the game, my mom took me to the 3rd base side of the dome and let me meet some of the mariners. I met Joey and he asked me who my favorite player was and I happened to say him. Then he pulled out a baseball and went over to some of the ‘93 A’s and asked them to sign it. It has McGuire, both of the Hendersons, Ruben Sierra, lol, and even Tony LaRussa. Nice guy!
Anyway, even if the mariners suck, i can at least say that they have had some pretty decent guys… A-Rod included. In my experience, hes a pretty nice guy. He used to go to a pub that my moms friend owned or managed or something.
SeattleReign - May 8, 2008
Try not to let our game thread emotion scare you
otherwise this is a great place.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I don't think we're going to have to worry about game thread emotion the rest of this season
“Huh? Willie pinch hits for Ichiro? Oh well, already happened like six times whatever”
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
I think it'll be more remarkable when there IS gte at this point
unless meh is an emotion.
pdb - May 8, 2008
MEH!
MEH? MEHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Oh, and if you ever have random questions, this is a great place to ask
there are people here who know a LOT more than BrianL or myself – you’re just getting stuck with us because it’s 10 AM and no one else is paying attention to the site right now.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Holy crap we're terrible
Ask Graham, Matthew, or Jeff here. Head over to ussmariner.com and throw some questions at Dave and Derek. All five guys are great, great resources.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I wasn't right
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
Graham admitting he wasn't right?
My universe has been shattered.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Insisting that I'm right when I'm clearly not would be dumb
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
I know...still
world rocked.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
And if anything in this world is true it is that
You are smart. Also very amusing when sloshed on gin.
Sec 108 - May 8, 2008
Wr9oing
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I only proposed to one person on Tuesday night.
I’m so proud of myself
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
Improvement!
BrianL - May 8, 2008
And what did he say?
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
"Bugger off, ye drunk"
BrianL - May 8, 2008
She said
“Congrats on finishing. You’ve been on the gin again?
xx”
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
Quit calling me Jeff!
My name is Robby!
PositivePaul - May 8, 2008
Does propsed mean something different in the UK?
When I was your age and wasted I never proposed to women. My normal operating procedure was to try and talk women into 3-somes.
Sec 108 - May 8, 2008
I honestly don't think I did it on purpose
My guess is that predictive text turned a typo into ‘marry’ and things went horribly awry from there, because I certainly didn’t MEAN to send that.
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
Fine, Graham was wrong
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
that was me
Matthew - May 8, 2008
Whoops sorry.
Can’t quite remember who posted what, vicodin high.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
No, but by the time the bats "catch up"
it’ll be too late. Playoff-caliber pitching is irrelevant if the team isn’t going to score runs.
pdb - May 8, 2008
But...but...
pitching wins ballgames
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Actaully considering who Bavasi's father is
and considering how his teams won ballgames, our roster construction does not surprise me.
JI - May 8, 2008
It's truly remarkable how bad we've been given how good the starting pitching is
besides the random Batista/Washburn meltdowns, they’ve been very, very good. If we scored four runs every single game, we’d probably have quite a few more wins right now.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
You know who else had us at 88 wins?
Graham. You go call him insane/optimistic. I’ll bask in the glow of my SLIGHTLY more pessimistic forecast looking more accurate to this point. You know, Graham needs to go through six kinds of mathematical gymnastics to arrive at projections that are really only hazy approximations of my far more accurate hunches.
Yeah, yeah, that Librocrat guy’s projections look almost spooky now, and I may have to pay up that $1.05 or whatever it was. But still, this principle is worth it.
marc w - May 8, 2008
In my defence I did say that any injuries to certain key players would kill our season
But I missed way high on offence so far, probably because I forgot to do collapse scenarios and just went for median projections on offence all ‘round. Whoops.
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
Your logic seemed fine to me
The offensive production to date has been flukishly poor. Again, maybe I/we are wrong, but I think some regression will help.
Equivalently worrying is that our prediction that the team defense would regress towards the mean has not happened. At all. I want to understand why; can a LF and a 1B make THAT much difference? Just how little range does Yuni have?
marc w - May 8, 2008
Remeber that we're still working on a bell curve
Yes, things are likely to regress but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible for it not to, or to go in the wrong way. Just how things turn out sometimes.
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
Yeah
And I think it will regress over time the rest of the way. Doesn’t mean I’m not stunned at how this month+ played out.
marc w - May 8, 2008
Yeah, it's been pretty depressing
Especially the way it’s been happening. I know it’s sucked to actually watch the games but rolling out of bed praying for a win and checking the scores has been so painful since the first series.
