I know it already seems like Pick on Geoff Baker Day between LL and USSM, but it's my turn to chip in.
We went over this a couple of weeks back when U.S.S. Mariner took a swipe at Jarrod Washburn -- called him an idiot, I believe -- for saying he had better command. Mentioned his strike ratios and walk ratios. But that basic premise shows a lack of understanding of the meaning of command in the major leagues, which isn't exclusively about the ability to throw strikes and not walk guys. Well, part of it is, that's true. But right here is an example of a guy who throws tons of strikes -- but who also has no command.Sometimes, the ball is an inch or two too close to a hitter's sweet spot. They live on the edge. With Washburn, lately, he's gotten on the better side of that edge because of a mechanical adjustment (or so he says). He'll still give up some extra base hits, as he did the other night. But so far, he isn't getting crushed like he was in May. So, if that makes him an idiot, OK.
These quotes come from here.
Here is how this reads to me, and if Geoff wants to correct my assumptions, I'm all ears.
I buy the first point. There's a rather intuitive way to break down a pitcher's skills.
Command and control are somewhat related, but can be thought of as distinct skills. Pitchers can have good control with bad command by just aiming for the heart of the zone and pitchers can have good command but bad control.
The problem comes from the second point.
Sometimes, the ball is an inch or two too close to a hitter's sweet spot. They live on the edge. With Washburn, lately, he's gotten on the better side of that edge.
I'm going to make another assumption here and go back to Washburn's June 9th start as the beginning of this good period since that's when he had the first traditionally good result of this recent run.
Washburn strike%, pre-6/9: 62%
Washburn strike%, post-6/9: 61%
(hattip: Jeff for these)
Okay, you might argue, but that just tells us his control isn't any better, it doesn't say anything about his command. Well, Washburn's post-6/9 LD% is higher than it was in either of his first two seasons as a Mariner (again, thanks Jeff). Furthermore,

These are Washburn's heat maps with all pitches (excluding his relief appearance) from the start of the year through June 2nd on the left and all pitches from June 9th onward on the right. Does the picture on the right look like a mapping of a pitcher staying away from hitter's sweet spots? It doesn't to me. It looks like the exact opposite. It looks like a pitcher chucking the ball in the center of the zone. One possible reason for that might be because said pitcher was facing, on average, pretty mediocre hitters.
I'm not going to speculate on what Geoff Baker's motivation was in particular, but I will use this to point out again what is a typical trademark of results-based analysis: the results are known going in. You know that Jarrod Washburn has pitched better^ over his last x-odd starts so you go hunting for a reason. Seeing what you might believe to be an effect and then going back and trying to connect it to a cause is bad science and it's going to be incorrect a vast majority of the time.
^by your definition, which may not be shared by others.
3 recs | 127 comments
How does a pitcher go about having good command but bad control?
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
It isn't 'bad' control
but Tom Glavine’s a guy who for long stretches has had impeccable command and so-so control. Maybe Rick Sutcliffe as well…
marc w - July 9, 2008
Here's the way I think of it.
Command is the ability to hit a certain spot. Let’s say we have two pitchers who want to aim for a point X and they throw 100 pitches at that point. Pitcher A misses by an average of 6 inches. Pitcher B misses by an average of 4 inches. Pitcher B has better command.
But lets say in a game Pitcher A constantly aims for the center of the plate, thigh high. Since he’s aiming for the middle of the plate, he has 8.5 inches on each side to miss so he’s going to throw a lot of strikes (good control) but will miss his spot a lot and generally be “wild within the zone” (bad command).
Pitcher B, on the other hand, is a smarter pitcher and constantly aims for the edges of the strike zone. Half the time he’s going to miss wide and it will be a ball so he’s going to throw many more balls than Pitcher A (bad control). However, he’s also rarely ever going to throw a pitch near the center of the plate since he’d have to miss by ~8 inches from his spot (good command).
Matthew - July 9, 2008
So a guy with better command could have a lower strike% because the better command allows him to work the corners?
