"The start after I hurt my hip, I felt discomfort in the last inning I pitched," Bedard said. "I know exactly when I did it. After that it got worse and worse"
Erik Bedard hurt his hip in this game also known as Opening Day, or better known now as the last day any single of us was ever happy with this loony bunch of retarded monkey bangers called a professional baseball team. Just in case this intolerable season has dulled your wits to the point where a ball of wax laying in the hot sun would be a sharper cutting instrument let me point out that this was the goddamn first start of the entire season! Erik Bedard has been experiencing shoulder discomfort, along with his myriad of other illnesses, plagues, epidemics, injuries and sympathy pains since THE FIRST START OF THE FECKIN SEASON!
But hey, none of that actually matters because Erik Bedard is a pussy right? He's so much of a pussy that's he thinks there's only 25 letters in the alphabet because he has no concept of the letter Y. That's how much of a weakling he is. At least, that's what the local media would have had you think up until today when I'm confident they will now backtrack and retroactively cover their asses. I would have liked to have every single word of that preceding sentence be a hot link to a piece showcasing the assbaggery that's occurred this season by the media in flaming Bedard for not pitching more, but lucky for them their words are so poorly archived so as to make finding where I left my last shred of happiness a more accomplishable task. Bravo.
Oh well, maybe it's for the best because you shouldn't have to be exposed to that trite a second time anyways because that would be akin to curiosity getting the better of you and deciding to investigate what the one mysterious light switch in your house actually controls only to find yourself opening a previously unknown door in some closet somewhere and being viciously attacked by scorpions wielding the sharded remains of blister packaging and then, once you finally escape from that surrealist nightmare, deciding, hey, you know what sounds fun? Doing that over again!
But that's neither here nor there nor in that demon closet. What's pertinent here is that once again we have an exhibit of a pitcher gutting it out through pain beyond reasonable measures and not owning up to it. Now, as I've written before, I can empathize with Bedard here. Nobody wants to admit they're hurting. But what I find tragically hilarious in all this is that our grandly delusional ideals about gritting it out through pain always end up with said hero being worshiped for the sheer gargantuanism of his testicles while in this case all that Bedard got was heaping piles of shit thrown his way by critics who used their inside access to ascertain that he was nothing but a tight-lipped jackass who didn't want to do them any favors in the way of making their job easier with silly banal quotes and so in turn they slammed him while he sat around and stewed in what must have been agonizing pain and got blamed for it.
I don't want to get into all the layers of blame that go into this because frankly everyone deserves blame and trying to figure out who deserves what proportions is ultimately more fruitless than trying to figure out why Jim Riggelman draws a salary while a collection of penguins with down's syndrome and a fetish for swimming into the mouths of killer whales would make a better manager. Suffice to say however that screw you Bill Bavasi for making that blindingly obviously stupid trade in the first place; screw you Mel Stottlemyre for being so bad at your job that you either didn't notice your ace pitcher was having shoulder pain or so negligent that you didn't care; and screw you media for questioning Bedard's heart while taking swipes at the blogging community when you knew as much of the complete story as we bloggers did.
Erik, I wish you would stay because I do have a raging inner lust for your curveball, but unlike when Adrian leaves is forced out, I will shed no tears for you because I will know that you will be better off somewhere that doesn't treat it's most talented players as pinatas for their wank sessions. Find health and happiness Erik.
7 recs | 224 comments
I was wondering why his control was so poor that day.
JI - September 17, 2008
I maintain that the press treats intelligent players
and non-EFL speakers worse, but I am pissed off and too apathetic to do the research.
JI - September 17, 2008
"as pinatas for their wank sessions."
I have no idea what this means, or how a pinata might come in useful in… that situation, but I still feel this phrase contains the emotional truth of FUCK YOU EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS SHIT.
marc w - September 17, 2008
So what happens now?
Does the media backtrack and try to make it look like they weren’t being irresponsible assholes when they were bashing Bedard on a daily basis?
Do they continue bashing Bedard for pitching while hurt instead of getting his shoulder scoped back in May or June, all at the same time ignoring the fact that media darlings Carlos Silva, Miguel Batista, and Jarrod Washburn pitched through pain and absolutely sucked up the joint?
Every one of you goddamn talking heads in the media owes Bedard an enormous apology, but I know he’s not going to get it. Why?
Because your integrity is just as awful as the false image of Erik Bedard’s integrity, an image that you fostered and perpetuated without a shred of evidence.
BrianL - September 17, 2008
This just goes to show if you don't suck the media's proverbial dick and tell them what they want to hear
They have no qualms about slandering you. They’re just bullies is what it is, they know that there is power in media and they’ll levy it against you if you don’t assume the position.
There isn’t going to be a single retraction or apology over this, I’ll bet.