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
I really thought we would make the playoffs
Honestly, I didn’t think the offense would be nearly this terrible. If you had told me before the season what we would get out of Richie and KA so far this season, and the results of the starters, I’d have told you we would be 19-15 WORST case.
I know the projections thought it was going to be bad, but I think the really frustrating thing is that it’s been horrible in an unexpected way. Yeah, Vidro isn’t good, and neither was Wilk, but I don’t think anyone anticipated that they would both spend a month hitting under .200 OPSing around .550-.600. Or especially that Kenji would simply forget how to hit.
I’m genuinely disappointed. I thought we were a 88-92 win team and potential playoff contender. I was wrong. So very wrong.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
You know what really surprises me?
Those ZiPS projections Derek did that had Oakland beating the crap out of us in the standings being right so far. I thought for sure we’d have a clear path to at least a second place finish.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I thought we had about 84 wins in us
at least that would have been watchable.
JI - May 8, 2008
That's what I thought too
but falling short of that…well, there are diminishing returns for every loss below, oh, 90 or something. If we won 84 and the Angels and A’s got off to this hot start and we were never within, oh, 6 games, would that somehow make everything better? It’d be more pleasant, I suppose, but I just can’t get that worked up at the ‘loss’ of a mediocre, not-quite-good-enough season. At least this shit brings with it the possibility of wholesale change.
I know, I know…. change /= improvement (at least not necessarily), but I’m staying positive. The booze helps with that, you know.
marc w - May 8, 2008
We're never going to get the change we want
until Lincoln/Armstrong retire or die.
Honestly I don’t hold that much contempt for Bavasi. Howie and Chuck are the ones that make me mad.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
It's still not OK to make a horrible move
when you’re being pressured into making one. For example, we needed a LHSP, so Bavasi went out and traded Soriano for HoRam instead of waiting for something halfway decent to emerge.
Yeah, the higher ups are a huge problem too, but the way Bavasi jumps on the first deal to come his way isn’t helping either.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Bavasi is incompetent, yes
but Howie and Chuck harbor blatant contempt for the fanbase. At least Bavasi is trying (albeit very poorly) to give the fans what they want.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
That's very true
and I completely agree that at least Bill is trying (even if he’s failed pretty miserably up to this point).
Eh, whatever, I’m not even going to finish this comment, because in the end, I basically agree with all the relevant points of your argument so I don’t see the need to finish typing.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
It hurts that I'm rooting for a team
that hates the fans. Just reading through Armstrong’s comments yesterday filled me with a sense of hopelessness concerning this team.
Go Rays.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Honestly, I don't think they like or dislike the fans any more than any other pro sports enterprise
they’re just slightly more brazen in their disregard for the fanbase
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
At least try to make me think you care
that’s all I ask. Feign interest in me.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I DO care you
Otherwise why would I spend my Thursday morning talking to you on a freaking baseball website?
YOU’RE SMOTHERING ME
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
"I do care you?"
Who do I think I am, JI?
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Prolonged exposure to JI causes things like that to happen.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I love how SBN tried to have automatic previews
and somehow LL’s typing got worse
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Me too
How long will ownership tolerate management like this? Attendance down, payroll up, wins down… I know the Japanese owners aren’t involved day-to-day, but you can make a damn good business case that your handpicked managers aren’t getting it done. I doubt this hasn’t occurred to them.
marc w - May 8, 2008
Just go tell the Japanese ownership
that Howie and Chuck are having a very public affair. That will end their tenure in a hurry.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
PHO-TO-SHOP. PHO-TO-SHOP
PHO-TO-SHOP! PHO-TO-SHOP!
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Here's a good source photo of Lincoln
PositivePaul - May 8, 2008
Needs a nude Pink Ranger between them
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
All part of the family friendly atmosphere at Safeco.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
See that red white and blue?
It would be patriotic
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Lincoln: We've got one mighty good team, don't we?
Blowers: No question about it.
Lincoln: Shame we couldn’t get one of those ‘95 players here today.
Blowers: You have no idea who I am, do you?
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Hahah
Nice!
PositivePaul - May 8, 2008
Alternately
Lincoln: Sure is a beautiful day here at the park, isn’t it Blowers?
Blowers: Please give me back my Prozak.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I for one picked us to finish 3rd behind Oakland and LAAAAAAAAAA
Our offense got worse during the offseason. Our bullpen got worse. Our defense was not improved and due to the advanced age of some of our fielders you could say it got worse. Only our starting pitching improved. Not a recipe for success.
