Carlos Gomez is the return. More later.
[Source]
Later: Hardy is a guy that we'd all been hoping that the Mariners would make a play on this offseason to address the shortstop position, so it's a bit of a shame that he's been taken off the table so early and for what appears to be a fairly low price - one we doubtless could have paid. Gomez is a slightly below average centrefielder for league minimum, and the Brewers had top prospect Alcides Escobar waiting in the wings and a hole in CF with the departure of Mike Cameron, but I have a hard time thinking we couldn't have beaten that price.
In terms of money/talent, the deal makes a good amount of sense for both sides. The Twins get a big upgrade at shortstop, the Brewers deal from depth to cover a weak position (albeit not that well) for free, and have some more money to play with in free agency. As the return for a guy like Hardy, Gomez the talent is rather underwhelming, but the financial flexibility he provides is useful. Could/should the Brewers have gotten more for him? Yes. But they didn't, which is where this deal becomes weird from the Milwaukee side. They had an asset which had less value to them than to the rest of the league, but they sold him for his value to them rather than anyone else's, which is not the best trading strategy in the world.
0 recs | 126 comments
This sucks :(
Now we have to overpay an all-glove, no bat SS
ManifestDestiny - November 6, 2009
It seems teams have jumped early on the trade wagon
Does this mean teams are going to back off the FA market? Maybe the M’s will be able to find some bargains.
Fan since Rupert Jones - November 6, 2009
Truinfel's not likely to end up at short, is he?
.Taylor - November 6, 2009
He's pretty much been relegated to maybe second but likely third.
lailaihei - November 6, 2009
Trusting Z...
…it’s possible Zduriencik didn’t want Hardy for whatever reason.
PositivePaul - November 6, 2009
It's possible that there just wasn't a trade that could be worked out between the teams
It looks like the Brewers were willing to get less talent, but in CF form than they wanted in pitching from us.
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Exactly...
Not that he didn’t WANT Hardy per se, but the whole “not wanting him at ‘x’ price” thing comes into play certainly…
PositivePaul - November 6, 2009
Sure. I didn't really want him at the prices I was hearing.
Now if I had a spare Carlos Gomez and the Brewers were willing to bite, it’s a different story.
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
But it seems like there should have been a middle ground we could reach
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Like here?
.Taylor - November 6, 2009
I'm trying to figure out what that would be (Carrera + Lowe +?)
but what’s done is done, so I guess it doesn’t matter.
Also, just as aside, people talk about Hardy as a former one of the “best young players in baseball” or whatever…. look how far Gomez has fallen. 2.3 WAR player to part-timer to “Well, if Span is ever eaten by wolves…” to trade bait.
And it looks like Gomez was a bit unlucky last year; he might bounce back into the .290-.295 wOBA range, which, now that I look at it, is still deeply shitty.
marc w - November 6, 2009
In terms of talent going back and forth the deal is fine for the Brewers
In terms of what talent they should have been able to get for a guy like Hardy it’s really odd. Seems like they didn’t make the most of their opportunity.
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Agreed.
I still just don’t quite know what sort of a ‘middle ground’ the M’s could’ve managed, assuming Morrow is not ‘middle ground.’ Saunders+?
I guess Milwaukee really doesn’t see Lorenzo Cain as a CF.
marc w - November 6, 2009
If they were hell-bent on getting an elite defensive CF out of the deal for cheap, then there's not much we could do
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Gutierrez + Morrow + x for Hardy and Fielder!
lailaihei - November 6, 2009
Well that would be a vomittastic trade
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Kinda surprising that they didn't hit up the Red Sox for Ellsbury instead though
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
The most frustrating part
Is that it’s CARLOS FREAKING GOMEZ.
weebs - November 6, 2009
Carlos Gomez was the prize prospect in the Johan Santana trade.
When you are given a label in baseball, it tends to linger throughout your career.
Wilder. - November 6, 2009
And when you're only given 157 plate appearances in AAA as a 21-year-old, I imagine it's kind of hard to develop into the stud people think you can be.