Because otherwise it looks pitcher B has better command but is, to revive a much-missed phrase, pitching stupid.
Bearskin Rugburn - July 9, 2008
In a nutshell way, yes
though I wouldn’t called Pitcher B the stupid one necessarily.
Matthew - July 9, 2008
That was along the lines I was thinking
Thanks for clarifying
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
Jesus Christ almighty, it looks like he's been pitching much worse since 6/9.
I hope to God we trade him before we start facing some teams that can actually hit.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
Control and command are the same thing
How about we just call it “aim”? When a pitcher aims for a certain spot, how likely is he to hit that spot? Or you can look at probabilistically—when a pitcher aims for a spot, what size is the zone that he hits 90% of the time?
Pitchers with equal “aim” will throw more or fewer strikes depending on their stuff. 85 mph fastball? Aim off the plate 40% of the time. 95 mph fastball? Aim off the plate only 20% of the time. Both guys are maximizing their skills to produce the best results they can. The first guy is trading an increasing in walks for a decrease in homeruns. The second guy will give up fewer homeruns and thus shouldn’t risk the walks.
It’s also possible to have various amounts of aim with different pitches.
Sky Kalkman - July 9, 2008
"Control and command are the same thing"
No they’re not
Graham MacAree - July 9, 2008
Care to expand?
Or can I say this—the ability to throw a pitch for strikes instead of balls and the ability to throw a pitch where you want it in the strike zone are results of the same skill.
Stuff is definitely different—velocity, break, mechanical deception. But being able to aim the ball, no matter where you’re aiming, is still just aiming.
Sky Kalkman - July 9, 2008
They're separated out because they're two different grades of the same underlying skill
And then they have different results – control is avoiding walks, command is avoiding hard contact.
Graham MacAree - July 9, 2008
But what's the point of separating them out if we're judging skills?
If anything, I’d prefer to have these these two skills in my model of pitching talent: aim and being smart enough to know where to aim.
Sky Kalkman - July 9, 2008
We'd all prefer that.
The fact of the matter is, though, that there are many pitchers who can throw strikes with no idea of where they’re going (aside from the strike zone) and pitchers who can avoid the middle of the zone consistently while throwing a lot of pitches outside the zone. Pitchers that can do both are much more hard to come by.
So, while they’re related, they’re not the same thing, and it’s worthwhile to differentiate between the two.
Aaron Campeau - July 9, 2008
Accuracy vs Precision
This is the same situation that you learn about in High School Chemistry.
Control is exactly like Accuracy. Your pitches might be somewhat close to the target, but vary wildly around the target.
Command is closer to Precision. Your pitches may or may not be on target, but they are consistently close together in a repeatable fashion.
Images from Wikipedia on Accuracy
batura - July 9, 2008
I guess I don’t understand why the “target” in the command/control model is the strike zone. I want to know whether a pitcher can hit his spot, whatever that spot might be. Where the pitcher aims is going to depend a lot on his stuff.
If one pitcher consistently aims for the outside corner and throws 60% strikes while a second pitcher aims four inches on the plate and throws 65% strikes, why would you give the second pitcher credit for having a better skill in anything resembling “aiming”. He probably is a worse aimer, but has better stuff.
The only reason I can see the command/control model having any practical use that we know, through data, what percentage of pitches are throw for strikes. But command is in the realm of scouting (or was, until PITCHf/x). Of course, to rate a pitcher’s skill at “aiming” you have to know where he was trying to throw each pitch—but that same difficulty exists for command.
In my model, there are only two basic pitching skills—stuff and aim (which is closer to command than control, although the word “control” fits better.) What is traditionally called control is a combination of stuff and aim
Sky Kalkman - July 10, 2008
GEOFF BAKER ORDERED THE DESTRUCTION OF ALDERAAN
Graham MacAree - July 9, 2008
This is blatantly untrue and you know it
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
Destroyed.... BY THE EMPIRE!
BrianL - July 9, 2008
Geoff Baker is friends with the Ewoks.
