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Lookout Landing

Washburn's Command

I know it already seems like Pick on Geoff Baker Day between LL and USSM, but it's my turn to chip in.

We went over this a couple of weeks back when U.S.S. Mariner took a swipe at Jarrod Washburn -- called him an idiot, I believe -- for saying he had better command. Mentioned his strike ratios and walk ratios. But that basic premise shows a lack of understanding of the meaning of command in the major leagues, which isn't exclusively about the ability to throw strikes and not walk guys. Well, part of it is, that's true. But right here is an example of a guy who throws tons of strikes -- but who also has no command.
 
Sometimes, the ball is an inch or two too close to a hitter's sweet spot. They live on the edge. With Washburn, lately, he's gotten on the better side of that edge because of a mechanical adjustment (or so he says). He'll still give up some extra base hits, as he did the other night. But so far, he isn't getting crushed like he was in May. So, if that makes him an idiot, OK.

These quotes come from here.

Here is how this reads to me, and if Geoff wants to correct my assumptions, I'm all ears.

  1. Geoff Baker is talking about command in the sense of the pitcher staying away from the middle of the zone.
  2. Washburn has been better of late because he has improved said command.

I buy the first point. There's a rather intuitive way to break down a pitcher's skills.

  • Stuff - What he throws, how well he throws it, how well he hides it, etc. Good stuff leads to missed bats leads to strikeouts.
  • Control - Ability to throw pitches for strikes. Good control leads to fewer balls leads to fewer walks.
  • Command - (a.k.a. "Control within the zone") Ability to avoid throwing in the middle of plate. Good command leads to a better batted ball profile leads to fewer home runs.

Command and control are somewhat related, but can be thought of as distinct skills. Pitchers can have good control with bad command by just aiming for the heart of the zone and pitchers can have good command but bad control.

The problem comes from the second point.

Sometimes, the ball is an inch or two too close to a hitter's sweet spot. They live on the edge. With Washburn, lately, he's gotten on the better side of that edge.

I'm going to make another assumption here and go back to Washburn's June 9th start as the beginning of this good period since that's when he had the first traditionally good result of this recent run.

Washburn strike%, pre-6/9: 62%
Washburn strike%, post-6/9: 61%
(hattip: Jeff for these)

Okay, you might argue, but that just tells us his control isn't any better, it doesn't say anything about his command. Well, Washburn's post-6/9 LD% is higher than it was in either of his first two seasons as a Mariner (again, thanks Jeff). Furthermore,

These are Washburn's heat maps with all pitches (excluding his relief appearance) from the start of the year through June 2nd on the left and all pitches from June 9th onward on the right. Does the picture on the right look like a mapping of a pitcher staying away from hitter's sweet spots? It doesn't to me. It looks like the exact opposite. It looks like a pitcher chucking the ball in the center of the zone. One possible reason for that might be because said pitcher was facing, on average, pretty mediocre hitters.

I'm not going to speculate on what Geoff Baker's motivation was in particular, but I will use this to point out again what is a typical trademark of results-based analysis: the results are known going in. You know that Jarrod Washburn has pitched better^ over his last x-odd starts so you go hunting for a reason. Seeing what you might believe to be an effect and then going back and trying to connect it to a cause is bad science and it's going to be incorrect a vast majority of the time.

^by your definition, which may not be shared by others.

3 recs  |  127 comments

Comments

How does a pitcher go about having good command but bad control?
It isn't 'bad' control

but Tom Glavine’s a guy who for long stretches has had impeccable command and so-so control. Maybe Rick Sutcliffe as well…

Here's the way I think of it.

Command is the ability to hit a certain spot. Let’s say we have two pitchers who want to aim for a point X and they throw 100 pitches at that point. Pitcher A misses by an average of 6 inches. Pitcher B misses by an average of 4 inches. Pitcher B has better command.

But lets say in a game Pitcher A constantly aims for the center of the plate, thigh high. Since he’s aiming for the middle of the plate, he has 8.5 inches on each side to miss so he’s going to throw a lot of strikes (good control) but will miss his spot a lot and generally be “wild within the zone” (bad command).

Pitcher B, on the other hand, is a smarter pitcher and constantly aims for the edges of the strike zone. Half the time he’s going to miss wide and it will be a ball so he’s going to throw many more balls than Pitcher A (bad control). However, he’s also rarely ever going to throw a pitch near the center of the plate since he’d have to miss by ~8 inches from his spot (good command).