OlSalty - September 17, 2008
I bet they flame him even more.
“Why was this pussy so pussy about getting surgery earlier in the season? What a fucking pussy and now his pussyness has hurt our 2009 season.”
Wilder. - September 18, 2008
This is what I'm expecting, to be honest.
BrianL - September 18, 2008
...
Aaron Campeau - September 18, 2008
Prophetic.
BrianL - September 18, 2008
I'm trying to determine the level of irony
In this.
ThundaPC - September 17, 2008
The comments are pretty amusing.
JI - September 17, 2008
Fuck it.
I’m tired of reading player’s minds. He was hurt- he should have told the team. It’s his fault that he finally got an MRI on July 22nd- 3.5 months after he started feeling the pain and another 3.5 months off the rehab schedule.
This is no different than the bullshit Raul pulled last year- played hurt, sucked, finally let the team and later the media/fans know as if that was some sort of valid explanation.
I agree that Bedard has been vilified by the media, but is it really that surprising? He wasn’t telling it straight up, or really telling much at all, while the media was trying to make sense of trading the farm for him. It’s a situation that nobody wins in.
Its like being mad at a co-worker who hasn’t been keeping up on the job while hiding the fact they have cancer- in the end, you feel like a dick, but in reality, they weren’t doing their jobs and you didn’t have all the facts.
batura - September 18, 2008
Also
The main thing, I’m just glad that we know what’s going on and we don’t have to hear all the speculation anymore.
I never wanted the trade, but when it was a foregone conclusion, I was at least excited to see him pitch. Once we realized that wasn’t going to be good, it was hard to try and deduce what the situation was— we all suspected he was more hurt than we had told, but it was very ominous. Could have been anything from inflammation to … well, a labrum tear.
batura - September 18, 2008
The difference here is that very few people are glorified for working through cancer.
Should Bedard have let people know he was hurting? Yes, absolutely. But the “warrior” mentality is a huge part of the culture of baseball, and sports in general. This is a byproduct of a tradition of ridiculousness. Bedard may have some culpability here, but the vast majority of major leaguers would have done the same thing. This is a huge problem that costs teams (and players) truckloads of money, and it needs to stop, but it’s not going to change overnight.
Aaron Campeau - September 18, 2008
The local media will never admit that they were wrong in any way
Most likely, we won’t ever hear much about Bedard again from the local media, beyond the obvious mentions of how terrible the trade really was. Look at how it’s been for the past couple months… Bedard’s rehab status merited maybe a footnote every two weeks. Now that he really isn’t gonna be seen again, they never have to talk about him and he goes down in history as the bust pitcher who didn’t give at all and eventually just disappeared.
Simon Phoenix - September 18, 2008
Hearing 'one-two PUNCH' over and over again from the local luddites
sure seems like a LOOOOONG time ago right now . . . my God, how on earth did we get raped this badly by THE ORIOLES. I could understand Beane or Epstein doing this to us, but Angelos? Really? Suck me sideways . . .
300ZXNA - September 18, 2008
I just got home from an awesome show
And this ruined my night. My girlfriend was wondering why I was alternately whimpering and shouting at the computer. Then I told her that means she has to put up with another year of this garbage team, and that this is probably the final nail in the Beltre coffin.
Now we’re both whimpering and shouting.
Smegmalicious - September 18, 2008
Well, how nice.
So, I guess the Felix/Washburn/Silva/Batista/Morrow or RRS rotation is still available for 2009? Lovely.
eponymous_coward - September 18, 2008
Also
Might not want to include Baker in the “Bedard is a pussy” brigade.
Now, I may get fried for writing this, but I’m not sure I subscribe to the whole “Bedard is a wimp” notion that I’ve seen come up in the blogosphere of late. I’m always reluctant to describe professional athletes this way. Let’s face it, many of them could take you or me apart in quick fashion. Not sure “wimps” describes them in reality, once we get beyond normal frustration at their performances. Bedard came to Seattle with a bulldog reputation and I’ve seen that bulldog approach on the mound from him all season. When he walks guys, like he did the other day against Detroit, he battles to prevent them from scoring. He doesn’t give up a grand slam on the next pitch. So, I don’t see a wimp there. This is where Bedard could really help himself by being a little more human and less standoffish with the media. His image has taken a hit in Seattle and around the game. Not because the media is trying to collectively bury him. But because fans are questioning his heart, based on what they see on the field, and he is doing nothing to address their concerns. Nothing to shut them up — on the mound or off it.
As his own PR agent, he should stick to pitching. Or hire an image consultant who knows what they are doing.
But in my eyes, I still see the bulldog mentality I’d heard about.
eponymous_coward - September 18, 2008
I really dislike that comment.
