Seattle: 35-53
Athletics: 47-41
Game 1: Jarrod Washburn* vs Dana Eveland*
Game 2: Carlos Silva vs Justin Duchscherer
Game 3: Miguel Batista vs Joe Blanton
Game 4: R.A. Dickey vs Greg Smith*
This sucks. For Strasburg and pure enjoyment reasons, I was really hoping to see Rich Harden face us. Oh well, it's been awhile since we've faced the A's so lets do a recap on the four pitchers that we are actually facing, now with more sample size!
Dana Eveland looks like a decent pitcher on the surface, but closer examination reveals some potentially big problems. For one, he's wild. Miguel Batista wild. 41% of his pitches thrown end up as balls (Miguel's at 41.7%). That's a recipe for big time walk rates in the future. Furthermore his swinging strike rate is under 6%, a poor sign for future K rates. He's survived so well this far because of a microscopic homerun rate, partly due to a low flyball rate, but it's not all roses there and many of those missing flyballs are biting him in the form of line drives.
.224 is what Duchscherer's BABIP currently stands at which gives you a primary indication why his ERA is around 3. Nevertheless, he manages to run a fairly average pitch profile. He's also benefited from a homerun rate about half what it should be so going forward, he seems like a roughly average AL SP to me.
Blanton has regressed quite a bit this year, missing bats now just 5.5% of the time, seeing his percentage of balls thrown jump two points and his groundballs falter a bit. It adds up to a 4.58 tRA over the 4.16 from last year.
Greg Smith is sort of Dana Eveland-lite. He's quite wild as well at 39.7%, but at least it's under 40% and he can actually miss bats 7.4% of the time. Smith represents the best stuff the Ms will have to face this series. The AL average SP misses bats 7.6% of the time. Oakland has built a pitching staff succeeding a lot thanks to a league best BABIP (good fielders) and a league lowest 8% HR/FB rate. That they have a staff striking out over 7 batters per game when these are four of their starters speaks to how insane Rich Harden is (nearly 30% K rate).

Likely Starters:
C Kurt Suzuki
1 Daric Barton*
2 Mark Ellis
3 Jack Hannahan*
S Donnie Murphy
L Jack Cust*
C Carlos Gonzalez*/Rajai Davis
R Ryan Sweeney*
D Wes Bankston
To be honest, I have no clue what they're going to do with the outfield and DH. I tried to piece together something based on their recent lineups and moves, but yeesh. The A's have had a reputation for poor offense this year, but in reality it was mostly just one bad month, May.
The A's scored 4.66 runs per game up May 1st and have scored 4.52 runs per game since June 1st, neither bad numbers. It's just that awful stretch in May, also their only losing month so far, when they scored under 4 runs a game. Bottom line, though strikeout prone, this is not a total pushover offense.
Jeff Clement nearly single-handedly wins a game and is rewarded with a day off that would have held if it hadn't gone 15 innings.
Erik Bedard, with a meaningless season stretching in front of him and the All Star Break nears, feels that trying to pitch through shoulder soreness would be stupid. In response, several people question his toughness.
There were several stupid things about this weekend. There were some awesome parts as well. The aforementioned Clement homeruns. Brandon Morrow being his 2008 self. Another couple days marked off the Sean Green Arm Explosion Office Pool (tough luck BrianL), and, oh yeah:

Bahahahahahahahahahaha. Awesome.
Jamie Burke: 5.6% missed bat rate. Carlos Silva, 4.5%.
Anchor Steam
Anchor Brewing Company. San Francisco, CA
Amber color with large frothy head and vanilla tones. Finished very smoothly. Not much of an aroma but a solid taste and finish. Not the greatest beer ever, but one of my favorites on summer days.
0 recs | 187 comments
I thought Felix was going on Thursday
Robert - July 7, 2008
There's a chance, but again, I go by the official probables list.
Dickey could also start Wednesday in place of Tits were Felix to get the nod for Thursday.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
So.... how the hell is Oak's outfield so amazing?