So a guy with better command could have a lower strike% because the better command allows him to work the corners?

Because otherwise it looks pitcher B has better command but is, to revive a much-missed phrase, pitching stupid.

In a nutshell way, yes

though I wouldn’t called Pitcher B the stupid one necessarily.

That was along the lines I was thinking

Thanks for clarifying

Jesus Christ almighty, it looks like he's been pitching much worse since 6/9.

I hope to God we trade him before we start facing some teams that can actually hit.

Control and command are the same thing

How about we just call it “aim”? When a pitcher aims for a certain spot, how likely is he to hit that spot? Or you can look at probabilistically—when a pitcher aims for a spot, what size is the zone that he hits 90% of the time?

Pitchers with equal “aim” will throw more or fewer strikes depending on their stuff. 85 mph fastball? Aim off the plate 40% of the time. 95 mph fastball? Aim off the plate only 20% of the time. Both guys are maximizing their skills to produce the best results they can. The first guy is trading an increasing in walks for a decrease in homeruns. The second guy will give up fewer homeruns and thus shouldn’t risk the walks.

It’s also possible to have various amounts of aim with different pitches.

"Control and command are the same thing"

No they’re not

Care to expand?

Or can I say this—the ability to throw a pitch for strikes instead of balls and the ability to throw a pitch where you want it in the strike zone are results of the same skill.

Stuff is definitely different—velocity, break, mechanical deception. But being able to aim the ball, no matter where you’re aiming, is still just aiming.

They're separated out because they're two different grades of the same underlying skill

And then they have different results – control is avoiding walks, command is avoiding hard contact.

But what's the point of separating them out if we're judging skills?

If anything, I’d prefer to have these these two skills in my model of pitching talent: aim and being smart enough to know where to aim.

We'd all prefer that.

The fact of the matter is, though, that there are many pitchers who can throw strikes with no idea of where they’re going (aside from the strike zone) and pitchers who can avoid the middle of the zone consistently while throwing a lot of pitches outside the zone. Pitchers that can do both are much more hard to come by.

So, while they’re related, they’re not the same thing, and it’s worthwhile to differentiate between the two.

Accuracy vs Precision

This is the same situation that you learn about in High School Chemistry.

Control is exactly like Accuracy. Your pitches might be somewhat close to the target, but vary wildly around the target.

Command is closer to Precision. Your pitches may or may not be on target, but they are consistently close together in a repeatable fashion.

Images from Wikipedia on Accuracy

I guess I don’t understand why the “target” in the command/control model is the strike zone. I want to know whether a pitcher can hit his spot, whatever that spot might be. Where the pitcher aims is going to depend a lot on his stuff.

If one pitcher consistently aims for the outside corner and throws 60% strikes while a second pitcher aims four inches on the plate and throws 65% strikes, why would you give the second pitcher credit for having a better skill in anything resembling “aiming”. He probably is a worse aimer, but has better stuff.

The only reason I can see the command/control model having any practical use that we know, through data, what percentage of pitches are throw for strikes. But command is in the realm of scouting (or was, until PITCHf/x). Of course, to rate a pitcher’s skill at “aiming” you have to know where he was trying to throw each pitch—but that same difficulty exists for command.

In my model, there are only two basic pitching skills—stuff and aim (which is closer to command than control, although the word “control” fits better.) What is traditionally called control is a combination of stuff and aim

GEOFF BAKER ORDERED THE DESTRUCTION OF ALDERAAN

This is blatantly untrue and you know it
Destroyed.... BY THE EMPIRE!
Geoff Baker is friends with the Ewoks.
D'awwwwww.
I apparently don't understand what command is

But the guy who wanted to acquire Dontrelle Willis, Matt Morris, Eric Gagne, Al Reyes, and Carlos Silva – that guy knows pitching. Since I don’t understand a basic element of how pitchers get people out, that explains why I was so massively wrong in suggesting that Tim Hudson, Scott Baker, Jose Contreras, Tim Redding, J.P. Howell, and Edwin Jackson would have been good pitchers to acquire.

Oh, wait, I wasn’t wrong about that.

For a guy who loves results, his track record of evaluating pitching is disastrous, and ours is pretty fricking good.