JI - September 18, 2008
Unbelievable.
Unbefuckinglievable. I am so goddamn tired of this hypermasculinity bullshit.
From Bedard: “like everybody else in the game, I stopped pitching when I couldn’t handle the pain. After my last start, I couldn’t lift my arm.”
Is everyone in baseball retarded? Does everyone in the game think it’s a good idea to go out and work and pitch until you are physically unable to? Is everyone so in love with stories like Dave Dravecky and Kirk Fucking Gibson that everyone must always play hurt? I…. I don’t understand how so many people could seemingly be so stupid. It baffles me.
Nick S - September 18, 2008
Because it's drilled into every athlete from day 1.
People who give up because of pain get cut when they’re kids. I’m not a neanderthal by any means, but I had it drilled into me at every level of sports from t-ball to college rugby. That attitude led me to play full games of rugby with broken ribs, box with a broken nose and a concussion, play water polo with a pinched nerve in my back and wrestle with a hyper extended knee and a sublexed kneecap.
Maybe I had the same kinds of coaches guys like this did, or maybe we just have some kind of competitive switch that kicks on, but it’s not an intelligence thing. Reason gets taken out of the equation. There’s some drive to just keep going, to play through the pain and I think it has a lot to do with early coaching.
Smegmalicious - September 18, 2008
Also, these guys hurt every single day, and they're aware of what could be at stake.
Part of it is a high pain tolerance and part of it almost certainly fear.
Aaron Campeau - September 18, 2008
Reinforcement of that mindset from just about everyone else around you
That’s how.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Without this mindset of working through pain
you wouldn’t have atheletes.
How fast do you think you could run a mile if you stopped after you started feeling some pain?
How many plays in a football game do you think you could play before you tweaked something or got rocked which made you hurt a little?
Atheletes do things with their body that are not natural. Usually this causes some level of pain. It is up to a player (and team/manager) to figure out when the pain is serious or not. It is much more difficult than we would think for most sports. I can only talk about football/basketball type injuries. I have no idea what a torn labrum feels like but it might not be that easy to tell for a player.
Edgar for Pres - September 18, 2008
Seems simple to just shut it down when the pain begins to manifest itself in your results
I can understand Bedard not speaking up, because he was pitching reasonably well despite the injury.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
But athletes only know the difference between tolerable and intolerable pain
not “long-term-damage” pain and “work-through-it” pain.
johnbai - September 18, 2008
If you're Bedard, and you're hurt, and your ERA is under 4, you keep pitching
if you’re Batista, and you’re hurt, and your ERA is over 7, quit it.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
I agree, but expecting the players to make those choices is silly
It’s a manager’s job to be aware of those facts and make the call.
johnbai - September 18, 2008
I dunno, I've always figured a pitcher is his own best pitching coach
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Monthly MRI's for everyone!
Edgar for Pres - September 18, 2008
Also, I can only begin to imagine the fear he must have had at finding this exact result.
He may never be the same pitcher. Ever again.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
There have been players that have lost their positions to the replacement.
So I can understand the fear of giving it up. Lots of different reasons for players to try and play through pain, I think it’s a situation where it’s more like a recipe than any one thing. Not saying it’s smart, especially for a pitcher. It’s such a finesse position. 300 lb lineman with a club for a hand, or a sore shoulder? Not the same situation. Neither is a position player. Hope this didn’t ruin Bedard’s career, if he’s not the same, I hope he can adjust.
dpseadv - September 18, 2008
lessee ....
a) he loves pitching & competing (according to his former manager)
b) he’d missed the end of the previous season, and felt he’d let his team down
c) he was with a new team, and annointed the no. 1 (contrary to his opinion)
msb - September 18, 2008
Maybe
Pain is of course a part of being serious about any sport. Any athlete must learn to be able to train and compete with pain
But so is understanding and listening to your own body. Ultimately it’s your body. Not the coaches’, not the team’s. And it’s difficult for the trainers / coaches too properly assess a player’s fitness if he’s not fully honest with them, such as with John Maine or Dan Meyer. Not saying that Bedard was so.
rfloh - September 19, 2008
I don't want to ruin the flow of comments,
but trite (hackneyed) is an adjective, and while it describes them so well, I think you’re looking for tripe (worthless shit), the comparable noun.
Feel free to hide this.
Faux - September 18, 2008
I pointed this out to him last night
Matthew Carruth says (23:30):
I went for combining shite, tripe and parts of the actual definition of trite
Matthew Carruth says (23:30):
Admittedly, it makes sense only to myself
Graham MacAree - September 18, 2008
OK then.
If we can use Corco as a verb, I guess using trite as a noun isn’t so bad.