According to THT, an OF that gives Jack Cust significant playing time is either #1 or #2 in OF defense this year.
Wha?
Yeah, OK, Carlos Gonzalez and, to a somewhat lesser extent Ryan Sweeney, have been lights out in CF. So – two questions:
1) How much regression to the mean should we expect from OAK’s OF (or at least OAK’s CFs)? We don’t have a lot to go on, esp. for Gonzalez, but I think the presumption should be that neither guy is Willie Mays.
2) To what degree can a team ‘play around’ a defensive black hole? Seems like the answer is: a metric fuck ton. The two best defensive OF’s routinely start Manny Ramirez and Jack Cust.
marc w - July 7, 2008
I thought Schumaker/Ankiel/Ludwick would be amongst the top OFs.
JI - July 7, 2008
Sorry, I meant best in the AL
StL’s is close to BOS/OAK, but the best in MLB seems to be a race between the Cubs/Pads/Giants.
marc w - July 7, 2008
Cubs/Pads seems baffling.
JI - July 7, 2008
Jim Edmonds, man, Jim Edmonds
The metrics respect his former self.
Cutthemullet - July 7, 2008
Yes, but Edmonds has been immobile for quite some time and Soriano blows.
JI - July 7, 2008
yeah I was being sarcastic, since Edmonds has played for the Cubs and Pads this year
and hence the “former self”—his current self should not be starting in centerfield for any team, which the at least the Padres apparently realized.
Cutthemullet - July 7, 2008
I know
I’m suspicious of individual metrics
JI - July 7, 2008
Worth investigating, though I'm not sure if the RZR figures for infield and outfield have a park adjustment built in
which, if not, would be important for Boston and Oakland (and show just how bad our OF really is).
Matthew - July 7, 2008
Shouldn't a Ibanez/Reed/Ichiro OF be about average?
Ichiro’s awesomeness in RF balances out Ibanez in LF and Reed is about average?
Jed MC - July 7, 2008
Yes, it'd be important for BOS most of all
but it should pull their RZR down. If BOS is doing this well without a park adjustment….wow.
Still, I can’t see why even a historically awful LF would impact our team DER/outfield RZR so much, when Cust (by any measure even worse than Ibanez) doesn’t seem to drag down Oakland’s.
marc w - July 7, 2008
It's the metrically average CF Ichiro and the horrible RF for the first two months
Mariner John - July 7, 2008
So your argument is that 2 months of Brad Wilkerson
is worth what, 15 plays below average? 20?
Put a ballpark number around how bad you think Wilkerson or wilk/wlad were.
marc w - July 7, 2008
Since we're, what, 39 runs below average...
Ibanez is probably 15 of that and Wilk/Wlad are 8? I don’t know for sure but that’s why our figures are still in the shitter.
Mariner John - July 7, 2008
Again, if this is so easy, why are the A's good?
Is Emil Brown really a hall-of-fame defender in right?
marc w - July 7, 2008
I don't know.
I was just giving a reason why we’re still god awful for the season. I didn’t claim to be an expert on UZR. I don’t have the info in front of me.
Were I to make a guess, it would be either a flaw in the system or that Emil Brown is average rather than below average.It also helps that Cust has been at DH more often lately and that Carlos Gonzalez appears to be awesome.
Mariner John - July 8, 2008
We need to lose
Oakland needs to take the WC and leave Boston at home.
JI - July 7, 2008
In San Antonio on Saturday, I saw three A's tees/jerseys.
Is this normal? Why aren’t they cheering the Astros, or the Rangers if they need an AL team?
Kirsten Schlewitz - July 7, 2008
Because rooting for the A's is like being in a secret club.