I'm still feeling smug about Dontrelle Willis
What would we have to be wrong about to equal his take on Jones for Willis?

I mean, really, what’s a comparable opinion to that? That Arizona would be better if they moved Brandon Webb to the bullpen? That Kenji’s native tongue is Spanish?

I mean, really, if I’m ever that wrong about something, I fully expect to have to retire in shame.

Griffey for DH, Teixeira for 1B in 2009?

:(

I still want Tex dammit
For how much/how long?
90ish/5

Fat bloody chance of that though

Yup

and the 5 still makes me nervous.
Just not sure how that guy will age…

I assume he'll get a year older every 365 days

That’s just a guess though ;)

Man, that joke is late.
Only took him three minutes.

In some circles that’s “business time”.

Similar joke appeared re: Tex a month+ ago.
I retract my previous statement.
in 2012

he’ll get older even slower than that.

That the Rays are a fluke
So many people believe this it's infuriating
Fine by me.

I’ve already told you about my friend the Giants fan who is going to owe me a crapload of money when the Rays finish above .500.

Yeah, but after you make the bet you want to be able to explain why he's wrong

Some people just don’t listen

The money makes me overlook these things.
I tiptoe around the more nerdy POV of baseball when talking to friends without diving into it
I start with OPS and work my up.
I stop at OPS

I had the hardest time explaining to one of my friends that the overall W-L from an entire season is a better way to judge a team than just their playoff performance

No, you don't want to explain.

You admit that it’s a fluke so you can take more money from his dumb ass.

I prefer to be around smart people

and if that fails, I prefer to educate the dumb people

I still can't believe he lobbied to trade Clement and Wlad for some of those pitchers.

Thank God the Tigers took the Dontrelle bullet for us.

Yeah, but that bullet was wrapped

in what looked like/still looks like a sure-fire hall of fame hitter. Makes it easier to take.

Except that hitter is no longer a terrible 3B

and is now a mediocre 1B.

Glove + position, Cabrera’s defense costs his value probably 15+ runs.

I don't get why he's not DHing
They want him to move around some so he doesn't reach 400 pounds.
Sheffield?
Would be a better 1B than Miggy I suspect
THT's stats show Miggy as being about average

Npt bad RZR, poor (though not god-awful) OOZ play rate.

I admit I'm only basing this off having watched him play a few times
Sheff used to be a third baseman, didn't he?
15 years ago maybe...

Edgar used to be a 3B too…

He liked to make errors on purpose.
He was a shortstop
as well
as were most right handed throwing infielders.
As were basically any good baseball players

at some point.

But yes, Sheff came up as a SS with Milwaukee, and later moved to 3b.

He was a SS at some point I think

If you go far enough back in baseball mogul you can draft him as an SS

I really doubt this.
That's why I said 'hitter'

as a player, his value has taken quite a hit in the past 3 years or so.

I think 15 runs is probably about right, considering he still had some time at 3b this year, but the team took some steps to staunch the blood loss by moving him to 1b.

Aw it's OK you'll learn one day
My opinion of Baker is quite the rollercoaster ride.

I love his beat writing, and he’s occasionally hilarious, but he takes criticism from his readers far too personally, and he’s been taking a lot of ad hominem swipes at USSM as of late. I’m in a “this guy kind of pisses me off” phase right now.

I loved his Winter Meeting coverage so much.
More of that.

Less being a dick.

(I mean Baker, just in case there was any confusion.)
I'm still hoping he resigns

and goes to another city to cover their sports…. he’d be a perfect fit in Oklahoma City….

Geoff Baker is a far better beat writer than the last hack we had to deal with.
who cares about Beat writers

he’s just another mouth piece that doesn’t understand baseball or statistical evaluation

I care a lot about beat writers.

And he understands a lot about baseball.

I greatly enjoy the beat writing Baker does.

He’s fantastic at that, just look at his coverage of the winter meetings. That was Grade-A coverage that you wouldn’t have gotten from any other beat writer that covers this club. That kind of stuff is valuable to fans.

his coverage of the winter meetings

was nothing special…. he wrote what he heard…. big deal, pocket lint did that too… Baker is just a tad better then pocket lint at writing, but he’s also worse in that he thinks he knows more about evaluation of player performance then he does…..

So I am sticking with my sentiments that I hope he packs up and leaves so someone that truly understands evaluation of players and statistics can be brought in, to add something to the discussion.