Look at the top On-Base Average guys on our team. Three of the top 4 are not on the roster anymore and Ichiro isn’t even in the top 5 and Beltre is the only one over .350. That is pathetic.
So no, I am not surprised at all. You know what else, I am still going to go to the games and a have a blast doing it because going to baseball games is fun.
Sec 108 - May 8, 2008
Here here!
I’ll be there tonight, and it’s still an honor to watch Felix pitch in M’s blue.
marc w - May 8, 2008
I didn't have much hope.
I’ve resisted the urge of saying “I told you so”, though. This looked like a .500 team. Actually, it still does- it’s just that instead of a .500 team that goes 88-74 because it’s lucky and gets a bunch of breaks, it’s a .500 team that goes 74-88 because it’s unlucky and gets a bunch of BAD breaks.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
I still stick with my 78 win prediction.
They’ll get lucky near the end. This, of course, implies there is no fire sale. I don’t at all expect one, but that is the only way I’ll change my projection.
CapSea - May 8, 2008
Washburn, Silva, Sexson, Ibanez, Johjima? Let's have a sale!!
Jordan of Boise - May 8, 2008
How much for the dog feces?
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Johjima and half a Washburn
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
I did not.
CapSea - May 8, 2008
Go Brewers!
hcoguy - May 8, 2008
By the way
was Johjima available or not? I can’t fathom sending Willie up there if Johjima or Vidro was available to pinch hit.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
white flag
InSpokane - May 8, 2008
Fair enough.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
If it weren't for Felix, I'd probably have burnt down like six orphanages by now.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
And two convents
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
At the minimum.
After all nuns and orphans don’t have feelings anyway.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
And twelve foster homes
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
This list is getting awfully long.
I’m going to need Felix’s help at this point, he’s the only man who can dominate so many things.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
Felix doesn't burn things though
only incinerates them. You’re going to need a lot longer list before Felix will even consider helping you.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Felix burninates things.
Get it right.
Llewdor - May 8, 2008
No that's the Washburninator
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Phil Hatzenbuehler - May 8, 2008
I think the new site tag should be
“Nobody cares about the Mariners”
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
So
how bad does that Putz injury before the Baltimore series look now? If he’s healthy that series we’re at least 2 games better right now and not completely giving up hope…
bluemax - May 8, 2008
Also factor in Bedard missing a start vs. the Angels too.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
I don't see that it matters.
Fundamentally, this is not a contending team. Minus Guillen, with Vidro finally being Mr. Regression to the Mean, and without any offense at C, you have an offense that’s anywhere from bad to horrific at 4 positions: RF, C, 1B, DH. You have a defense that’s terrible in LF and at 1B, and is fundamentally below average. The starting pitching is good at 1-2, but pretty mediocre at 3-4-5 (and made even worse by the bad defense), but the bullpen is weaker than last year.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
"The starting pitching is good at 1-2, but pretty mediocre at 3-4-5 "
Uh
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
What?
I’d say Silva/Washburn/Batista are what they are: mediocre, not particularly distinguished stuffwise, dependent on their defense to make them look good. I suppose I could have added “overpaid”, but I wasn’t talking salary.
There is SOME benefit of being able to provide 180-200 IP of blah innings that will never get you in the Cy Young race- if you have a decent defense behind you, you can win a pennant. Heck, if you have a GREAT defense behind you, you’re Jarrod Washburn and the Mariners will overpay you.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
I should add
“if you have a decent defense behind you, you can win a pennant” at 3-4-5. In fact, that’s how most teams win pennants with “good pitching”: great 1-2 guys who actually have stuff, and the 3-4-5 guys are innings eaters who depend on defense.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
I like to call this "The Diamondback Fallacy"
Just because the Diamondbacks did it doesn’t mean it’s repeatable.
pdb - May 8, 2008
How does not having a good defense not improve 3--4-5?
And really, show me a team that has great pitching that’s not defense-dependent at 3-4-5.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
They're not mediocre for 3-4-5 starters
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
OK, so are they above average?
I could see the argument for that.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
I think overall they're a little above average for their rotation slots
Washburn brings them down a bit, though.
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
Washburn has had better performance than his peripherals for long enough...
... that I’m willing to go with him being another in the Jamie Moyer class of LHP who is generally going to do that.
Because his peripherals should have him out of the league- but somehow he stays.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
Washburn outperformed tRA by 0.09 R/9 last year
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
Over his career?
And if you assume he’s the 5, I’d guess he’s at least “mediocre”.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
I have no idea about over his career
I can’t run the algorithm earlier than 04 anyway.
And no, he’s about average for a #5 once you regress him.