It makes you cool.
salb918 - July 7, 2008
< gives secret handshake >
ArakSOT - July 7, 2008
< wears A's jersey in Cambridge >
salb918 - July 7, 2008
Secret clubs have members
Jeff Sullivan - July 7, 2008
You're out.
salb918 - July 7, 2008
It must be said:
One could throw this at newfangled Rays fans too.
marc w - July 7, 2008
They already have bandwagoners
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
Who never, ever go to games
Sounds a bit like the A’s – great blogs, TONS of on-line interest….. no attendance.
The Rays get attendance if Boston/NYY/Cubs are in town.
marc w - July 7, 2008
All their bandwagoners live outside of Florida
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
The Rays drew 30,000 people on Saturday to watch them face the mighty Royals.
It’s getting better.
Teej - July 7, 2008
After a decade of being beyond terrible they deserve to be a little cautious
but, yeah.
Jeff Sullivan - July 7, 2008
Oh, bandwagoners can be cautious all right
I’m talking about St. Pete residents. Look, I had every reason to be cautious about being an M’s fan, growing up with 100-loss seasons, George Argyros and constant threats of moving the team. If Seattle can drag 15,000 casual fans to the park every night, so can anyone. We were shit on for longer!
The A’s thing was always weirder given the size/impact of AN, but we may be moving in that direction with the Rays: plenty of support in places nowhere near Tampa (the biggest Rays fan I’ve ever met/only Rays fan I’ve ever met lives in Glasgow), middling gates, 50/50 home fans/road fans splits. This isn’t a bad thing, and it really WOULD be more like a secret club, but it’s cases like these where you see how important casual fans are… ‘smart’ fans often treat them as the enemy, when they’re really quite valuable. Use your favorite livestock analogy here.
marc w - July 7, 2008
You never see Mariners hats in my neck of the woods
it’s always Boston and Washnigton
JI - July 7, 2008
That's racist?
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
No?
JI - July 7, 2008
Washnigton? That seems a bit racist to me
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
I think you mean zomg political
Robert - July 7, 2008
Washington has a baseball team you silly monkey.
JI - July 7, 2008
But does Washnigton?
Kirsten Schlewitz - July 7, 2008
Holy shit I completely missed that.
Aaron Campeau - July 7, 2008
Nig Cuppy was always my favorite baseball player.
JI - July 7, 2008
Isn't this a dead meme by now?
JI - July 7, 2008
I think this one's a special case.
Aaron Campeau - July 7, 2008
It has moved from dead to zombie meme.
Only killable with a shotgun.
Jed MC - July 7, 2008
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
I didn't start it.
Kirsten Schlewitz - July 7, 2008
There's lots of military in the Bay area,
could be people who used to be stationed there. That’s how a friend of mine became an A’s fan (his Dad was stationed in Oakland).
Thingray - July 7, 2008
Weirdest place I've met an A's fan: internet cafe in Cairo International Airport.
salb918 - July 7, 2008
You'd think that would apply more to the Pads than the A's, though
or the Orioles and Nats now
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
Nitpick!
I think you mean semicolon.
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
No semicolon
Maybe a comma after “be,” but no semicolon.
Teej - July 7, 2008
No? Looks like each parts separated by the comma could be sentences on their own.
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
I think you're reading over the word "so."
Teej - July 7, 2008
That I am!
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
The day is saved!
Teej - July 7, 2008
If I were a townsfolk I would thank you for saving our humble village
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
Dammit Rays.
Score runs.
BrianL - July 7, 2008
Pena and Crawford just got owned by Mahay
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
That last pitch looked to be outside.
BrianL - July 7, 2008
BAHAHAHAHA
Per FJM, this is horrible
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
OK, I've moved on from sadly funny to just really sad
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
I googled "stat ray"
And there’s a picture of a baby being X-Rayed. I’m not sure what that means.
Frosty Raptor - July 7, 2008
Sluggernaught!
Teej - July 7, 2008
*Sluggernaut
Teej - July 7, 2008
I know I make this too much a habit, but:
”.224 is what Duchscherer’s BABIP currently stands at which gives you a primary indication why his ERA is around 3. Nevertheless, he manages to run a fairly average pitch profile. He’s also benefited from a homerun rate about half what it should be so going forward, he seems like a roughly average AL SP to me.”