Faux - September 18, 2008
This would only work
if the made-up word wasn’t already an existing word in the English language. To any reader it just looks like a typo… and given that Matthew doesn’t make many of those… I concluded that he was drunk when he posted.
johnbai - September 18, 2008
I appreciate the thought, but I make many typos.
Firefox just usually catches them.
In this case, I did consciously know that tripe fit better grammatically, but I like trite better as a definition and I’m not above shoe-horning words in where they don’t conventionally belong.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
I fixed three typos in this post minutes after it went up
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
How cute, it's like role reversal therapy.
Which three?
Matthew - September 18, 2008
I don't remember, they were pretty minor
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
I guess I was just hoping that he was drunk
It would explain the weird anger style of the post… Like a mountain beaver viciously attacking a clown shoe.
johnbai - September 18, 2008
I love this comment.
Kirsten Schlewitz - September 18, 2008
You missed an it's/its, so quit bragging.
Teej - September 18, 2008
Only on LL, everyone.
Kirsten Schlewitz - September 18, 2008
My apolagies Mr. Bedard.
I was one of many who chided you for your seeming lack of masculinity, and I was wrong. I’m sorry.
thewyrm - September 18, 2008
Amazing.
Goose - September 18, 2008
Fuck Seattle sports.
It just isn’t fair. Without a doubt, I am moving to California.
.Taylor - September 18, 2008
It doesn't work
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Name five good managers and what makes them good
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Not Jim Riggelman, Not Jim Riggelman, Not Jim Riggelman, Not Jim Riggelman and Not Jim Riggelman
They are good because they exhibit qualities that make them not like Jim Riggelman (or John McLaren or Mike Hargrove).
Matthew - September 18, 2008
Coach Owens 09!
Robert - September 18, 2008
Riggleman
But no, really, every fan of every team can find 6723842846278463 reasons why their manager is a complete fucking moron. So who out there is a good manager? If we know who is bad, then there has to be multiple managers who are in fact good. What makes a good manager a good manager, and who out exhibits those decision-making qualities? So basically:
- I can be more sure Riggleman is an absolute retard if there is an actual benchmark of good/competent management we can compare him against… than if some blogger tells us ad nauseum that he sucks.
- I’m not sure bringing in someone else solves the problem (seemingly bad decision making with lineup and bullpen usage)
Gomez - September 18, 2008
A good manager doesn't bat Jose Vidro cleanup
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Period
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Hmmm...
Even when the rest of your lineup is this:
SS: Oswaldo Navarro
C: G. Quiroz
1b: Miguel Cairo
2b: L. Valbuena
3b: W. Bloomquist
LF: J. Ellison
CF: C. Jimerson
RF: M. Morse
DH: Vidro.
Personally, I’d still bat Morse cleanup, so you might have a point…
PositivePaul - September 18, 2008
We've been over this before
This assumes Riggleman has complete autonomy over lineup decisions.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Assuming otherwise
is retarded unless you have specific knowledge to the contrary.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
Basing absolute belief on a similar assumption is similarly retarded
Gomez - September 18, 2008
So why isn't this extended to all parts of his job?
How do evaluate any decision since we cannot 100% guarantee that he has the authority to make it?
Managers fill out lineup cards. If Riggelman is an exception to that because he lacks the authority from the front office to do one of the most base jobs of a manager, then that’s an equally horrific mark against him as is him choosing on his own to bat Vidro cleanup. or to pinch hit Miguel Cairo for Wlad Balentien. Or for any of the other 10,000 stupid moves.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
If Riggleman accepted a manager position
where he doesn’t have the right to fill out the lineup card… then he’s an idiot and a bad manager.
johnbai - September 18, 2008
If only it were that easy to judge
Gomez - September 18, 2008
You understand that the burden of proof is on you right
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
You're the one speaking in absolutes
Gomez - September 18, 2008
You're the one who thinks there's a defense for Riggleman batting Vidro cleanup
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
There's no rational defense for it
There’s also no definitive proof it was solely his decision because he believed it gave the Mariners the best chance to win.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
There is zero evidence that this was anything but Riggleman's decision
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
We have no evidence either way other than a handful of quotes and the official lineups
So if I have no leg to stand on, then neither do you.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Our evidence is that the manager is always responsible for the lineup card
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
As far as writing it out and taking it to the umpiring crew
Anything beyond that is outside of our scope.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Jose Vidro hit .340 in the second half and got released
if the front office were looking for a return on their investment, they got it. But then they released him.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
And who knows why
“They’re stupid” is the simple answer, which ignores a ton of factors.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
You're serious
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
My point all along is that none of these things are as simple in basis as we want to believe
So saying the field manager is stupid without considering various factors at play is leaping to a conclusion.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
These aren't factors at play, this is baseless speculation
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Not to mention that it's not based on a lone decision.