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
Isn't average kind of the same as "mediocre"?
But yeah, of the 3-4-5, I’d put Washburn at the back.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
I think I misread your earlier comment
My bad
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
If we have a vaguely competent defense behind them, Silva and Batista might look pretty good.
Llewdor - May 8, 2008
Except for Richie, Loafie, YuBet, Raul, Wlad and Kenji, our defense isn't that bad
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
I think Loafie, Kenji, Wlad and YuBet are OK.
The other guys, though, yeeeauuugh.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
Wlad's a definite improvement over Wilkerson.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Yuni is not good on defense
The sooner M’s fans grasp that the better. We were sold a bill of goods on that guy.
Sec 108 - May 8, 2008
He was good
Then he Vidro’d us.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
He's still "good".
He’s just not AMAZING like we thought he was when he came up. Stupid fattening american food.
Thingray - May 8, 2008
one more reason to hate mcdonalds
InSpokane - May 8, 2008
I'm not sure if he's even good or average at this point.
With Belte having so many errors, I think Ichiro is the only guy who is above average in the field.
Jed MC - May 8, 2008
Isn't Beltre near the top
or the leader in plays made out of zone?
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Belte probably scores well and I really like him,
but he has 7 errors already. I checked THT and he is at the top of the OOZ plays, but is in the bottom 1/2 of Rzr.
Jed MC - May 8, 2008
Errors aren't the end-all as far as defense is concerned.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Sure, but 7 in 36 games is pretty crappy.
The stats I checked aren’t perfect either, but to me they show that Beltre hasn’t been playing his usual King Awesome style defense.
Jed MC - May 8, 2008
Maybe his thumb problem has something to do with this?
I believe he has a torn ligament.
Thingray - May 8, 2008
I don't think Beltre is a bad fielder.
I think the opposite, but he’s been bad this year.
Jed MC - May 8, 2008
And even that's debatable
but it seems like we have a lot of guys who are right around average, with Richie and Raul being the only two blights
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
I'd have to check the numbers,
but I think he’s at least average.
Thingray - May 8, 2008
Beltre's fine
just because he may not have been awesome in April doesn’t mean he’s not awesome. Defense fluctuates just the same as anything else. Maybe more.
Yuni is not good.
Jeff Sullivan - May 8, 2008
Is he "not good"
or “not as good as we thought he would be”? Would WFB be an improvement?
Thingray - May 8, 2008
I believe Yuni may very well be a below-average defensive SS at this point
Jeff Sullivan - May 8, 2008
...huh.
So how much value does Yuni have at this point?
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Three boxes of baseballs and two talented orphan children from Somalia
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
In terms of runs? Very little.
But if the Mariners were so inclined (which they’re not), they could use him as a pretty appealing trade chip.
Jeff Sullivan - May 8, 2008
Do you think that is why Carlos Triunfel is sticking at SS for now?
Jed MC - May 8, 2008
Doubt it
Triunfel doesn’t have a prayer of sticking.
Jeff Sullivan - May 8, 2008
Corner OF in his future?
BrianL - May 8, 2008
RH Setup man
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Or 3B
Wilder. - May 8, 2008
Part-time Moose, tranny ballgirl
Jordan of Boise - May 8, 2008
Triunfel is playing 2nd mostly.
I doubt he’ll be a SS.
Thingray - May 8, 2008
Ouch.
Thingray - May 8, 2008
I use defensive metrics to a point
But I use my eyes more than anything when I comment on a players defense. And by eyes I do not mean what I see on TV. I have a very good gauge on what is good or bad defense and Yuni is leaning towards bad. It made me physically ill when I would hear Yuni compared to Omar. Yuni was never even close.
Sec 108 - May 8, 2008
But we're favored to win the division.
Favored I tell you….
ThundaPC - May 8, 2008
The SUCK division!
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Great recap, Jeff!
Loved the W/E graph, bullet points, and pictures. You are so right on so many levels. I absolutely loved the part where you explained ….. and ….. . The third picture down was hilarious! Definitely an endless amount of photoshop possibilities.
Keep up the great work and I expect many more write-ups like this to come!
Wilder. - May 8, 2008
I think you can look forward to a lot more recaps like this one.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
I can't wait!
“Free Jeff Sullivan!”
Wilder. - May 8, 2008
At least there's still my second favorite hobby...
rooting against the Yankees.
Although with AHole out of the lineup it’s a little less satisfying.
That and I get more sleep. So that’s always good.
Faux - May 8, 2008
*Is still baffled by why people hate A-Rod eight years later but don't hate Griffey*
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
I have a lot more reasons than just...
his stay in Seattle, some rational, some not.