Duscherer’s current ERA = 1.96. Leading the AL I might add. What he’s done to deserve it is, of course, a whole nother story.
TheOptimist - July 7, 2008
Jose Lopez is going to rape that ERA all the way back up to 3
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
More power to him.
I want all the distance from the A’s we can get. :)
TheOptimist - July 7, 2008
REEEGRREESSSSIOONNNNN TO THE MEEEEAAAANNNN
BrianL - July 7, 2008
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSs
BrianL - July 7, 2008
pffft, it's only 1 RBI.
That’s not an explosion.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
RAYSRAYSRAYSRAYSRAYSRAYSRAYS
BrianL - July 7, 2008
BrianL - July 7, 2008
dammit wrong blog
BrianL - July 7, 2008
You take your jubilation elsewhere
Jeff Sullivan - July 7, 2008
My jubilation is about to become despair.
BrianL - July 7, 2008
FUCK DAN WHEELER
BrianL - July 7, 2008
What have we learned?
Jeff Sullivan - July 7, 2008
Put all your eggs in one basket. And make that basket pitching?
Matthew - July 7, 2008
Worked in the 60s
JI - July 7, 2008
Like uprotected casual sex,
many things that were fine in the 60’s don’t work today.
Jed MC - July 7, 2008
Optimism is frowned upon round these parts
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
I can't have nice things.
BrianL - July 7, 2008
There is no floor.
Jed MC - July 7, 2008
Defense is for girls
Robert - July 7, 2008
Girls have good taste.
JI - July 7, 2008
Cardinal outfielders could your judgement on these things.
Robert - July 7, 2008
This man is correct.
Kirsten Schlewitz - July 7, 2008
Explain Vince Neil.
Aaron Campeau - July 7, 2008
So Bedard is a good defender?
Mariner John - July 7, 2008
I didnt say girl parts
Robert - July 7, 2008
I don't get that insult at all.
JI - July 7, 2008
Neither do I
This is why I need a delete button.
Robert - July 7, 2008
I thought people liked girl parts.
JI - July 7, 2008
Me too.
Kirsten Schlewitz - July 7, 2008
Maybe they just don't liek them on guys.
JI - July 7, 2008
Me neither.
Kirsten Schlewitz - July 7, 2008
That's prejudice!
JI - July 7, 2008
you fucker
I called that and look what you did
JI - July 7, 2008
I plan on committing ritualistic seppuku tonight.
BrianL - July 7, 2008
Is there a correlation between FB% and HR/FB? I would think pitchers with lower FB% would have lower HR/FB
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
The general idea is actually the opposite,
that GB pitchers have higher HR/FB% because when they do give up FBs, they’re usually meatballs.
However, I’ve looked into it on a couple occaisions and have found:
-Little year to year correlation in HR/FB% suggesting it’s highly regressible.
-Zero statistically significant evidence that HR/FB% and GB% are correlated.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
Normalize Duchscherer's ERA and it's low-to-mid 3s
I’d say that’s just a touch better than league-average.
PaulThomas - July 7, 2008
Saying something like this without providing context on what you mean by "normalize"
is worse than worthless, it’s potentially misleading.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
Matthew, you know I like you, but you're being a dick.
Why not ask, “My dear Paul, could you clarify what you mean by ‘normaize’?”
salb918 - July 7, 2008
He means that we need to harvest the northern crop of corn products
that’s what “normaize” meant to me at least =)
I understood Paul’s post as just meaning that if you normalize his HR/FB and BABIP, all of a sudden his ERA will normalize to ~league average or a little better as well.
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
That was my first impression as well, but it's wrong.
If you adjust his BABIP and HR/FB rate to league average, you get an ERA over 4.