It’s based on mountains of decisions during his tenure.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
Okay
So why did Jim Riggleman pencil in Jose Vidro 4th everyday?
You seem to believe you know.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Because he is a bad manager?
Hasn’t that been my point this whole time?
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Okay
Who is a good manager? Like I originally asked… who are five good managers, and what makes them good?
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Mike Scioscia, TLR, Joe Maddon, Terry Francona, Lou Piniella
none of them have ever batted Jose Vidro cleanup
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
There are other criteria for good managers
You mentioned yourself that Riggleman made countless other mistakes. Cite how these managers did not make those mistakes.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
I do think that Mike Scioscia is a good manager.
johnbai - September 18, 2008
But Jeff, you're not addressing the intent of Gomez's question
johnbai - September 18, 2008
Am I supposed to throw together a complete managerial tendency profile for everyone in the Majors?
I have watched teams whose managers made smart decisions. I have watched teams whose managers didn’t make stupid decisions. I have watched teams whose managers did make stupid decisions. Jim Riggleman makes stupid decisions. Some other managers are similar. Many are not.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
I can't argue against you re: Riggleman
because I honestly haven’t watched more than 3-4 games in the last couple months.
I don’t think you can throw together an analysis of every manager… but at least explain specifics like: his lineups are poorly constructed… his use of veterans or rookies is inappropriate… his bullpen use is poor… his motivational speeches are limp and smell slightly of mildew.
johnbai - September 18, 2008
Jim Riggleman batted Jose Vidro cleanup and has Miguel Cairo platooning at first base
That’s pretty out there.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
He made bad decisions in a vacuum
No other managers do this?
I will admit we ran this way off the rails. I think, if we took a good look at the vast majority of managers in MLB, we would see them make a ton of stupid decisions. Blasting Riggleman is to assume no other manager would have made such poor decisions (not those decisions specifically, but decisions on that level of nonsense). Lou using Bobby Ayala as his closer forever is one quick example.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
These aren't just bad decisions
These are horrible decisions that reflect very very poorly on Riggleman as a manager. Batting Jose Vidro cleanup is one of those things where you see it and you instantly know that the manager isn’t very good at his job.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Bobby Ayala was good in 1994 and stopped closing down the stretch in 1995 due to the emergence of Charlton
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
I think these have all been covered in great detail in other places, but as a quick note
Lineups
-Aforementioned Vidro, constant use of Raul in LF after dumping of Vidro.
Use of vets/rookies
-constant platooning of young players despite season being lost, pinch hitting Cairo for young players
Bullpen use
-Continued overtaxing Sean Green, uses people like Cesar Jimenez as a LOOGY despite not having the skillset to match, continued use of Miguel Batista in high leverage situations
there are many more.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
Okay, criteria
Jeff named Scoiscia. Let’s name a few others.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
He also named four others.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
I'm trying to find where
I believe you. What examples are there of their good decision making, and can fans of those teams verify that those managers have never made stupid decisions with regularity?
Gomez - September 18, 2008
JI has already vouched for TLR
isn’t “they don’t fuck up” good enough? Because they don’t. I even agreed with Maddon pulling Upton for the hustling thing and I usually hate that sort of discipline.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
It is that easy to judge and in the absense of contrary information, your assertion that it's not
is baffling to say the least.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
Our friont office is not at all meddlesome with the 25 man roster?
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Meddling with transactions != meddling with the lineup card
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
We can definitively prove the field manager is left completely alone to make his own decisions?
Gomez - September 18, 2008
I believe JJ Putz blew that first save against Texas on purpose
We can’t definitively prove otherwise.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Now THAT is being silly
Gomez - September 18, 2008
That's like his only job
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
That doesn't prove or disprove the assertion
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Why would Riggleman not have complete autonomy over lineup decisions?
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
The front office may see things differently?
Gomez - September 18, 2008
How would batting Jose Vidro cleanup be of any benefit to the front office?
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Tanking games?
Trying futilely to find some return on their horrible investment?
Who knows. We know the front office are a bunch of meddlesome idiots who couldn’t run a Dairy Queen.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
What evidence is there to suggest that the front office wanted to tank games?
What evidence is there to suggest that batting Jose Vidro would in any way provide a return on the investment?
What evidence is there to suggest that the front office has ever overruled its field manager on the daily lineup?
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Most of these decisions are made internally and the rationale is never truly discussed in public
The lineups we’ve run out there are atrocious. The front office had this foolish belief in Jose Vidro’s abilities. And the front office has been meddlesome with it’s GM. And yet we believe the front office and GM would not meddle at all with Riggleman’s lineup construction?
We can assume the field manager is an idiot, but against what basis? Does any other field manager handle this team differently? Does the GM and Lincoln/Armstrong let that manager do whatever he wants? Can we definitively prove that either way?