Faux - May 8, 2008
I should add...
that aside from the move, Griffey never really did anything else to piss me off, while AHole has done plenty.
Faux - May 8, 2008
Yeah, at least Griffey gave us options when he wanted to be traded and never was a crybaby about anything.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
Lots of ballplayers are whiners.
And the “options” you speak of are the reason why people didn’t like the move. So your refutation has absolutely no valid points.
I’ll have you know that there is more to a baseball player than how he handles his baseball dealings, and how he works with the press and people in baseball?
Did you know that AHole is a real estate developer in NYC? Did you hear how he unceremoniously dumped about 30 mid-rent people on the street (a couple of my friends included) when he wanted to build his Bronx loft? I didn’t think so.
Like I said before, there are a lot of reasons that I don’t like him. The less rational ones have to do with baseball. The more rational ones do with life and how you live it.
My part of this conversation is over. I suggest that maybe you shouldn’t assume that someone’s dislike has to do with the one issue that you don’t care much about, and like to give other people shit about.
Faux - May 8, 2008
The fact that you call him "A-Hole"
makes your argument seem unbiased.
JI - May 8, 2008
I thinksome people have a right to be biased.
Maybe those people, like the ones he evicted (and to a lesser extent the ones that know them), get to have a little bias.
Faux - May 8, 2008
Please enlighten us
Did you hear how he unceremoniously dumped about 30 mid-rent people on the street (a couple of my friends included) when he wanted to build his Bronx loft?
No, this sounds like an interesting story – the main tenet of which (Alex Rodriguez lives in the Bronx?) I struggle to understand. Any sources/links?
pdb - May 8, 2008
I haven't been able to find any in print.
When it happened, the local CBS station came out and interviewed my friends at their (my friends) request, but I don’t think it ever went got to the papers.
And yes, he has (or at least had, as of 3 years ago) a loft not far from the stadium, where he stays(ed) on home stretches. If you need me to find it online somewhere, I’m sure that’s doable.
Faux - May 8, 2008
I was sarcastically calling you a retard, since being mean is not okay due to TOS
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
Sorry, that's a little bit of a touchy subject for me.
Faux - May 8, 2008
It's cool
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
Because A-Rod is a robotic piece of crap.
Thingray - May 8, 2008
...who was offered a 5 year deal with two team options, with our team president on vacation during the offer.
This after A-Rod asked for 10 years, 200 million. We couldn’t even guarantee half of it after we’d offered Griffey 8/138 before we traded him.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
I don't blame A-Rod for taking the money
I blame him for being Eddie Haskell. Griffey had his faults, but he wasn’t particularly transparently fake.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
How was A-Rod transparently fake?
He said he’d give us a chance to sign him. In the offseason, he told us he wanted 10 years and $200 million. The Mariners countered with 5/$100, but with only three years guaranteed and two team option years. The Mariners offered Griffey 8/$138 the year before, before we traded him. Not only that, but Chuck Armstrong wasn’t even in the area, he was away on vacation not caring about this. Hicks gave him his ten years and more money than he asked for. But I bet you if the M’s offered 8/$180 he’d have still been a Mariner.
You have to understand, when you say you want 10/$200 and the team you’ve already given a discount to with an extension to buy out a year of free agency tells you they’re offering 3/$60 with two team options to make it 5/$100 it is a slap in the face and shows they’re not really serious about signing you. I blame the M’s for this more than A-Rod. The Mariners saying they made every attempt to resign him is bullshit PR. You don’t buy into the other bullshit PR the M’s give you, why buy into this story?
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
Again: I don't blame A-Rod for taking the money.
I think it was ALWAYS about the money, protestations aside. And you seem to think I am cutting the front office slack. I’m not. It was about the money for them, too.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
And if any player deserved the money, it was him.
This is why I stand up and cheer A-Rod every time the Yankees come to town.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
I don't think I could stand up and cheer for him
but I harbor no ill will towards him either
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Why would I cheer a Yankee?
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
There's a Cory Lidle joke in there somewhere, I'm sure of it
pdb - May 8, 2008
Only if he's flying the team plane.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
Because A-Rod gets far too much shit in this town.
I hate the Yankees but he doesn’t deserve to be booed here anymore so I have to do something to offset it. It’s been eight years since the Mariners low-balled him out of town. We shouldn’t boo anymore.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
How badly did we lowball him?