Teej - November 6, 2009
Pokey Reese is untouchable!
katal - November 6, 2009
We got him eventually!
Wilder. - November 6, 2009
And then broke him permanently because screw you, Cincinatti Reds!
marc w - November 6, 2009
The what Reds?
Sec 108 - November 6, 2009
This is just setting the stage
For a Brandon Morrow+ for Mat Gamel acquisition and shifting Tui over to short….
right? Please?
ManifestDestiny - November 6, 2009
Our goal is to have a worse defensive shortstop than Yuniesky Betancourt?
seattlebruin - November 6, 2009
Tui to short would be unpleasant
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Gamel at 3B and Tui at SS would pretty much be the worst IF in MLB, and I don't care who's at 2b/1b.
marc w - November 6, 2009
Eh, it's still a 15 WAR infield as long as Lopez is there
seattlebruin - November 6, 2009
Of course, I forgot. You can punt D to an extent when your 2B gets 20-25 WAR per year.
marc w - November 6, 2009
Yup
when he’s a +80 2B and hits 65-85 HR/year and only makes $3M, it’s not too hard to win a lot of ballgames
seattlebruin - November 6, 2009
Unless Jack Zduriencik's brain is kidnapped by a hoard of Korean midgets, Tui will never play shortstop in a M's uniform.
.Taylor - November 6, 2009
Why would Korean midgets want Tui playing at shortstop?
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Profit?
.Taylor - November 6, 2009
They don't. They want GMZ's brain. Sheesh Graham you should be able to follow such things.
Sec 108 - November 6, 2009
Maybe Graham's brain has been kidnapped by Korean midgets
seattlebruin - November 6, 2009
A part of me thinks Tui at SS is the slightly less horrific part of this scenario....
marc w - November 6, 2009
That's on account of Yuni-condiitoning
you’re more accustomed to bad defense at short
Bearskin Rugburn - November 6, 2009
Very good point.
marc w - November 6, 2009
I enjoy how, unlike certain teenage posters, Taylor H has developed from prospect to a pretty amusing poster.
katal - November 6, 2009
I have a back of the rotation ceiling
gregrabble - November 6, 2009
Sorry boss
Dewey N - November 7, 2009
It all good.
katal - November 7, 2009
Well that sucks.
Goose - November 6, 2009
what
Poochie - November 6, 2009
This is a mild disappointment
tootthekazoo - November 6, 2009
Isn't Gomez really good in CF at defense?
Or just good?
Scruffy Lefty - November 6, 2009
He's supposed to be a phenomenal defender
A phenomenal defender who’d be a middle-round pick at SoftbaLL
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
Some captains value defense moreso than others
Poochie - November 6, 2009
Really good, according to UZR.
But he can’t hit for shit.
Teej - November 6, 2009
With Fangraphs not working I am helpless
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
I looked before it crashed.
High UZR marks for Gomez. With the sample size being only a little over a year, Gomez was around +10 at center field, if I’m remembering right.
Teej - November 6, 2009
I just want to look at his hysterical discipline rates
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
They've improved markedly!
marc w - November 6, 2009
I WANT TO SEE THEM
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
What do you need? Fangraphs died while I had Gomez page up. I can't see anything but Carlos!
marc w - November 6, 2009
StatCorner shows that even in a year in which he struggled, Hardy posted a 0.1 hWAR to Gomez's -0.7.
Both players also being great defenders (oh how I wish I could get to FanGraphs for more specific UZR data), it seems like a fair trade once contracts are factored in.
katal - November 6, 2009
Huh.
I sort of had the idea that guys like Gomez were all over the league as fourth outfielders. I mean, does Gomez have anything over Endy Chavez other than two ACLs?
Bearskin Rugburn - November 6, 2009
He's a better defender
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
And is cost controlled.
And is younger
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
That said
I would much rather have Hardy + freely-available 4th OF than Gomez.