Gomez - September 18, 2008
You sound like Logan
Conspiracies! We were tanking until we conveniently decided not to!
It doesn’t follow.
JI - September 18, 2008
So this is how all of you really feel about my contribution to this blog
This is terrific. Look at what this place has become.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
A home for wild conspiracy theories?
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
How is it wild to say that the GM influences the manager's lineup decisions?
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Pretty wild considering there isn't any proof anywhere
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Of course there's not going to be any proof
These decisions are made behind closed doors. There is no media transparency, and there are a variety of legitimate reasons for that.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
If the front office wanted to tank why do we keep batting Ichiro and Ibanez at the top of the lineup?
Why do we bat them at all?
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
You don't want to make your intentions TOO obvious?
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Batting Jose Vidro cleanup isn't too obvious?
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
They were willing to defend it, however stupid the official defense was
It’s impossible to defend benching or dealing your two best hitters.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Armstrong kept Washburn. Explain, in a tanking context.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Does Washburn help this team win?
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Yes?
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
How much does Washburn help this team win on a day to day basis?
Is he a significant enough piece of the pie that Armstrong’s decision to keep him is directly relevant to maintaining a weak, noncompetitive team for draft-slot purposes?
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Dumping Washburn would have made us a little worse
seems like that’s what a pro-tanking front office would be going for.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Seems like a good move
But whether or not dealing Washburn helps the team tank isn’t the only other factor the team has to consider when deciding to deal him. They also have to rebuild the system and the roster for 2009 and beyond. They had that foolish belief that Washburn was worth more talent than he actually commanded.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
So let's just make this clear
You believe that the Mariners’ front office is deliberately trying to lose as many games as possible. Yes?
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Trying to field a generally non-competitive team for this year in order to do so, sure
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Why release Vidro?
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
So his option wouldn't vest?
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Wasn't going to vest
not physically possible
JI - September 18, 2008
Was never a threat
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Unless we were deliberately misled about when his option kicks in because woooo them boys is crazy!
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
No.
I’m just saying in this instance it’s wildly out of place.
JI - September 18, 2008
The perception towards me has been an ongoing problem
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Wow dude, don't go there.
I appreciate your contributions, and am not a total waste of oxygen so I’m probably not alone with that sentiment. I also get your side of this conversation, and haven’t piped up because my 2 cents is probably not appropriate. That said, I can see plenty of situation where Riggleman could feasibly be directed as to how and when to play players. And plenty of other in-game decisions that he’s fucking up on his own also.
dpseadv - September 18, 2008
Come on JI
that was a bit harsh.
BrianL - September 18, 2008
What benefit could the front office ever derive out of forcing Riggleman to bat Vidro cleanup?
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
I'd say tanking games but you'll turn it back around and ask why
To which I’ll say they were slow to change things once the ship sunk.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
If they wanted to tank why didn't they give Washburn away when they had the chance?
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Chuck Armstrong and Howard Lincoln
Are at the top of the front office. This is self-evident evidence.
PositivePaul - September 18, 2008
Means nothing
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Then why cut Vido?
i think they’re dead set on avoiding 100 losses.
JI - September 18, 2008
They eventually came to their senses there
It took them far too long, obviously.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Nothing you are saying makes sense.
JI - September 18, 2008
I've said it before and I'll say it again
Sometimes you pick some…odd battles.
pdb - September 18, 2008
I'm seriously getting tired of this simple-minded shit
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Now you're just being silly
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
I think you got sidetracked from what started
as a good question:
How do you create an objective benchmark for good coaching? Because it sure feels like everyone (if watched closely enough) could be labeled a retard.
johnbai - September 18, 2008
It was a good question
I wish the trimvirate had more interest in discussing it.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
I was trying and trying to construct a decent question last night.
In regards to a comment I made yesterday regarding the pitching, and pitch selection. Still, it all comes back to the same issue. This team seems to be lacking a cohesive intelligent plan at any level, regarding every aspect of the team.
dpseadv - September 18, 2008
That is a good question actually.
Who IS a good manager? We’ve had 3 managers over the past 2 years and we’ve classified all of them as “bad”. The last two managers had the unfortunate pleasure of running this sorry 2008 team.
ThundaPC - September 18, 2008
Mike Scioscia is a good manager
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Mike Scioscia is an excellent manager
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
So the question is
what makes him so? What is it about Scioscia that makes him a better manager than most?
pdb - September 18, 2008
No glaring flaws save for a slight overreliance on smallball that actually kind of fits the team
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Slight?
