I really think that trade is debatable as a bad trade
Saunders>Balentien and with Wlad out of options, he would have gone through waivers and likely been picked up. Manuel, despite underwhelming skills put up solid numbers. When we tried to remove him from the 40-man, he got picked up.
to get better this year. This trade doesn’t really do that or appear to do much of anything else besides cleanse our farm system of anybody connected to Bavasi.
Past performance should not be used to project true talent
This is a big problem I’m having with career WAR posted on fangraphs. You shouldn’t just project it out. People get lucky and that drastically effects their past performance.
… but if this is his value on the market, why not finally give Morrow a real, sustained chance in the rotation? With all the bungling in his development, I don’t think we ever really got a feel for what he could do. I understand that managing talent is about balancing upside against volatility – and Morrow had lots of both – but trading Morrow for League seems like reducing the volatility at the expense of eliminating much of the upside and potential value.
Is it within the realm of reason that the Morrow trade with Toronto was considered by all parties to be “part of” the deal, and they’ve just finished cleaning up the details?
So it sounds like we traded Morrow for League with Chavez being thrown in for kicks.
Makes me wonder about Morrow’s worth to the organization and to the rest of baseball? If this is all we’re getting we couldn’t just keep Morrow? Unless our org simply didn’t prefer having him around.
Also strange how none of the other trade linked to Morrow never went through.
Lets not freak out Morrow hasn’t exactly been lights out and has yet to develop his off speed which makes him a below average starter. Also this Chavez guy hit 21 HRs last year at the age of 21 so maybe Jack sees some sort of upside in him. I think it is a little funny as well but based on what this GM has done so far I know I should be patient and see how it plays out.
Chavez is arguably a much better return than Cooper
Tallet would of been nice though. I do not think the Jays would be willing to part with him though. The Jays seem to be doing spagetti on the wall, with their projected starting rotation in 2010 having so many variables.
I thought his XFIP was better than it actually was, does not really offer anything more than league. Probably less when you consider positional scarcity.
I could see him being better now but he’s also more expensive and the difference can’t be that small. Morrow in relief always felt like a waste of resources but he was pretty damn awesome at times.
I wonder if he has a bad year, we can snap him up at a low value like Varvarro and try him up as a starter until his control fails. His arsenal would still be good in relief.
and ended up being picked in the 12th round I think. I like the idea of those picks, even if in practice they didn’t work out all that often, but would prefer that Paxton didn’t have TJ before we signed him.
He is apparently in some sort of kerfuffle with his school because he has an agent or something, so he could slip based on that, depending on if he pitches and whatnot.
Paxton’s control collapsing could see him have a less than good season though, though it would not affect his bonus demands as much as TJ surgery. If he could be had after the 5th round, I would love that based on the pure stuff he has.
Before the recent trades, middle of the pack with some helium.
Now, maybe around the top of the bottom third.
It depends on how much you think of the arms we acquired over the summer via Betancourt and Washburn. We came into the season, mid-pack, we might have worked our way up to just below ten, and then these recent ones sent us back down to mid again.
Much has been made of this being the thing that got Triunfel to focus on his work. Drayer had a great story a while back about how, because of the weight gain, they made him sign a contract that he wouldn’t leave until he was under 200, and he ended up at 196 and paid for about half his meals while he was at it. Other stories have corroborated with this, pointing out that he had been a pretty poor student as English went up until now and he’s recently devoted more energy to it and gotten a lot better.
It’s not a lot to go on, but he’s in the top five for me, though he’ll have to show more power to stay there. The lack of position is the most problematic thing when you take that into consideration.
they fucked up their last draft big time by not signing their supplemental rounder through third round pick and their international presence is not exactly remarkable.
Not everyone they draft is white, but they don't have many other avenues.
They closed their VSL facility in favor of opening another one in the Dominican, which they closed later. They have a little going on with that team now, but nothing that really knocks one’s socks off.
Just saw the video on YouTube of Chavez. That is one big 20 year old. Glass half full here but David Ortiz was once a Vlad B and Yohermyn C clone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MimrNpffewM
try to avoid getting too worked up until we hear more and/or from another source.
And last night — before the “chavez” rumor broke — the previous thread was already over 800.
Anyway, couldn’t we just view this in a different light? The Cliff Lee deal was a true three-team trade involving four M’s four prospects — three to Philly for Lee, and one to Toronto — and Seattle got back Lee + League + a Toronto prospect?
Well like Graham pointed out you can see it that way and feel better about life and the Mariners
but it wasn’t a three team deal and Morrow is entirely separate from Lee and Halladay. LIke everyone’s been saying, the return for him is an indication of how low his stock has fallen, much like Clement before him. Bavasi’s drafts haven’t done us well the last few years.
So it seems like Z's target was League, with Chavez as an interesting prospect
Seems like he might be used as a setup man or future closer. Maybe part of a bigger plan to shift Aardsma or Lowe to another team for a position player?
Either way, Drayer and others think they will be trading or signing a new starter, so maybe this doesn’t mean Fister, Vargas, or Olson making it into the rotation.
Bob Fontaine’s drafts with the Mariners brought us…
2004: Matt Tuiasosopo, Rob Johnson, Mark Lowe & Michael Saunders
2005: Jeff Clement & Justin Thomas
2006: Brandon Morrow, Chris Tillman, Tony Butler, Nathan Adcock, Adam Moore & Kam Mickolio
2007: Phillippe Aumont
2008: Dennis Raben, Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin, Luke Burnett
As I see it the team needs to add 3 of the following four: solid #3 type starter, a 1B, a catcher and a reliever. I expected Morrow to bring back either a pitcher or a 1B/C, since the reliever was easy enough to do without giving up anything.