Hence, I have no idea what he meant by “normalize ERA”. Sorry if my tone was too harsh, but my patience on things like this has been greatly whittled down by constantly trying to deal with people who misrepresent stats. Which I’m not saying Paul is intentionally doing here, but since he doesn’t state where he gets these numbers from and my own numbers state conclusions contrary to his assertion, I’m left with nothing else to say.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
Nothing systematic...
just eyeballing the numbers. Doubling his home run rate is about an extra 8 runs. Raising his BABIP to his career average is about an extra 12 hits. Your average hit is half a run or so. Another 17 hits is 17 less outs, which probably adds a couple of runs. So his ERA should probably be about 60% higher than it is.
PaulThomas - July 7, 2008
This is exactly what I meant.
Doubling his HR rate adds 7 runs and adjusting the BABIP to league level adds another 14.4 runs using Tango’s .8 runs per missed play.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
Incidentally, 0.8 runs per missed play may not really be very accurate at all...
Graham MacAree - July 8, 2008
Any hints?
What should it be?
marc w - July 8, 2008
It's a sample size thing.
0.8 works for average, but it can obviously be very off when dealing with 20 some odd plays such as here.
What you would want to do is actually go through and calculate the actual runs saved from the lower BABIP. However, since it is a small sample, you would then have to regress it 99% toward the league mean, which is 0.8.
In other words, Duch’s runs saved figure from the low BABIP is
0.8 * missing hits +/- a pretty wide margin
because we’re dealing with small samples. Hopefully, people here intrinsically understand this.
Matthew - July 8, 2008
I'd guess PaulThomas is looking at FIP.
Phil Hatzenbuehler - July 7, 2008
His tRA is 3.81, and that's with an unsustainable home run rate
Jeff Sullivan - July 7, 2008
Yes, but tRA is made up.
JI - July 7, 2008
IT'S ONLY ONE STAT
BrianL - July 7, 2008
ONE MADE UP STAT
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
Dudes
I mean this in a relatively good natured way, but screw you. I know what tRA is, I know what regression to the mean is, I know batting average sucks, and—ok, let’s just cut to the chase here—I’m not a fucking moron, and your immediate assumption that I am is both asinine and ridiculous.
PaulThomas - July 7, 2008
You are missing an inside joke.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
From DRaysBay nonetheless
JI - July 7, 2008
What's his tRA* (isn't that the regressed one?)?
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
4.6 ish
Matthew - July 7, 2008
Greg Smith was very tough to hit last series we played the A's.
He pitched a hell of a game.
44FAN - July 7, 2008
By the way, Ichiro is still awesome
On going to the All-Star game in New York:
and
Per the Seattle Times.
BrianL - July 7, 2008
Ichiro in the home run derby would make this season worthwhile
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
It would make my entire life worthwhile.
Aaron Campeau - July 7, 2008
Heh, Felix in the home run derby would make my life worthwhile
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
re: Home Run Derby
Oh my God, that be so fucking awesome.
Powerswing on display for the entire nation to see? Yes, please.
Phil Hatzenbuehler - July 7, 2008
For the last eight years, I've been utterly convinced he would win
Please let this happen, PLEASE PLEASE!
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
I worry that he would ruin his second half swing a la Bobby Abreu.
But yes, awesome. And Jamie Burke should be the BP tosser.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
I just don't see Ichiro having that problem.
Aaron Campeau - July 7, 2008
Ruin his second half swing or cause him to become the greatest home run hitter of all time?
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
I think given that he puts those kinds of displays on in BP all the time, it would be less worrisome for a guy like him
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
My worry over Ichiro is not rational.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
Less rational than your worry over Felix?
BrianL - July 7, 2008
More rational than that.
Nothing in my life is less rational than my worry/love for Felix.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
Robert has hacked Matthew's account!
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
Robert is way more gay about it than me.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
Maybe you're just trying to disguise it while you plot what to do with your newfound mod powers
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
You will know its me when the Lolcats arrive
Robert - July 7, 2008
Robert is gay for Timmay Ruskell.