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Don't forget the part where Tom Hicks made it rain on him
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
3/60 with two team options that could make it worth 5/100
He told us he wanted 10/200, and the year before the M’s had offered 8/138 to Junior so A-Rod rightfully saw it as an insult. Not to mention Armstrong wasn’t even in the city at the time of such an important event.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
Jesus H. Christ
we have no right to boo that man.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Some people will get mad saying A-Rod didn't come back to the M's with a counter offer
But given that we’d already made Griffey such a big offer a year before and started so low with him, I can see why he’d just say “Ok, they’re not serious about signing me” and walked away from the negotiating table.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
You know what is more boring than our offense?
Discussions about ARod, that’s what.
Sec 108 - May 8, 2008
Agreed.
but if talking about ARod forestalls more BRING BACK GRIFFEYness, I’m all for it.
pdb - May 8, 2008
Ain't that the sad truth?
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I'm just really annoyed that people have such a double standard for A-Rod and Griffey.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
I think the thing here is that a lot of us are the age
where we grew up with Griffey patrolling center field. Alex was never here long enough to develop the city wide love that we have for Griffey, and honestly, a lot of us are right at that age where it was like Alex was abandoning us.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
For the record,
I think that I wouldn’t mind Griffey coming back, if we got rid of Raul. If you think about it, they’re basically the same player. LH (horribly defending) corner outfielders with bad same-handed hitting.
I think having both of them on our team would simply spell death on days we face LHers, because you know neither one would be platooned (faces of the franchise!!!). So my view is one or the other, and with a slight preference towards Raul, who is younger by a couple years.
Faux - May 8, 2008
I just take it out on Griffey
Robert - May 8, 2008
Just like them both.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
So I have two choices?
A stick in my eye or a hot poker in my ear.
Sec 108 - May 8, 2008
This is why I drink.
pdb - May 8, 2008
And as much as I agree on the love of beer here at LL
This why Whiskey is #1 for me.
Sec 108 - May 8, 2008
Sorry. Griffey for DH or 1B in 2009.
I am not interested in trading for him this year, since 2008 is a giant botched [COATHANGER], but he’d be a perfect fit for DH or 1B in 2009 on a pone or two year deal. (He goes to 1B if the team decides Mr. Face of the Franchise HAS to come back.)
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
We're going to trade Triunfel for him
and put Griffey back in CF where he belongs!
The sad thing is there is a possibility this could happen.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Nope.
Please note that Bavasi did NOT trade King Felix. He’s pretty bad at trades, but there’s “bad” and then there’s “batshit insane”.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
How hot is the seat getting under him right now?
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Hot enough that he might experience some hair loss
OH MY GOD WE’RE TOO LATE
pdb - May 8, 2008
That's okay.
Valle can help him out.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Doesn't matter.
Bavasi has pretty much demonstrated to me that despite his faults, he has integrity, and NOBODY trades 18 year olds who are that good without realizing they are damaging their organization.
To put it another way: I would bet the M’s could have made the Bedard swap with Truinfel instead of Jones, and Baltimore would have done the same deal. It would have also left us with a RF and in better shape for 2008-2009 (since Truinfel probably isn’t going to make an impact before 2010). Bavasi didn’t do it that way because he’s not dumb.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
It's not Bavasi I'm worried about.
How much pressure does Lincoln and Armstrong put on him? If they view KGJ as a way to put butts in the seats, something stupid could very well happen.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
KGJ is going to be available as a FA come next year
I don’t see Cincy picking up his option. And even if they DID, no way does a 38 year old OF/DH with an option command the best prospect in your system in a deal. Yes, Vidro got Snelling, but he was at best a risky prospect given his injury history.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
So after going through the Inside The Book archives
I’m beginning to buy into MGL’s idea that, when used as an outfielder, Griffey is the worst player in baseball.
Jeff Sullivan - May 8, 2008
Worse than Raul?
That’s pretty bad.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
...that is a starter?
Not even David Eckstein?
No field / no hit SS has to be worse.
JI - May 8, 2008
How many no-field/no-hit SS are there with everyday jobs in baseball?
Besides, you get a positional boost for playing middle infield.
Jeff Sullivan - May 8, 2008
How many no-hit, no-field players are there period?
Wouldn’t you do more damage by sucking royally at SS?
Plus, since Eckstein has to play further back on the turf, wouldn’t his defense reach new levels of combustibility? Dud can barely get the ball to first as it is.
JI - May 8, 2008
Yet.
pdb - May 8, 2008
ok KGJ has an ops of .695 whereas Big Sexy has an ops of .732
there will be better free agents next year.
InSpokane - May 8, 2008
No 1B.
I don’t want his legs trying to learn a new position at this point in his career.