With Morrow gone we have little left to trade and don’t have the money to sign a 1B and a pitcher. But whatever, I guess the people running the team have an idea of what they’re doing.
“Brian Jeroloman reportedly discussed by Mariners as possible return in deal”
When the words possibly and reportedly are in there sounds like more speculation
Morrow’s value as a league average starter is about $32m. Subtract arbitration awards for three years, and you’re probably looking at a net of ~$20m.
League is under team control for one year less and as a reliever is perhaps worth $12m at the high end. He’s also arbitration eligible and that’s likely to reduce his net to something like $7m. Chavez is like a $3m asset, so combined they’re worth about $10m.
Which means we’re getting fleeced to the tune of $10m, roughly, if this goes down.
Not saying Jack Z’s evaluation is right or wrong. But if the trade is this lopsided on paper, then maybe he believes that Morrow’s upside is worth more in trade versus its value to the team measured against his risk. Other teams know that risk level too, and this could be the best deal out there. Z is going for it this year and doesn’t have time to wait and see if his projected mid-rotation starter is healthy or even a starter at all. The guy is an underperforming, injury-prone high draft pick with diabetes. Time to cut bait.
Which isn’t too far off. If he can make the transition to being a starter I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to assume he’ll be about league average.
Like I mentioned above, this all depends on how likely you think that is. But if that’s what he turns out to be, and I don’t think it’s crazy to see that happening, then we’re getting burned bad.
But when we were talking about moving Morrow before today I think most of us were thinking about him as an asset with risk, but with a reasonable chance to turn into a league average starter. Today may have adjusted our thinking, but that’s certainly where I was. I figured:
30% chance he blows out and turns into a reliever or his career goes bust
50% chance he turns into a league average starter
20% chance he turns into a better than league average starter
I think the fan projections show that I wasn’t alone in that.
Ok, I'm willing to admit that I was being optimistic
What do you think his chances were? I guest what I’m asking is what do you think he was worth going into today and do you think that a $10m return is about right?
The way this season is shaping up, Morrow learning how to pitch at the ML level is not something I care to see.
Man alive his development was screwed up from day one. What the hell were they thinking bringing him up in ’08 anyway, that season was dead on arrival.
I doubt he throws 135 innings as a starting pitcher. His best season was .6 WAR and I’ve seen nothing that makes me believe that he is going to improve on that.
but I got criticized for saying that even before the lesser prospect was announced. Morrow is more valuable than League + prospect. You can’t win them all I guess
by saying that you lost this trade before everyone here realized it?
By saying “are you serious” to the ABSOLUTE AUDACITY of some on this board that Snider, Wallace or Stewart just had to be part of the trade because Z is so much smarter than everyone else.
I know it sucks to lose Morrow, but if Z believes League will help the team more in 2010 until Morrow figures his shit out than that is what matters.
The Mariners are set up to go for it all in 2010. You do realize that you have a pretty good shot to win the WS. There really is no question you will win the West. Once Harden gets hurt Texas is finished, Oakland sucks and LA lost their ace and a great player in Figgins Matsui can’t help LA if they don’t make the postseason
But I have a much more acute awareness of what goes on with the Mariners and the AL West than you do. I also am pretty good at this thing called ‘analysis’ too. Why you thought you’d talk down to an author of the blog you’re posting on is frankly beyond me.
I just don't know why you single out Goose here. Seems like a lot of regulars on here respond to things with one-worded statements that don't add to the conversation.
I still contend that Overbay is part of this deal. They need to get rid of him. I do not care what they are saying about Vlad episode II. With their new 1 bagger from the A’s Wallace, and looking at 2013 for contention Overbay makes no sense.
I think League is definitely a safer bet in the bullpen than Morrow and Jack may have a safer bet lined up for the rotation. If the M’s are making a run in 2010 then Brandon Morrow just seems like too much of a risk.
I think it’s just that I’m used to seeing older summer league type players getting picked up in the minor league rule 5 despite not playing in full season ball year. Miguel Marquez was one of them who got nabbed from us recently.
“- were signed at age 18 or younger and have been in the organization for five years.”
Of course when I referred to BA and it’s saying: “Players who were 18 or younger on June 5 preceding the signing of their first contract must be protected after four minor league seasons.”
But don’t both Morrow and League both project to be 1 WAR next year? and any extra future value Morrow might have is made up for in the extra prospect?
He became a different pitcher last year and it’s possible Zduriencik thinks that he could transition to the rotation. I’m aware he’s never started a game before, but his value could be much higher as a sinker change up pitcher who dominates righties.
he may be able to start but the Mariners likely won’t waste the money to try to find out. He’ll be paid too much to work on his stuff in AA and he walks in three years.
but basically if he were any good as a starter he’d be doing it. Stories like Ryan Dempster’s are very very rare. League may be a capable starter, but my guess is we’ll never know.