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
It's really Gomez and Escobar though
You can’t get around that from the Brewer’s perspective. It’s just that they didn’t leverage Hardy nearly as well as they should have.
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Sort of what I'm driving at
although there could well be something I don’t know about Hardy’s game, ie some kind of nagging wrist injury thats responsible for the BA decline
Bearskin Rugburn - November 6, 2009
I mean, it's what?
A 1 WAR downgrade at short with a 1 WAR upgrade at CF, saving several million dollars in the process? That all balances for Milwaukee.
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Okey
but it’s not about breaking even, right? its about getting the most for your buck.
Bearskin Rugburn - November 6, 2009
Yeah, it's the opportunity cost that they missed the boat on in my eyes
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Yeah they screwed themselves here
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
Okay, given a choice of Gomez or Chavez I might go Gomez given these considerations
but a choice of Chavez plus Hardy v Gomez? I mean, maybe Chavez wasn’t a
Bearskin Rugburn - November 6, 2009
Well Jeff beat me to it
Bearskin Rugburn - November 6, 2009
So, Jack Wilson at SS
with 2 years guaranteed +1 year option at $5-6 million per year?
Jed MC - November 6, 2009
That is my idea.
mark sobba - November 6, 2009
If he's up for it, that's good. More than $6 mil a year and I don't want any part of him though.
lailaihei - November 6, 2009
Like 5.5/6 with a $6.5 mil option and a $1 mil buyout seems decent.
lailaihei - November 6, 2009
Look at the good news
Now we can come up with a new man crush.
OceanBird - November 6, 2009
Two fun comparisons
Mine: Carlos Gomez isn’t a substantially better return for two years of Hardy than we got for two months of Jarrod Washburn
Dave’s: Gomez is basically Tony Gwynn Jr., who Milwaukee traded for Jody Gerut
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
So when's the Jack Wilson extension getting announced anyway?
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Argh
abender20 - November 6, 2009
Jack Wilson is fine calm down
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
I refuse to be happy or sad until I hear about the size
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
I am neither happy or sad but it is not arghworthy
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Pirates don't say "Meh"
abender20 - November 6, 2009
Pirates didn't even want booty for him
they just wanted to Adcock
seattlebruin - November 6, 2009
Please don't try Lorin me into a pun war.
abender20 - November 6, 2009
Yeah. I'll be disappointed if it's market price for a guy who's value is entirely tied up in an ability that is supposed to be undervalued,
and really should be declining given his age. If he’s cheaper, woohoo.
abender20 - November 6, 2009
Whose, you cretin.
abender20 - November 6, 2009
The last time somebody uttered this they were disappointed.
Matthew - November 6, 2009
He is rather small.
Sec 108 - November 6, 2009
That's what she said!
Poochie - November 6, 2009
It is a beautiful thing that Jack Wilson was the backup plan. I love you, Jack Z.
.Taylor - November 6, 2009
You don't know this
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Let me ask Fogel
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
No news on the extension front
And now here’s Jeff with the weather
Dewey N - November 7, 2009
IT'S GON RAIN!
CapSea - November 7, 2009
Jeff is white
Dewey N - November 7, 2009
THERE'S GOING TO BE PRECIPITATION IN ALL LIKELIHOOD
CapSea - November 8, 2009
So maybe we should start calling about Reid Brignac?
I can accept Wilson, but I’d really rather not have to.
BrettJMiller - November 6, 2009
If I were the Rays I'd be trying to trade Bartlett over Brignac
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Wonder how many people are buying Bartlett's crazyass season
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
He was their MVP the season prior too!
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
The Rays are stingy trading partners
Matthew - November 6, 2009
Lots of Jews move to Florida
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
Antisemitism is an instarec
abender20 - November 6, 2009
He's talking about the Braun trade rumours way to take his comment and go completely the wrong way with it
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
Ryan Braun rumors? You must be seeing things.