Thingray - May 8, 2008
DH only.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
for someone else
InSpokane - May 8, 2008
It's probably inevitable that Griffey plays in Seattle again.
I just hope the damage is mitigated by signing him to a cheap 1 year contract in the off-season with the stipulation that he’s a DH only.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Bingo.
I’d be fine with that- goodbye tour and so on. And this team needs left handed hitting like the Mariner front office needs a clue.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
you know what's more boring than that discussing the return of KGJ
InSpokane - May 8, 2008
Debating the merits of cane versus synthetic saxophone reeds?
BrianL - May 8, 2008
yeah that's would be boring
InSpokane - May 8, 2008
ARod got this team closer to a World Series title than Griffey did
Robert - May 8, 2008
Game 6 of the ALCS?
They did that with Griffey on the team too.
Sec 108 - May 8, 2008
I have a dream that someday we'll force a Game 7 of the ALCS
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
My dream is bigger than that
And it mostly focuses on me not being totally gray haired when it happens.
Sec 108 - May 8, 2008
I dream realistically
my real dream is that we’ll score a run
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Why don't you dream for the Seahawks winning the next superbowl?
That’s far more likely.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I'm calling it within the next 5 years
Robert - May 8, 2008
If they can get a smart QB in the next draft or two
can you imagine how big our window of opportunity becomes?
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Because I dream by how badly I want the title
and in order, I want to win
1. BCS National Championship
2. World Series
...
3. Super Bowl
4. Final Four
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
ucla and BCS
epic lulz right there.
bluemax - May 8, 2008
They've got Slick Rick, though!
So the sequence should end up being:
2009: BCS title
2011: Rick fired after program is ruined by cheating and bad recruiting
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
There will be no BCS title
The Mariners have a better chance of winning the World Series than UCLA does of winning a national title in football
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
That's bad.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
It's not close either
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
That's good.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
Amazingly, this meme, and the Zombie Shakesphere meme come from the same episode.
JI - May 8, 2008
That's bad.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
But it comes with your choice of topping!
Phil Hatzenbuehler - May 8, 2008
I thought you said realistically
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
Yeah, you're right...
I guess I just hope we advance a runner to scoring position tonight. That could happen, right?
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Perhaps on a Texas throwing error.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Game 7?
JI - May 8, 2008
and he was willing to play dirty to get them to the series
Griffey wasn’t
JI - May 8, 2008
I'm confused
Play dirty? And exactly when did we get to a Game 7?
Sec 108 - May 8, 2008
2004
oh this team
JI - May 8, 2008
We weren't gonna beat the Indians and we certinaly weren't beating the Braves
We survive Game 6 and I like our chances in game 7 and against the Mets that year.
Robert - May 8, 2008
both years
JI - May 8, 2008
I had a bad feeling about the 01 postseason long before it started
Robert - May 8, 2008
I think that first lost to Cleveland was the warning signal for me.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Fucking Bartolo Colon
Robert - May 8, 2008
Because...
...it’s A-Rod’s fault Jr. Left.
Duh!
PositivePaul - May 8, 2008
Look, I love Griffey as much as anyone, he was my hero growing up...but the dude had a fragile ego
And still hates taking responsibility. Not to say I don’t believe him, but I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t embellish any story like this.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
Had?
Dude still HAS a fragile ego.
pdb - May 8, 2008
I would like to have Griffey back
then I’d actually have a reason to watch the team on Non-Felix Days
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
except that he sucks
so It’d be cool for a week, then it’d get really old.
JI - May 8, 2008
Which would be a week longer than I'd care otherwise
and no, I’m not advocating trading for Junior for baseball reasons. Sheer sentiment (if that wasn’t already clear)
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
I know.
JI - May 8, 2008
I'd like the sentimental reunion myself, too.
I LOVE Griffey, even if he’s a friggin’ wimp and probably wouldn’t help the team that much.
As much as I want Griffey back, and love him, I hate Barry Bonds and would even still rather have him
.
PositivePaul - May 8, 2008
I want him back in the winter
when the M’s wouldn’t have to give up anything to get him. Trading for him now would be stupid. Which means the M’s will do it next week.
pdb - May 8, 2008
unless we trade someone we won't miss
which is what a 38 year old struggling platoon outfielder should demand
JI - May 8, 2008
you've seen how the Mariners operate, right?
pdb - May 8, 2008
JI - May 8, 2008
You wouldn't miss Carlos Triunfel, would you?
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
//sarcasm...
PositivePaul - May 8, 2008
Buhner backed Jr's version of this story.