I’m just saying that League became a completely different pitcher last year and there is a possibility that Zduriencik thinks that pitcher can start. He went from throwing 83% fastballs to 65% fastballs (sinkers) and his primary off speed pitch went from a slider that he used 12% of the time to a change or splitter that he used 33% of the time. I understand that 70 IP is a small sample size, but sometimes in order to get the right player you have to jump first.
he was a starter in the Jays system for his early career. He did okay in his age 18/19 seasons and got as far as A+ ball where he suddenly couldn’t get the K’s any more. He got bumped to the pen in AA at 21 and pretty much stuck there since.
Not sure about that? We are not talking about Mike Carp. We are talking about our 1st round draft pick that at one time was going to be an amazing 1-2 punch. Basically the equivalent to Felix and Lee. We had to go out and get Lee because Marrow cratered into what he is today. An afterthought not even worthy of his own link on ESPN.
To be fair, Cliff Lee was never considered to be in the same sentence as New Cliff Lee.
Some guys just figure it out and go nuts. But I agree, Morrow’s ceiling always seemed to be as an above-average starter. Maybe a 2, if we want to give it a number.
Booo
bluemax - December 22, 2009
I wish it was Morrow for League + Overbay + Chavez.
I’d be down with that.
redwolf75 - December 22, 2009
I Can't Help But Think There Is More In Play Here...
Otherwise, Jack has some ’splaining to do.
Doug Taylor - December 22, 2009
It makes sense if we were trading Halman as part of a larger deal
but we’d be selling low in his case, and the org seems to have gone out of their way to help him out after his troubles this past season.
So basically, it doesn’t make sense.
JY - December 22, 2009
I can't help but think Morrow's value was limited and Jack wanted the headcase gone.
Wilder. - December 22, 2009
Maybe this was part of the agreement with Lee/Halladay.
Perhaps Toronto forced the Phillies to trade with us, so that they’d get Morrow in this ridiculousness.
CapSea - December 22, 2009
Chavez video:
Looks like we re-acquired Wlad.
Blah.
Benne - December 22, 2009
Yay!
marc w - December 22, 2009
Wlad! isn't Wlad! without the name.
Robert - December 22, 2009
True.
marc w - December 22, 2009
Also he needs the stupid lighttower power as well.
Robert - December 22, 2009
So basically we traded for Wlad! just without any of the stuff that made him interesting.
Robert - December 22, 2009
I KNOW, RIGHT?
marc w - December 22, 2009
If League wasn
Robert - December 22, 2009
So true
Sec 108 - December 22, 2009
't exactly the type of pitcher that I love and I didn't hate Brandon Morrow this trade would anger me.
Robert - December 22, 2009
Jomerhyn! is too many syllables.
JY - December 22, 2009
Maybe so, but in Spanish those syllables are pronounced "HOMERING".
Kid was apparently born to play baseball AND hit dingers.
jnbt02 - December 22, 2009
Awesome, if true.
JY - December 22, 2009
Except I think he walks some and has less power.
Scruffy Lefty - December 22, 2009
The power seems to be about the same.
ISO of ~.200 in the MWL is nothing to sneeze at.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Oddly enough Wlad was part of Z's other bad trade.
SethGrandpa - December 22, 2009
He also has at least one bad DFA.
I refer, of course, to Potatoes.
JY - December 22, 2009
Bavasi DFA'd Potatoes at the beginning of 08 if I'm not mistaken
Corco - December 22, 2009
You're mistaken.
Jack was hired in October and Potatoes was DFA’d and picked up on waivers by the Braves on Nov. 20th. It was one of his first moves.
JY - December 22, 2009
Potatoes was simply sent down in April and never made it back up under Bavasi.
BrianL - December 22, 2009
I missed that... what player was nicknamed Potatoes?!?
Tyler Jorgensen - December 22, 2009
Eric O'Flaherty
.Taylor - December 22, 2009
it's wacky because he's Irish and they grow potatoes there
(would also work for Harmon Killebrew, because he’s from Idaho)
pdb - December 22, 2009
Ahh...
I don’t even remember him!
Tyler Jorgensen - December 22, 2009
Don't sweat it. pdb just got his AARP card the other day. Or did you mean O'Flaherty?
Sec 108 - December 23, 2009
huh...wow
Corco - December 22, 2009
No, He was claimed November 20, 2008, about a month into Z's tenure
edddgar - December 22, 2009
I really think that trade is debatable as a bad trade
Saunders>Balentien and with Wlad out of options, he would have gone through waivers and likely been picked up. Manuel, despite underwhelming skills put up solid numbers. When we tried to remove him from the 40-man, he got picked up.
edddgar - December 22, 2009
Eh...I still find it hard to believe we couldn't have gotten anything better.
Probably just my M’s bias…but still.
SethGrandpa - December 22, 2009
This is odd
Chavez seems like such a departure from the type of player Jack has valued. Real puzzling…
gumbostu - December 22, 2009
When did you see Wlad take 4 pitches in an at bat and double?
His body is like Wlad, but thats about it
MattPD - December 22, 2009
Dang, meant to reply to Benne's comment
MattPD - December 22, 2009
He has the body of Wlad, and the plate discipline of Halman.
Seriously, his BB/K numbers are putrid:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=paN06508&position=OF
Benne - December 22, 2009
So I assumed we were going to use Morrow
to get better this year. This trade doesn’t really do that or appear to do much of anything else besides cleanse our farm system of anybody connected to Bavasi.
Edgar for Pres - December 22, 2009
Meh, League is a 1.5-ish win reliever which is a 1.5 win upgrade over whoever he's replacing in the bullpen.