Thingray - July 9, 2008
D'awwwwww.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
I apparently don't understand what command is
But the guy who wanted to acquire Dontrelle Willis, Matt Morris, Eric Gagne, Al Reyes, and Carlos Silva – that guy knows pitching. Since I don’t understand a basic element of how pitchers get people out, that explains why I was so massively wrong in suggesting that Tim Hudson, Scott Baker, Jose Contreras, Tim Redding, J.P. Howell, and Edwin Jackson would have been good pitchers to acquire.
Oh, wait, I wasn’t wrong about that.
For a guy who loves results, his track record of evaluating pitching is disastrous, and ours is pretty fricking good.
davidcameron - July 9, 2008
I'm still feeling smug about Dontrelle Willis
Graham MacAree - July 9, 2008
What would we have to be wrong about to equal his take on Jones for Willis?
I mean, really, what’s a comparable opinion to that? That Arizona would be better if they moved Brandon Webb to the bullpen? That Kenji’s native tongue is Spanish?
I mean, really, if I’m ever that wrong about something, I fully expect to have to retire in shame.
davidcameron - July 9, 2008
Griffey for DH, Teixeira for 1B in 2009?
:(
Matthew - July 9, 2008
I still want Tex dammit
Graham MacAree - July 9, 2008
For how much/how long?
marc w - July 9, 2008
90ish/5
Fat bloody chance of that though
Graham MacAree - July 9, 2008
Yup
and the 5 still makes me nervous.
Just not sure how that guy will age…
marc w - July 9, 2008
I assume he'll get a year older every 365 days
That’s just a guess though ;)
Graham MacAree - July 9, 2008
Man, that joke is late.
Matthew - July 9, 2008
Only took him three minutes.
In some circles that’s “business time”.
Thingray - July 9, 2008
Similar joke appeared re: Tex a month+ ago.
Matthew - July 9, 2008
I retract my previous statement.
Thingray - July 9, 2008
in 2012
he’ll get older even slower than that.
LantermanC - July 9, 2008
That the Rays are a fluke
Jeff Sullivan - July 9, 2008
So many people believe this it's infuriating
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
Fine by me.
I’ve already told you about my friend the Giants fan who is going to owe me a crapload of money when the Rays finish above .500.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
Yeah, but after you make the bet you want to be able to explain why he's wrong
Some people just don’t listen
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
The money makes me overlook these things.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
I tiptoe around the more nerdy POV of baseball when talking to friends without diving into it
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
I start with OPS and work my up.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
I stop at OPS
I had the hardest time explaining to one of my friends that the overall W-L from an entire season is a better way to judge a team than just their playoff performance
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
No, you don't want to explain.
You admit that it’s a fluke so you can take more money from his dumb ass.
Teej - July 9, 2008
I prefer to be around smart people
and if that fails, I prefer to educate the dumb people
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
Me too!
JI - July 9, 2008
I still can't believe he lobbied to trade Clement and Wlad for some of those pitchers.
Thank God the Tigers took the Dontrelle bullet for us.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
Yeah, but that bullet was wrapped
in what looked like/still looks like a sure-fire hall of fame hitter. Makes it easier to take.
marc w - July 9, 2008
Except that hitter is no longer a terrible 3B
and is now a mediocre 1B.
Glove + position, Cabrera’s defense costs his value probably 15+ runs.
Matthew - July 9, 2008
I don't get why he's not DHing
Graham MacAree - July 9, 2008
They want him to move around some so he doesn't reach 400 pounds.
Thingray - July 9, 2008
Sheffield?
Matthew - July 9, 2008
Would be a better 1B than Miggy I suspect
Graham MacAree - July 9, 2008
THT's stats show Miggy as being about average
Npt bad RZR, poor (though not god-awful) OOZ play rate.
marc w - July 9, 2008
I admit I'm only basing this off having watched him play a few times
Graham MacAree - July 9, 2008
Sheff used to be a third baseman, didn't he?
Thingray - July 9, 2008
15 years ago maybe...