JI - September 18, 2008
I don't know how often he H&R's because I only watch the Angels when they play us
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Mike Scioscia constantly puts on the "pussy hit" sign.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
He gets his team
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
I think this is some sort of key
I’ve never heard it put this way before but that makes sense. Torre “got” the late-90’s Yankees, as well, I think.
pdb - September 18, 2008
I guess I can't really prove anything and I don't watch the Angels every day
but I can’t picture them without Scioscia, because he just strikes me as a perfect fit for that ballclub. He understands almost everything about what it can and can’t do.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
I don't watch them a lot either
but that seems to be a correct assumption, and it also seems that most managers don’t get to that level of understanding about their teams.
pdb - September 18, 2008
He has been there a freaking long time
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
This is true.
It’s kind of a circular discussion, as well, because to get that understanding you have to be there a long time, but to be there a long time you almost have to have that understanding.
pdb - September 18, 2008
I will never give Torre the benefit of the doubt after he hit A-Rod 8th
It’s on of the most stupid and classless things I’ve ever seen a manager do.
JI - September 18, 2008
Define the flaws. Define the strengths.
Gomez - September 18, 2008
Sarcasm?
JI - September 18, 2008
Frankly, I think it's tough to say unless you follow a team closely enough.
Because managers make lots of small decisions that reveal their philosophies and that’s where you have to judge them so I’m uncomfortable labeling anyone besides those that I’m familiar with. But as a guiding principles, good managers:
-Understand at some level the concept of win expectancy (related to bunting et al)
-Understand at some level the concept of leverage (related to RP usage et al)
-Understand at some level the importance of on base percentage (related to batting order et al)
-Understand at some level the importance of defense (related to playing time et al)
Matthew - September 18, 2008
LaRussa does pretty much all of this
except the bullpen part. I hate the way he uses his bullpen.
However:
He doesn’t bunt or steal much
He likes to stack his best hitters 1-5 regardless of “traditional” lineup structures
Will rotate his corner OFs around to play to the dimensions of the park
He calls too many hit and runs, but the one’s he calls are almost always with shit hitters/ pitchers, he meddles too much in roster decisions, but I think if he were here in Seattle we’d approve.
JI - September 18, 2008
And I've come around to love the pitcher hitting 8th thing.
JI - September 18, 2008
I support trying new ideas that aren't batshit stupid.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
I'm not quite sure what you mean here but,
If you’re going to hit Ludwick/ Ankiel second to give them more at bats it makes sense to move the pitcher further away from them.
JI - September 18, 2008
I meant it literally. I support TLR's experiments with moving the pitcher to the 8-hole
because it’s not batshit stupid.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
Oh well, yes in that lineup I think it makes sense
With a different group of players maybe not.
JI - September 18, 2008
I'll say
Francona, LaRussa (for all his warts), and Acta has potential
and then after that I couldn’t say because I don’t watch enough of other teams.
JI - September 18, 2008
My heart just sank.
This is just terrible.
Matthew, incredible writing as usual.
royalcurve - September 18, 2008
Is Safeco burning yet? It should be
kentroyals5 - September 18, 2008
No, but the team will be demanding a new stadium any day now
it’s really the only way to get back to being competitive.
pdb - September 18, 2008
My public money is in another county now. Sucker.
dpseadv - September 18, 2008
Well I own part of AIG, bitches
kentroyals5 - September 18, 2008
you're the federal government? Cool.
pdb - September 18, 2008
Taxpayers
kentroyals5 - September 18, 2008
And I suppose this could slowly get out of control..so STC.
kentroyals5 - September 18, 2008
The labeling of Bedard by the media was a slander for him not feeding them interviews.
He’s been brief with the media since he’s been in town, he was that way before he arrived. He opens up (multiple sentences at one sitting) only rarely, and the local media started tearing him a new ass for it right from the start. Early in the season Matt Pittman on the post game report was being especially vindictive in his comments, and it really pissed me off. Bedard had barely unpacked, and the local media is already trying to shape his reputation in the public with a landslide of negative comments.
dpseadv - September 18, 2008
How else should we expect the media to act?
They are a billion dollar industry… they make profits by selling quotes and personalities to gullible suckers (us) willing to pay money and/or suffer through advertising to consume that media. Oddly enough, Bonds is a media dream… people can’t read enough about that dude. But nobody gives a shit about an injured French-speaking mushmouth pitcher. That’s media kryptonite. They have to really work hard at their jobs to sell stories about Bedard. Media loves people like Brent Barry or Brett Boone… endlessly quoteable even when the team loses.
The only revenge the media has is to slam boring, ugly, injured or untalented players. Sports and the media around sports is no different than any idolatry contest. They want heroes, they want drama, they want blood. Refuse to give them anything good and they’ll create readership by slamming you. Otherwise, the boring player threatens their revenue stream.
johnbai - September 18, 2008
There are reporters and then there are columnists.