I can live with the deal, although I don’t exactly know why we were shopping Morrow so much.
lailaihei - December 22, 2009
I doubt he can get to 1.5 wins
I’ll be satisfied if he gets to 0.5
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
League is certainly not a 1.5 WAR reliever
How did you even come up with that number?
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
2.1 WAR over his last 106 expected innings.
Adjust for leverage (assume he’s set-up) and there you have 1.5 wins.
lailaihei - December 22, 2009
Past performance should not be used to project true talent
This is a big problem I’m having with career WAR posted on fangraphs. You shouldn’t just project it out. People get lucky and that drastically effects their past performance.
Edgar for Pres - December 22, 2009
That's what trA and trA* are for, which is what I used for the calculation.
lailaihei - December 22, 2009
I was just surprised because 1.5 WAR is pretty much a top 20 relief pitcher
and those pitchers are almost all closers who use leverage to get that high of value.
Edgar for Pres - December 22, 2009
I dunno. League's had a lot of ok seasons and like two amazing ones
He’s a weird guy to project, but I don’t think he should be anything close to 1.5 WAR
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
Yeah I'm fine with 0.5-1 WAR
Projecting a RP above 1 WAR seems destine for disappointment.
Edgar for Pres - December 22, 2009
I look forward to the LL ban on...
…mentioning the name of Cy Young Brandon Morrow and how he could have been ours.
Attractive Nuisance - December 22, 2009
If I were di-a-betting man.
I would disagree.
Fin - December 22, 2009
That's very insulin-tating.
kentroyals5 - December 22, 2009
Why do you have to be a betting man
to disagree?
Attractive Nuisance - December 22, 2009
I'm still waiting until it's official to say whether I like it or not.
Coach Owens - December 22, 2009
I fucking hate Brandon Morrow.
So whatever.
Scruffy Lefty - December 22, 2009
Yep
Robert - December 22, 2009
Well said, Scrufff.
Tyler Jorgensen - December 22, 2009
Same here
That said, I’d still like to get something worthwhile out of him
tootthekazoo - December 22, 2009
How serious is this?
Seems like this is the third or fourth prospect someone has heard the M’s are getting. Why are we more certain about this one?
Nate Dogg - December 22, 2009
Because this one comes from an actual source, apparently.
The Blue Jays’ beat writer on MLB.com. Of course I wouldn’t necessarily trust any “sources” of Jim Street so we’ll see….
Coach Owens - December 22, 2009
I second this emotion
Not…ready…to…give in…
tait644 - December 22, 2009
This deal stinks. Im trying to find ways to twist it so that it makes sense and I really cannot.
Rudy4three - December 22, 2009
Just to follow-up. I can't fathom why Jack would make this move. Usually bad deals like this
are done when you are desperate to fill a weakness on your team. Bullpen isn’t a weakness.
Rudy4three - December 22, 2009
It actually is.
But not a dire one.
Mariner John - December 22, 2009
This isn't exactly fresh insight ...
… but if this is his value on the market, why not finally give Morrow a real, sustained chance in the rotation? With all the bungling in his development, I don’t think we ever really got a feel for what he could do. I understand that managing talent is about balancing upside against volatility – and Morrow had lots of both – but trading Morrow for League seems like reducing the volatility at the expense of eliminating much of the upside and potential value.
Chris Hafner - December 22, 2009
Because he is a whiny bitch.
Scruffy Lefty - December 22, 2009
In which case I'd rather find innovative ways to torment him in the clubhouse ....
Seems like that would be much more satisfying than exchanging him for a mediocre trade return.
Chris Hafner - December 22, 2009
I would have advocated depriving him of his insulin which would have made him trade value plummet
Robert - December 22, 2009
We may be able to reduce the standing ovation to 10 minutes instead of 15 for the USSM get-together.
kentroyals5 - December 22, 2009
The funny thing is if you include it in the Cliff Lee deal it's still oh my god amazing
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
Is that what this is?
Is it within the realm of reason that the Morrow trade with Toronto was considered by all parties to be “part of” the deal, and they’ve just finished cleaning up the details?
robbbbbb - December 22, 2009
Yup.
It really speaks to how far the M’s have come if we’re upset about this.
Doug Taylor - December 22, 2009
True!
Maybe thats what this really is? Seems pretty strangle though.
ARock - December 22, 2009
It's not, just another way of looking at it
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
It isn't though
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Of course that writer just says he's "hearing" that it's Chavez.
Not exactly reliable.
Coach Owens - December 22, 2009
So it sounds like we traded Morrow for League with Chavez being thrown in for kicks.
Makes me wonder about Morrow’s worth to the organization and to the rest of baseball? If this is all we’re getting we couldn’t just keep Morrow? Unless our org simply didn’t prefer having him around.
Also strange how none of the other trade linked to Morrow never went through.
ThundaPC - December 22, 2009 via mobile
Booooooooooo!
This Sucks!! Is Morrow’s value that low? If so, why not just hang on to him and hope he shows some improvement.
rrenner07 - December 22, 2009
So, assuming this trade happens and we do look for another starter?
Has the market changed with the Jason Marquis signing? He’s not exactly good and just signed for $7.5M a year. If so, I’d rather we keep Morrow.
Coach Owens - December 22, 2009
Marquis is a 2-3 win pitcher probably.
Maybe better in RFK stadium, so his salary is ok. Its still a buyer’s market.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Marquis is not a 2-3 win pitcher.