Edgar used to be a 3B too…
Paseman - July 9, 2008
He liked to make errors on purpose.
JI - July 9, 2008
He was a shortstop
marc w - July 9, 2008
as well
JI - July 9, 2008
as were most right handed throwing infielders.
JI - July 9, 2008
As were basically any good baseball players
at some point.
But yes, Sheff came up as a SS with Milwaukee, and later moved to 3b.
marc w - July 9, 2008
He was a SS at some point I think
If you go far enough back in baseball mogul you can draft him as an SS
BrettJMiller - July 9, 2008
I really doubt this.
JI - July 9, 2008
That's why I said 'hitter'
as a player, his value has taken quite a hit in the past 3 years or so.
I think 15 runs is probably about right, considering he still had some time at 3b this year, but the team took some steps to staunch the blood loss by moving him to 1b.
marc w - July 9, 2008
Aw it's OK you'll learn one day
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
My opinion of Baker is quite the rollercoaster ride.
I love his beat writing, and he’s occasionally hilarious, but he takes criticism from his readers far too personally, and he’s been taking a lot of ad hominem swipes at USSM as of late. I’m in a “this guy kind of pisses me off” phase right now.
Aaron Campeau - July 9, 2008
I loved his Winter Meeting coverage so much.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
More of that.
Less being a dick.
Aaron Campeau - July 9, 2008
(I mean Baker, just in case there was any confusion.)
Aaron Campeau - July 9, 2008
I'm still hoping he resigns
and goes to another city to cover their sports…. he’d be a perfect fit in Oklahoma City….
MfaninAlaska - July 9, 2008
Geoff Baker is a far better beat writer than the last hack we had to deal with.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
who cares about Beat writers
he’s just another mouth piece that doesn’t understand baseball or statistical evaluation
MfaninAlaska - July 9, 2008
I care a lot about beat writers.
And he understands a lot about baseball.
Aaron Campeau - July 9, 2008
I greatly enjoy the beat writing Baker does.
He’s fantastic at that, just look at his coverage of the winter meetings. That was Grade-A coverage that you wouldn’t have gotten from any other beat writer that covers this club. That kind of stuff is valuable to fans.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
his coverage of the winter meetings
was nothing special…. he wrote what he heard…. big deal, pocket lint did that too… Baker is just a tad better then pocket lint at writing, but he’s also worse in that he thinks he knows more about evaluation of player performance then he does…..
So I am sticking with my sentiments that I hope he packs up and leaves so someone that truly understands evaluation of players and statistics can be brought in, to add something to the discussion.
MfaninAlaska - July 9, 2008
Baker is ten times the writer Finnigan ever was.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
not really...
both are just fluff writers….. nothing either one of them writes is ground breaking or all that intuitive. There are much better writers out there that aren’t employed by newspapers.
MfaninAlaska - July 9, 2008
Dislike Baker for what he does poorly, pitching evaluation.
There is absolutely no reason to bash his ability to cover the team. Sure, he annoys me at times, but I give him credit for being extremely good at what he does.
And for the love of God, proper punctuation and capitalization.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
I can bash him all I like.
His skills are nothing impressive. I fully dislike his writing style and his belief that he understands more about statistical evaluation then he fully does. And excuse my lack of punctuation, I’m trying to do 3 things at once. I didn’t realize that it bothered you so much to have someone try and write a quick reply, I’ll strive to make my sentences fully structured and punctualized from now on.
MfaninAlaska - July 9, 2008
It appears as though you just don't care for beat writers in general.
That’s fine. But a lot of other people do, and Baker is much better at it than most.
Aaron Campeau - July 9, 2008
Actually, there are plenty of beat writers I like
Baker just isn’t one of them, in my opinion he’s the Richie Sexson of beat writing. Every once in a while he’ll hit one out of the park but the majority of the time he’ll swing and miss, which is why he gets raked over the coals here and on USSM so frequently.
MfaninAlaska - July 9, 2008
He gets raked over the coals here because we hold him to an extremely high standard.