I guess it’s the narrow eyes.
abender20 - November 6, 2009
Wouldn't those make me see less things?
Graham MacAree - November 6, 2009
So you're saying Robert still has a chance
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
I differentiate between playful antisemitism and skinheads.
abender20 - November 6, 2009
Lots of people think I am a skinhead
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
Because of your hair cut, or because of your habit of saying "Sieg heil" whenever you receive good news?
marc w - November 6, 2009
They think you're Native American?
CapSea - November 8, 2009
No Jeff is really into reggae and being hell of poor.
Aaron Campeau - November 8, 2009
I am too much of a gigantic pussy to be a skinhead.
Robert - November 7, 2009
As long as these suckers on this site still post I have a fighting chance.
Robert - November 7, 2009
They moved the rec button over.
I’ve accidentally flagged about 10 comments in the past three days.
Teej - November 6, 2009
Me too!
Sec 108 - November 6, 2009
Same. xxx
EnglishMariner - November 6, 2009
Florida must be a sexy place
Poochie - November 6, 2009
It's written in the Old Testament.
Ye shall move to Florida when ye attaineth 65 years of age.
.Taylor - November 8, 2009
Well, crap.
Does this mean we pick up Wilson’s option? Or that that was the front offices plan all along considering they didn’t match this offer?
OlSalty - November 6, 2009
Looking at the how-to-succeed-as-an-aggressive-hitter points from the Lopez post
(1) Gomez has a below-average contact rate
(2) Gomez does run well
(3) Gomez does not really put the ball on the ground
(4) Gomez doesn’t have any power
Carlos Gomez is fucked.
Jeff Sullivan - November 6, 2009
What are you talking about?
Of course Gomez has power.
Two Rs and Two Ls - November 6, 2009
I don't think that Gomez is necessarily fucked
He stands a good chance at being a bad hitter, but if you look at what Torii Hunter was doing at the same age, you might have predicted that Hunter would be fucked. Something like .260/.310/.410 isn’t really out of the question (it’s also not out of line with his minor league performance) and isn’t all that different from what J.J. Hardy has done. Obviously more of a risk since Hardy has already shown he can do it, but he is also under team control for longer and takes up less payroll.
I would assume that the Brewers think that if they instruct Gomez to stop bunting so much, when given a chance to swing away 4 times a day, he might actually improve. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gomez has more power than Delmon Young when everything is said and done, though that is a pretty low bar in and of itself.
ubelmann - November 7, 2009
.260/.310/.410 is like 20 runs less than Hardy's best season with the bat
Graham MacAree - November 7, 2009
Getting traded from Minnesota to Milwaukee, and vice versa, is kind of hilarious
Hopefully Gomez and Hardy didn’t have high hopes for going someplace warm.
Manzanillos Cup - November 6, 2009
Yeah, I'm not terribly happy with this deal.
Jack Moore - November 6, 2009
Jack Z
Drafted Hardy, and like me, probably felt that he greatly outperformed what his abilities were offensively in 07 and 08. Add to it that the ankle injury he had in 2005 or 06 (cant remember) greatly reduced his value as a SS. His range is awful, but his glove is solid and he has a plus arm.
My guess is that he didnt want to part with a guy like Morrow, who has a good upside still, for a guy who may not be as bad as he was this year, but will never be as good as he was in 07-08. He probably felt it was a wash to take on Wilson’s 2 WAR vs Hardy’s.
If you think that UZR is something that tells you that Hardy is some sort of elite SS, it also states that Wilson is above average. Hardy’s D #’s are greatly inflated because of defensive positioning, being at the right place at the right time (a lot), not because he has inflated ability.
The M’s would be better off trying to go out and sign Mat Holliday and get WAR that way and sticking with Wilson, or even signing Hideke Matsui as a DH, than having gone after Hardy. There’s a couple of reason’s he is not now a Mariner: Jack Z knows what he was dealing with, and Doug Melvin greatly overestimated Hardy’s worth.
backtocali - November 7, 2009
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