He’s a 1-2 win pitcher
Matthew - December 22, 2009
So if you figure him for 1.5 wins
And figure a win costs $4.5m, it’s only a slight overpay. Plus the Nationals are dumb.
arbeck77 - December 22, 2009
The Nationals really shouldn't be paying market rate for wins.
Then again, they’re so bad that it doesn’t matter.
Matthew - December 22, 2009
How does this affect the 40 man?
Robert - December 22, 2009
Well this is gay
gregrabble - December 22, 2009
Hold on guys.
Lets not freak out Morrow hasn’t exactly been lights out and has yet to develop his off speed which makes him a below average starter. Also this Chavez guy hit 21 HRs last year at the age of 21 so maybe Jack sees some sort of upside in him. I think it is a little funny as well but based on what this GM has done so far I know I should be patient and see how it plays out.
brinkislikevickheabusesdawgs - December 22, 2009
This is really the best deal out there for Morrow?
Guess we over-valued him. Not even a David Cooper or Tallet. Don’t like this deal one bit.
russak - December 22, 2009
If this is really the best deal out there for Morrow
I would have preferred not to make a deal.
mebpenguin - December 22, 2009
Me too
ARock - December 22, 2009
Chavez is arguably a much better return than Cooper
Tallet would of been nice though. I do not think the Jays would be willing to part with him though. The Jays seem to be doing spagetti on the wall, with their projected starting rotation in 2010 having so many variables.
Not a great trade on our part though.
tdot mariner fan - December 22, 2009
Nevermind on Tallet
I thought his XFIP was better than it actually was, does not really offer anything more than league. Probably less when you consider positional scarcity.
tdot mariner fan - December 22, 2009
What is this going to do to the Zduriencik appreciation banner?
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Nothing.
gregrabble - December 22, 2009
Is League much better of a RP than Morrow?
I could see him being better now but he’s also more expensive and the difference can’t be that small. Morrow in relief always felt like a waste of resources but he was pretty damn awesome at times.
Edgar for Pres - December 22, 2009
He seems more dependable
if such a thing could be said of relievers. At least he knows what his job is.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
We couldn't even pull a top 10 prospect away from them. Good grief.
And their system is pretty bad.
russak - December 22, 2009
Their farm system isn't bad.
Teej - December 22, 2009
It was in the bottom 10 easily before the Halladay trade
Made worse by them lowballing excellent draft selections this year.
tdot mariner fan - December 22, 2009
Not getting Paxton, Eliopolous, or Barrett screwed them.
Of course, I wanted Paxton, so if he’s still around when we pick…
JY - December 22, 2009
Paxton for 2010
I wonder if he has a bad year, we can snap him up at a low value like Varvarro and try him up as a starter until his control fails. His arsenal would still be good in relief.
tdot mariner fan - December 22, 2009
Varvaro had TJ surgery
and ended up being picked in the 12th round I think. I like the idea of those picks, even if in practice they didn’t work out all that often, but would prefer that Paxton didn’t have TJ before we signed him.
He is apparently in some sort of kerfuffle with his school because he has an agent or something, so he could slip based on that, depending on if he pitches and whatnot.
JY - December 22, 2009
Yeah I knew about th TJ surgery
Paxton’s control collapsing could see him have a less than good season though, though it would not affect his bonus demands as much as TJ surgery. If he could be had after the 5th round, I would love that based on the pure stuff he has.
tdot mariner fan - December 22, 2009
Their system is awful
Matthew - December 22, 2009
I thought they were top-15 even before the Halladay trade.
At least based on the THT list I saw in April. Definitely not deep, though.
Teej - December 22, 2009
They are bottom 5 even after the Halladay trade
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
Out of curiosity, where are we?
.Taylor - December 22, 2009
Before the recent trades, middle of the pack with some helium.
Now, maybe around the top of the bottom third.
It depends on how much you think of the arms we acquired over the summer via Betancourt and Washburn. We came into the season, mid-pack, we might have worked our way up to just below ten, and then these recent ones sent us back down to mid again.
JY - December 22, 2009
Triunfel's stock seems ot have tumbled quickly
he was supposed to be the jewel more or less. How much of the low rank has to do with his injury, weight gain, and lack of positoin?
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
It depends.
Much has been made of this being the thing that got Triunfel to focus on his work. Drayer had a great story a while back about how, because of the weight gain, they made him sign a contract that he wouldn’t leave until he was under 200, and he ended up at 196 and paid for about half his meals while he was at it. Other stories have corroborated with this, pointing out that he had been a pretty poor student as English went up until now and he’s recently devoted more energy to it and gotten a lot better.
It’s not a lot to go on, but he’s in the top five for me, though he’ll have to show more power to stay there. The lack of position is the most problematic thing when you take that into consideration.
JY - December 22, 2009
Huh.
Brett Wallace and Travis Snider seem better than what a lot of teams have lying around. Is it that they have nothing in the low minors?
Teej - December 22, 2009
As noted...
they fucked up their last draft big time by not signing their supplemental rounder through third round pick and their international presence is not exactly remarkable.
JY - December 22, 2009
White Jays!
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Not everyone they draft is white, but they don't have many other avenues.
They closed their VSL facility in favor of opening another one in the Dominican, which they closed later. They have a little going on with that team now, but nothing that really knocks one’s socks off.
JY - December 22, 2009
I'm sure they have a great international presence
I mean, they must get their hands on plenty of players from the United States, right?
tootthekazoo - December 22, 2009
Zing.