BrianL - July 7, 2008
Tui the elder and Hass round out the fab four.
Robert - July 7, 2008
I <3 Marques
BrianL - July 7, 2008
Marques gave me the closest thing I have to a championship
Robert - July 7, 2008
I yearn for a championship as well
I have come to terms with the fact that it will most likely be a Final Four victory
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
My only hope is the super bowl
Robert - July 7, 2008
I'm cautiously optimistic about this season.
If Courtney Taylor steps up like I think he will, I really believe that this is a better team than the one we had in ‘05.
BrianL - July 7, 2008
I already think it is.
Aaron Campeau - July 7, 2008
No Hutch = worse team
We’ll never see the like of that again – peak years from the left guard and left tackle.
I just want to see how the RB rotation is going to work. It could be awesome, or it could be a big distraction.
marc w - July 8, 2008
Defense.
Aaron Campeau - July 10, 2008
I'm good at the worst things
Robert - July 7, 2008
I worry that he'll hurt himself and like Jim Edmonds
JI - July 7, 2008
Yes. Liking Jim Edmonds is wrong.
Phil Hatzenbuehler - July 7, 2008
I'm still upset that 2003 wasn't the monster season it should have been.
JI - July 7, 2008
Ichiro's going to have a tough time carrying all his trophies this year:
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
He doesn't have the Hurting His Team award in this picture
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
That's an end of season award
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
Didn't he win it in 2004 as well?
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
He could never take that award from Barry Bonds.
JI - July 7, 2008
*whom the A's should sign for the stretch run.
JI - July 7, 2008
Rays*
Wilder. - July 7, 2008
*A's
fuck the Red Sox, keep harden in Oakland
JI - July 7, 2008
RA's
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
I can only think of the Cardinals lineup with him
The one time you didn’t listen to LaRussa you bastards
JI - July 7, 2008
Fuck the Angels.*
Keep Harden in Oakland.
Rays sign Bonds, drop Cliff Floyd.
Wilder. - July 7, 2008
I'd rather see the Red Sox miss
JI - July 7, 2008
Ichiro was so happy when no team signed Bonds
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
He hurt us by being happy with that.
JI - July 7, 2008
He did this on purpose so he could win the award
Sly bastard
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
It wont
He does it everyday.
Robert - July 7, 2008
Just tell Ichiro:
“If I ever saw myself saying I’m excited going to watch the Home Run Derby, I’d punch myself in the face, because I’m lying…unless you’re in it, Ichiro.”
Phil Hatzenbuehler - July 7, 2008
Jose Lopez is on pace for 199.7 hits
I’ll put down a $1 bet right now to anyone that he gets to 190, and I’ll take 200 as well for 1.5:1 odds
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
I'll take on the 200 hit mark if you tie it to a bet (from me) that he doesn't reach 20 walks (iBB excl) this season.
Even odds.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
He'll make both
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
*with 20 home runs
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 7, 2008
So if he goes over 200 and gets 20 BB, I win
under 200 and less than 20 BB you win, 1-1 we push?
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
Yes.
Matthew - July 7, 2008
Done.
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
And if he gets exactly 200 hits?
Faux - July 8, 2008
I'll probably pay Matthew his $1 since I
seattlebruin - July 8, 2008
'd be thrilled if Loafie actually gets to 200
seattlebruin - July 8, 2008
I will take this bet
Robert - July 7, 2008
Excellent
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
I will buy the finest bubbletape man has ever seen with this money.
Robert - July 7, 2008
This comment made me laugh far more than it should have.
BrianL - July 7, 2008
Perhaps I will even buy you a beer as well should I lose this wager
in the vain hope that drunk Robert will give me many many recs
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
I get even more greedy for recs when I'm drunk
Robert - July 7, 2008
I'll give you a rec for every 1.5 recs you give me
seattlebruin - July 7, 2008
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