Why that high standard? Because he’s shown us in the past that he’s an excellent writer. If he wasn’t, we wouldn’t care.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
Pocket Lint wasn't an excellent writer.
He was raked over the coals just as much if not more then Baker, that makes it hard to believe that you guys wouldn’t care.
MfaninAlaska - July 9, 2008
Heh. Improved command.
Bearskin Rugburn - July 9, 2008
Heat maps are badass
Why can’t we have this instead of Joe’s Tracer?
Frosty Raptor - July 9, 2008
because FSN doesn't employ me.
Matthew - July 9, 2008
I would kill to see you replace Krueger.
I want to see Matthew’s Keys to the Game every day.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
What's stopping you?
Bearskin Rugburn - July 9, 2008
Matthew's Keys to the Game:
1 – Fuck this I want us to lose
2 – MORE CAIRO
3 – Bench Clement and Reed
Graham MacAree - July 9, 2008
I still can't make myself root for the M's to lose.
Thingray - July 9, 2008
4-Delicios Beer of local origin
Bearskin Rugburn - July 9, 2008
Christ almighty
Bearskin Rugburn - July 9, 2008
Even he can't save that spelling error.
:)
Thingray - July 9, 2008
This convinces me that I must immediately stab Krueger to death.
Your FSN job awaits you, Matthew.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
I would hope he would purposefully use ridiculous keys with little relevance to baseball
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
Do you think hair gel really writes his own stuff?
Or do the M’s just ask him what he thinks then write up a bunch of cheesy “keys”?
Thingray - July 9, 2008
I need someone to give me links to all of those Krueger funny-face pictures.
I’m going to make the Krueger Collage.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
My keys to the game would all come from a random phrase generator.
And then I would just state them with no explanation all the while having the biggest smug expression on my face.
Matthew - July 9, 2008
This is precisely what I would pay to watch
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
Also, I wouldn't wear pants.
Matthew - July 9, 2008
I can't see under the desk
Fine by me
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
Plus, at least one key per game would be derived from an LL meme.
And I would speak in my best black voice to counter-balance Dave Simms.
Matthew - July 9, 2008
Now we all need a recording of your best black voice.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
JI?
Bearskin Rugburn - July 9, 2008
Did I typo something?
BrianL - July 9, 2008
"is"
seattlebruin - July 9, 2008
Before you pointed this out I read it 3 times and didn't see the missing "is"
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
How did I forget an entire word?
Dammit JI syndrome is manifesting again.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
Wait
That’s exactly what I meant.
“Now we all need a recording of your best black voice.”
That’s perfectly acceptable. I didn’t mean to say:
“Now all we need is a recording of your best black voice.”
BrianL - July 9, 2008
That's why I didn't see anything missing!
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
What the hell
I read that like four times and read “now all we need” every time.
WTF JI SYNDROME HAS SPREAD TO READING
seattlebruin - July 9, 2008
It threw me off for a bit as well.
Thingray - July 9, 2008
JI syndrome is 50% reading.
JI - July 9, 2008
no I was prompting the racist gif
Bearskin Rugburn - July 9, 2008
I love that gif.
JI - July 9, 2008
2nded
Bearskin Rugburn - July 9, 2008
This sentence is fine.
JI - July 9, 2008
As long as you would accept a different pun from me to air once a week (or year) I'm all aboard
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
Fuck it, a new pun every day!
Also, the keys will be shown along side a photoshop.
Matthew - July 9, 2008
Yessir
Last Fan Of Jose Lopez - July 9, 2008
You're not the UW baseball team.
BrianL - July 9, 2008
Doesn't the job require that you explain them?
Thingray - July 9, 2008
Oh, like
this one here?
Bearskin Rugburn - July 9, 2008
Manatees in a tank with words on balls?
Sounds like a solid idea…
Frosty Raptor - July 9, 2008
Nah, that's been done.
Thingray - July 9, 2008
Opposing Hitters
MarkE - July 10, 2008
Stupid bloody quotes
and my stupid failure to not preview when using quotes
>:o(
MarkE - July 10, 2008
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