JY - December 22, 2009
It's funny because they're in a different country than we are
tootthekazoo - December 22, 2009
If you have to 'splain it,
it’s not funny.
Paul AB - December 22, 2009
Actually, in this case, overexplaining it makes it vastly funnier
Chris Hafner - December 22, 2009
The joke was dumb enough to begin with.
JY - December 22, 2009
Snider's not a prospect anymore
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
They also saw a great deal of upper minors pitching graduate last year
such as Romero, Rzepczynski, and Cecil. Also, Snider lost eligbility.
Others, such as Mills, Arencibia, Jackson, Cooper, and their plethora of low minors prep players had terrible seasons.
tdot mariner fan - December 22, 2009
I AM CANCELLING THE PARADE RIGHT NOW
.Taylor - December 22, 2009
Big dude
Just saw the video on YouTube of Chavez. That is one big 20 year old. Glass half full here but David Ortiz was once a Vlad B and Yohermyn C clone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MimrNpffewM
Fat Ichiro - December 22, 2009
Not really
Ortiz was better at getting on base than Wlad when he was in the minors.
bluemax - December 22, 2009
OBS
Guess you are right
Vlad minors 273 .345 .526
Ortiz . 310 .383 .533
Chavez . 261 .331 .416
Fat Ichiro - December 22, 2009
Can you use the reply button in the future
It’s really difficult to keep up with the conversation without it
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
Amused
And last night — before the “chavez” rumor broke — the previous thread was already over 800.
Anyway, couldn’t we just view this in a different light? The Cliff Lee deal was a true three-team trade involving four M’s four prospects — three to Philly for Lee, and one to Toronto — and Seattle got back Lee + League + a Toronto prospect?
wandergeist - December 22, 2009
Well like Graham pointed out you can see it that way and feel better about life and the Mariners
but it wasn’t a three team deal and Morrow is entirely separate from Lee and Halladay. LIke everyone’s been saying, the return for him is an indication of how low his stock has fallen, much like Clement before him. Bavasi’s drafts haven’t done us well the last few years.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Yeah, but why look at it that way?
Rudy4three - December 22, 2009
So it seems like Z's target was League, with Chavez as an interesting prospect
Seems like he might be used as a setup man or future closer. Maybe part of a bigger plan to shift Aardsma or Lowe to another team for a position player?
Either way, Drayer and others think they will be trading or signing a new starter, so maybe this doesn’t mean Fister, Vargas, or Olson making it into the rotation.
magistermilitum - December 22, 2009
I'm pretty sure Aardsma has less service time than League so it's hard to see him as the closer of the future unless you're right
and AAA is headed out of town.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Jack's RP fetish continues.
russak - December 22, 2009
Do people feel differently about Bob Fontaine now?
USSM post about Fontaine’s dismissal
CMC_Stags - December 22, 2009
From the link:
Bob Fontaine’s drafts with the Mariners brought us…
2004: Matt Tuiasosopo, Rob Johnson, Mark Lowe & Michael Saunders
2005: Jeff Clement & Justin Thomas
2006: Brandon Morrow, Chris Tillman, Tony Butler, Nathan Adcock, Adam Moore & Kam Mickolio
2007: Phillippe Aumont
2008: Dennis Raben, Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin, Luke Burnett
CMC_Stags - December 22, 2009
Thomas, Saunders, Moore, Burnett, Raben
the only survivors.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
The whole 04 draft class
Brian Floyd - December 22, 2009
Thomas didn't survive.
JY - December 22, 2009
Alas
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
I'm starting to wonder if it's more a development system, and the older guys missed the boat.
Not so much Fontaine, just switching up how they teach these guys.
Kermit. - December 22, 2009
I hate morrow
I hate the trade now. Unless Jesus Jack Z is signing afree agent pitcher, our back rotation consists of snell, rowland smith, and hope
MagicMike23 - December 22, 2009
RRS doesn't suck
abender20 - December 22, 2009
And Snell could be anything from sweet to suck
abender20 - December 22, 2009
Where in my post does it say he sucks?
MagicMike23 - December 22, 2009
You insinuate that he is underwhelming.
redwolf75 - December 22, 2009
It is an underwhelming group
you have to admit. There is upside there, but not much.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
It's not like Morrow changes that much
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
No but the return for him does
As I see it the team needs to add 3 of the following four: solid #3 type starter, a 1B, a catcher and a reliever. I expected Morrow to bring back either a pitcher or a 1B/C, since the reliever was easy enough to do without giving up anything.
With Morrow gone we have little left to trade and don’t have the money to sign a 1B and a pitcher. But whatever, I guess the people running the team have an idea of what they’re doing.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
The rational expectation of Morrow doesn't, but the upside does ...
Even if it’s relatively unlikely that he hits that upside in 2010.
Chris Hafner - December 22, 2009
Don't forget one more year of Fisting madness !!!
tdot mariner fan - December 22, 2009
FISTER!
ARock - December 22, 2009
Now Baker's saying it's...
Jeroloman.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/marinersblog/2010568399_brandon_morrow_deal_catcher_br.html
Dave Clapper - December 22, 2009
That's not what he's saying
“Brandon Morrow deal: catcher Brian Jeroloman reportedly discussed by Mariners as possible return in deal”
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
That article is a couple hours old and he's posted since then that it's Chavez
gregrabble - December 22, 2009
Welcome to four hours ago
And you misquote him
Brian Floyd - December 22, 2009
I think that might suck even worse
mebpenguin - December 22, 2009
Argh.