Personally I feel the distinction between the two is negligible, almost nonexistent. All the talk about Geoff Baker around here, I’ve given him another read and realized I had been skipping his stuff because he’s a columnist. I prefer the reporting, I’ll decide how I should think and feel about the players and the team. Saying that makes me think Baker may be more genius than crazy man. His articles/blog seems to drive readers into a foaming frenzy, I can’t read more than 2-3 responses before I have to avert my eyes. It would be interesting to see how many hits (printed and on-line) he’s generating with his coverage of the M’s. And what you say about boring players I agree with completely, but the type of negative propaganda that surrounds Bedard really turns me off to the point I’ve just about quit reading the sports pages entirely, or listening to the pre/post game when he’s the topic.
dpseadv - September 18, 2008
He's actually a really fantastic reporter, which is why his blog drives so many of us insane.
He’s a good beat writer and he’s done a few fantastic articles over the past few years.
Aaron Campeau - September 19, 2008
Villifying the local media as a whole for this stuff seems unfair
especially considering no one has posted any evidence that they ever called Bedard out for this. I only read Baker and I don’t recall him ever implying Bedard was soft. Maybe Hickey has been worse, or I missed some stuff that Baker said.
Not saying that they haven’t been jerks about this, I just haven’t seen any evidence of it.
ack - September 18, 2008
Sometime's it's the sublte remarks too. Lauding Batista for pitching through pain was a slam on Bedard.
kentroyals5 - September 18, 2008
Who did that?
ack - September 18, 2008
Geoff chimes in.
Somehow manages to turn this against the anti-trade crowd again.
BrianL - September 18, 2008
God dammit Baker, quit being so stupid
His reasoning for questioning Bedard’s pitching is that Bedard is supposed to be an ace and that he was traded for 5 players. Yeah, because Erik Bedard is the one who made that trade happen.
ack - September 18, 2008
Baker's simply bitter that Bedard never spoke to the media.
If this was Carlos Silva, the entire tone of the article would likely be much more apologetic towards the player.
BrianL - September 18, 2008
Let's just stop talking about Baker.
I don’t want this to get personal against him. I used the generic term “local media” for a reason, there were many culprits. They know who they are.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
Matthew touched on this
but it’s funny how Bedard was labeled a girl when he was pitching hurt the whole time and keeping quiet, whereas Batista is just giving his all despite pitching hurt, sucking, and using the injuries as an excuse for the sucking.
It was colossally stupid for Bedard to keep quiet, though. God damn, everybody involved with this sucked.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Lesson learned.
If you’re going to play through pain, make sure to complain about it loudly and often so you get due credit for playing through pain.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
I prefer to celebrate athletes that are good
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Like Sidney Crosby?
Matthew - September 18, 2008
I am not supposed to like Sidney Crosby, right?
Who am I supposed to adore, Jeff?
BrianL - September 18, 2008
The Holy Triumvirate*
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
Who is that crazy guy you recommended again?
And would it be to cliche to root for Heatley?
Robert - September 18, 2008
Anton Volchenkov
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
What is and how much is the NHL equal of mlb.tv
Robert - September 18, 2008
http://www.nhl.com/nhlhq/centerice_online.html
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
The fuck?
Robert - September 18, 2008
It's still set on the Stanley Cup, which was nationally broadcast
Don’t worry about it.
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
You don't like hockey.
Kirsten Schlewitz - September 18, 2008
I caught a game yesterday.
I’m warming up to it.
BrianL - September 18, 2008
I'm still not sure if I like it or not though.
BrianL - September 18, 2008
You'll know when you see a real fast game.
I found myself jumping up and yelling “holy shit how the fuck did he do that” 5 or 6 times in the third game I watched, after two games of being indifferent. That was how I got hooked.
Faux - September 18, 2008
`
Matthew - September 18, 2008
Holy Christ.
Aaron Campeau - September 18, 2008
My favorite part is 14's reaction during the last five frames.
Matthew - September 18, 2008
Holy fuck.
How?
BrianL - September 18, 2008
This is why I like AO more than I like myself and would gladly take a bullet in the nads for him
Jeff Sullivan - September 18, 2008
This I could get behind.
Kirsten Schlewitz - September 18, 2008
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Faux - September 18, 2008
Amazing.
Those guys are incredibly awesome. The game just moves fast for my dumb, slow eyes.
Teej - September 18, 2008
That's my problem too
I can’t really get into it because it’s hard to follow where the puck is and what’s going on.
OlSalty - September 18, 2008
They should make the puck red on TV
Robert - September 18, 2008
Even my dumb eyes did not enjoy that experiment.
Teej - September 19, 2008
Get HD.
It makes all the difference in the world.
Faux - September 19, 2008
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