I will believe Jay any day.
Sec 108 - May 8, 2008
Ok, I trust Jay.
Maybe the basic facts are true, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Griffey exaggerated a bit regardless of what Jay says.
BrettJMiller - May 8, 2008
This article needs to die.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
So is it officially okay to be a Rays fan?
3.5 back of the Red Sox!
phil333 - May 8, 2008
It's always okay to be a Rays fan.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Do you guys want to be cheered up?
Soldiers have it too easy nowadays, happy Felix Day, and 50 death threats
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Out of curiosity
What’s Beltre’s BABIP since last Monday? It seems like he’s been ridiculously unlucky at the plate.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Which Monday?
.000 since this Monday. .130 since the Monday before (despite a 30% LD).
Yes, very unlucky.
Jeff Sullivan - May 8, 2008
Monday before, sorry.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I feel like I'm having a seizure at work
For some reason the lighting to the right of my cube is ridiculously low and the lighting over my cube is really bright. My eyes and head are killing me.
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Joe vs. The Volcano
Wilder. - May 8, 2008
I need to get disability pay for my brain cloud.
Jed MC - May 8, 2008
L&I !! L&I !!!
Thingray - May 8, 2008
You rang?
PositivePaul - May 8, 2008
Crap, don't tell me you work with my brother...
Thingray - May 8, 2008
Where does he work?
I probably do…
PositivePaul - May 8, 2008
L&I in Everett mostly.
Thingray - May 8, 2008
You mean you were diagnosed with something called a brain cloud and didn't ask for a second opinion?
Wilder. - May 8, 2008
I've been waiting for a pair of hot young blonde twins
and a similar looking hot young brunette to guide me on the right path.
Jed MC - May 8, 2008
It could be Lupus.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
It's never lupus
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
I disagree
JI - May 8, 2008
Fine
It’s almost never lupus
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Die Wombat Die.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
wrong
needs more Chase
JI - May 8, 2008
Chase is an annoying little twit.
Foreman is superior.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
I favor Wilson
Robert - May 8, 2008
too much psychoanalyzing
JI - May 8, 2008
Comes with too much cutthroat bitch.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
He has a hot girlfriend, don't be a hater.
JI - May 8, 2008
Cutthroat bitch /= hot.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
wrong
so terribly wrong
JI - May 8, 2008
13 and Cameron way hotter.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Dude, Jennifer Morrison is fucking HOT.
Phil Hatzenbuehler - May 8, 2008
Hell yes.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Must we do this again?
JI - May 8, 2008
Until you get it right.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
wrong
Foreman is annoying
Chase is hilarious.
JI - May 8, 2008
Signs we hate ourselves and the Mariners at this point
310 comments and zero recs in this thread
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Rec'd
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
I never know how generous I'm supposed to be with the Rec button
Robert - May 8, 2008
Courtesy rec'd.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
Can we please burn the tree now?
OlSalty - May 8, 2008
Only if it's Anne Frank's favorite tree.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
Anne Frank had a favorite tree?
JI - May 8, 2008
The three where JeffS was arrested last night.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
The three?
WE HAVE TO BURN THREE TREES NOW?
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
Burning one isn't enough
it’s more effective when you burn three.
pdb - May 8, 2008
This is the part where Coach would greatly brighten our days
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
I dunno, he's pretty violent and pessimistic lately.
I think it’s hormonal.
Thingray - May 8, 2008
Is Coach on the rag?
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
Damn typos.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
So you guys realize that the dash is clickable right
Jeff Sullivan - May 8, 2008
Well look at that.
There’s a WE chart.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
No.
(stupid, stupid, stupid! Thingray!)
Thingray - May 8, 2008
Really?
I thought it was one of these.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
Didn't click on the link
but you can go to hell anyways.
BrianL - May 8, 2008
:D
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
PS: Sending a Mariners fan to hell is redundant.
eponymous_coward - May 8, 2008
It’s better than being Eli Roll’d.
Phil Hatzenbuehler - May 8, 2008
That picture almost made me cry
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
great picture
InSpokane - May 8, 2008
Yes
I assumed you fucked up royally and I wanted to see how it would take until someone pointed it out.
JI - May 8, 2008
It was entirely on purpose
Jeff Sullivan - May 8, 2008
I believe you, Jeff
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
I thank you for not shaming me for my typo.
JI - May 8, 2008
I'm not kidding, I don't even notice them anymore until you point em out
just like those damn dogs
seattlebruin - May 8, 2008
I noticed
Graham MacAree - May 8, 2008
Ya.
CapSea - May 8, 2008
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