Got a cached refresh somehow. Sorry about that.
Dave Clapper - December 22, 2009
I'd rather have JP arencibia
“Brian Jeroloman reportedly discussed by Mariners as possible return in deal”
When the words possibly and reportedly are in there sounds like more speculation
MagicMike23 - December 22, 2009
I actually liked Morrow
Dewey N - December 22, 2009
I did too
this makes me sad.
Edgar for Pres - December 22, 2009
This makes me sad as well.
Kirk - December 22, 2009
The fact that you are sad makes me sad.
.Taylor - December 22, 2009
You guys are equal parts harsh and hilarious
I nearly broke a rib laughing last night.
wazzu93 - December 22, 2009
Crap, this looks like a bad trade
Morrow’s value as a league average starter is about $32m. Subtract arbitration awards for three years, and you’re probably looking at a net of ~$20m.
League is under team control for one year less and as a reliever is perhaps worth $12m at the high end. He’s also arbitration eligible and that’s likely to reduce his net to something like $7m. Chavez is like a $3m asset, so combined they’re worth about $10m.
Which means we’re getting fleeced to the tune of $10m, roughly, if this goes down.
mebpenguin - December 22, 2009
With that set of assumptions, sure
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
Of course it all depends on how likely you think it is that Morrow is a league average starter
If you think the chances are 50% then things even out.
mebpenguin - December 22, 2009
Which is a very big "IF"
Not saying Jack Z’s evaluation is right or wrong. But if the trade is this lopsided on paper, then maybe he believes that Morrow’s upside is worth more in trade versus its value to the team measured against his risk. Other teams know that risk level too, and this could be the best deal out there. Z is going for it this year and doesn’t have time to wait and see if his projected mid-rotation starter is healthy or even a starter at all. The guy is an underperforming, injury-prone high draft pick with diabetes. Time to cut bait.
lemonverbena - December 22, 2009
When did Morrow becoma a league average starter?
arbeck77 - December 22, 2009
Fangraphs is projecting him at 1.7 WAR next year
Which isn’t too far off. If he can make the transition to being a starter I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to assume he’ll be about league average.
Like I mentioned above, this all depends on how likely you think that is. But if that’s what he turns out to be, and I don’t think it’s crazy to see that happening, then we’re getting burned bad.
mebpenguin - December 22, 2009
No, Fangraphs is not.
Fans, by which I mean, we, are.
Which is stupid.
Matthew - December 22, 2009
Sorry, you're right, fans are
But when we were talking about moving Morrow before today I think most of us were thinking about him as an asset with risk, but with a reasonable chance to turn into a league average starter. Today may have adjusted our thinking, but that’s certainly where I was. I figured:
30% chance he blows out and turns into a reliever or his career goes bust
50% chance he turns into a league average starter
20% chance he turns into a better than league average starter
I think the fan projections show that I wasn’t alone in that.
mebpenguin - December 22, 2009
That is realllllly optimistic
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
Ok, I'm willing to admit that I was being optimistic
What do you think his chances were? I guest what I’m asking is what do you think he was worth going into today and do you think that a $10m return is about right?
mebpenguin - December 22, 2009
20% bust, 30% good reliever, 25% back end starter, 15% ace closer, 10% mid-top starter
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
And no, I think that the return is low
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
100% chance he needs extra time in spring training to get ready for the season.
Sec 108 - December 22, 2009
The way this season is shaping up, Morrow learning how to pitch at the ML level is not something I care to see.
Man alive his development was screwed up from day one. What the hell were they thinking bringing him up in ’08 anyway, that season was dead on arrival.
Kermit. - December 22, 2009
I'd say:
33% – blows it and career goes bust
33% – becomes a decent/good reliever
33% – becomes a league average starter
ARock - December 22, 2009
I'm skeptical of the fans projection
I doubt he throws 135 innings as a starting pitcher. His best season was .6 WAR and I’ve seen nothing that makes me believe that he is going to improve on that.
arbeck77 - December 22, 2009
yeah that's what I'm saying - you did get burned
but I got criticized for saying that even before the lesser prospect was announced. Morrow is more valuable than League + prospect. You can’t win them all I guess
GobbleforCyoung - December 22, 2009
No, you got criticised for being a dick while saying it
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
by saying that you lost this trade before everyone here realized it?
By saying “are you serious” to the ABSOLUTE AUDACITY of some on this board that Snider, Wallace or Stewart just had to be part of the trade because Z is so much smarter than everyone else.
By saying the truth makes me a dick. Got it
GobbleforCyoung - December 22, 2009
My bad, you just -are- a dick
That little misconception is all cleared up
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
Nice
I know it sucks to lose Morrow, but if Z believes League will help the team more in 2010 until Morrow figures his shit out than that is what matters.
The Mariners are set up to go for it all in 2010. You do realize that you have a pretty good shot to win the WS. There really is no question you will win the West. Once Harden gets hurt Texas is finished, Oakland sucks and LA lost their ace and a great player in Figgins Matsui can’t help LA if they don’t make the postseason
GobbleforCyoung - December 22, 2009
This may be a difficult thing for you to grasp
But I have a much more acute awareness of what goes on with the Mariners and the AL West than you do. I also am pretty good at this thing called ‘analysis’ too. Why you thought you’d talk down to an author of the blog you’re posting on is frankly beyond me.