Baker is ten times the writer Finnigan ever was.
not really...

both are just fluff writers….. nothing either one of them writes is ground breaking or all that intuitive. There are much better writers out there that aren’t employed by newspapers.

Dislike Baker for what he does poorly, pitching evaluation.

There is absolutely no reason to bash his ability to cover the team. Sure, he annoys me at times, but I give him credit for being extremely good at what he does.

And for the love of God, proper punctuation and capitalization.

I can bash him all I like.

His skills are nothing impressive. I fully dislike his writing style and his belief that he understands more about statistical evaluation then he fully does. And excuse my lack of punctuation, I’m trying to do 3 things at once. I didn’t realize that it bothered you so much to have someone try and write a quick reply, I’ll strive to make my sentences fully structured and punctualized from now on.

It appears as though you just don't care for beat writers in general.

That’s fine. But a lot of other people do, and Baker is much better at it than most.

Actually, there are plenty of beat writers I like

Baker just isn’t one of them, in my opinion he’s the Richie Sexson of beat writing. Every once in a while he’ll hit one out of the park but the majority of the time he’ll swing and miss, which is why he gets raked over the coals here and on USSM so frequently.

He gets raked over the coals here because we hold him to an extremely high standard.

Why that high standard? Because he’s shown us in the past that he’s an excellent writer. If he wasn’t, we wouldn’t care.

Pocket Lint wasn't an excellent writer.

He was raked over the coals just as much if not more then Baker, that makes it hard to believe that you guys wouldn’t care.

Heh. Improved command.

Heat maps are badass

Why can’t we have this instead of Joe’s Tracer?

because FSN doesn't employ me.
I would kill to see you replace Krueger.

I want to see Matthew’s Keys to the Game every day.

What's stopping you?
Matthew's Keys to the Game:

1 – Fuck this I want us to lose
2 – MORE CAIRO
3 – Bench Clement and Reed

I still can't make myself root for the M's to lose.
4-Delicios Beer of local origin
Christ almighty
Even he can't save that spelling error.

:)

This convinces me that I must immediately stab Krueger to death.

Your FSN job awaits you, Matthew.

I would hope he would purposefully use ridiculous keys with little relevance to baseball
Do you think hair gel really writes his own stuff?

Or do the M’s just ask him what he thinks then write up a bunch of cheesy “keys”?

I need someone to give me links to all of those Krueger funny-face pictures.

I’m going to make the Krueger Collage.

My keys to the game would all come from a random phrase generator.

And then I would just state them with no explanation all the while having the biggest smug expression on my face.

This is precisely what I would pay to watch
Also, I wouldn't wear pants.
I can't see under the desk

Fine by me

Plus, at least one key per game would be derived from an LL meme.

And I would speak in my best black voice to counter-balance Dave Simms.

Now we all need a recording of your best black voice.
JI?
Did I typo something?
"is"
Before you pointed this out I read it 3 times and didn't see the missing "is"
How did I forget an entire word?

Dammit JI syndrome is manifesting again.

Wait

That’s exactly what I meant.

“Now we all need a recording of your best black voice.”

That’s perfectly acceptable. I didn’t mean to say:

“Now all we need is a recording of your best black voice.”

That's why I didn't see anything missing!
What the hell

I read that like four times and read “now all we need” every time.

WTF JI SYNDROME HAS SPREAD TO READING

It threw me off for a bit as well.
JI syndrome is 50% reading.
no I was prompting the racist gif
This sentence is fine.
As long as you would accept a different pun from me to air once a week (or year) I'm all aboard
Fuck it, a new pun every day!

Also, the keys will be shown along side a photoshop.

You're not the UW baseball team.
Doesn't the job require that you explain them?
Manatees in a tank with words on balls?

Sounds like a solid idea…

Nah, that's been done.
Opposing Hitters
One possible reason for that might be because said pitcher was facing, on average, pretty mediocre hitters.

I read this somewhere else the other day too (probably one of Jeff’s or Dave’s posts).

I don’t doubt the difference, we saw the list of opponents he faced. But is it possible to quantify the level of mediocrity, e.g. the combined OPS+ of his opponents, or something more relevent/descriptive?

Stupid bloody quotes

and my stupid failure to not preview when using quotes
>:o(

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