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
I think you took the Snider/Wallace comments way too seriously.
That’s all. Now lets all just forget it.
Matthew - December 22, 2009
For what it's worth,
here’s Sickels’ list of Jays prospects. Chavez ranks fifth. Maybe we’re not seeing something because of how raw he is?
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Oh my god I am a retard
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Fifth alphabetically?
Brian Floyd - December 22, 2009
At least you're the one who pointed it out first
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
There's hope for me then
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Awesome
ARock - December 22, 2009
Aardsma is the best pitcher of all time!
waldo rojas - December 22, 2009
Hall of Fame!
ARock - December 22, 2009
Sigh
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
What is happening here.
redwolf75 - December 22, 2009
I believe the man has his head in his ass
gregrabble - December 22, 2009
Craniorectal Inversion, technically
lemonverbena - December 22, 2009
Yawn
Goose - December 22, 2009
There are surely more constructive ways of expressing disdain
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
Why not just assume that Jack
has a brilliant plan? (Or maybe he’s just messing with us.)
Bart's Evil Twin - December 22, 2009
Because Mariners fans used up all their optimism last week.
ChristopherA - December 22, 2009
Meh.
kentroyals5 - December 22, 2009
Try again but less annoyingly
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
I just don't know why you single out Goose here. Seems like a lot of regulars on here respond to things with one-worded statements that don't add to the conversation.
kentroyals5 - December 22, 2009
Goose had to be taken down a notch
what with all the good news coming out of AZ recently.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Because nobody else does it so much that I get annoyed by it
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
Wait, you were serious?
I’m not really excited by the return that we received for Brandon Morrow. I thought that “Yawn” pretty much conveyed that sentiment.
Goose - December 22, 2009
I'm interested to hear Z explain why he chose to move Morrow now rather than deal him in a package for Edwin Jackson.
katal - December 22, 2009
My understanding was the Tigers wanted too much
and Jackson will win more in arbitration than he deserves since he’s not as good as his superficial numbers suggested. He does throw hard though.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
And Jack wanted to tick Pedro off.
msb - December 22, 2009
I am sure Pedro is loving this. He didn't have anything to support his blog.
Now he has LL/USSM community to back up his blog with this horrible trade.
mark sobba - December 22, 2009
He was quoted in the Seattle Times the other day. It made me very sad.
Sec 108 - December 23, 2009
Really? Wow.
I guess if you scream loud enough and long enough people will notice.
mark sobba - December 23, 2009
So when Brandon League pitches for us next year...
Do we get to say ‘Diabetes’ in the game threads?
ARock - December 22, 2009
Overbay
I still contend that Overbay is part of this deal. They need to get rid of him. I do not care what they are saying about Vlad episode II. With their new 1 bagger from the A’s Wallace, and looking at 2013 for contention Overbay makes no sense.
Fat Ichiro - December 22, 2009
Vlad 2.0 would be fucking fantastic
but this guy looks like Wlad 2.0 which is less cool. Though At least this kid seems to be a capable fielder which Wlad was always questionable for.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Um, no one is reporting this...
ARock - December 22, 2009
Dear Jack,
This is a very bad trade. However, you are still a good GM.
killer_ewok18 - December 22, 2009 via mobile
Yes.
Though I’d say its a bad trade not very bad. And he is a very good GM not just good!
ARock - December 22, 2009
Oh dear.
d_a_cameron Kick in the pants. @ConorGlassey informs me that Johermyn Chavez was available in the Rule 5 draft. No one took him.
Eyeball Kid - December 22, 2009
This has to be part of something bigger
Dewey N - December 22, 2009
So its basically Morrow for League
It will be interesting to hear the justification for this.
Edgar for Pres - December 22, 2009
Maybe he's in a "Win 2010" mode
Dewey N - December 22, 2009
I guess
But League is barely an upgrade over Morrow in 2010
Edgar for Pres - December 22, 2009
Maybe Jack just got fed up with Morrow.
I think League is definitely a safer bet in the bullpen than Morrow and Jack may have a safer bet lined up for the rotation. If the M’s are making a run in 2010 then Brandon Morrow just seems like too much of a risk.
Eyeball Kid - December 22, 2009
Oof.
BrianL - December 22, 2009
This trade does not pass the smell test.
It really stinks.
killer_ewok18 - December 22, 2009 via mobile
I doubt Jack wanted to keep a 21 year old with a raw power swing on the 25 man all season
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
the Minor League portion of the Rule 5 draft has no such restriction
Corco - December 22, 2009
He was playing too high to qualify for minor league Rule 5, I think.
JY - December 22, 2009
Doubt it
Marshall Hubbard was in AA and he got picked
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
Good point.
I think it’s just that I’m used to seeing older summer league type players getting picked up in the minor league rule 5 despite not playing in full season ball year. Miguel Marquez was one of them who got nabbed from us recently.
JY - December 22, 2009
Well, no one took him because they didn't want him on the 25 man roster.
It’s not like he would break camp with the big club.
Unless he was available in the minor league portion then I retract my statement.
Sec 108 - December 22, 2009
Pleaseee be something bigger
gregrabble - December 22, 2009
I know there are a lot of strange rules involved with the Rule V draft, but if he is 21, how could he be available?
If he was signed when he was 17 and he’s 21 now, he shouldn’t have been eligible.
edddgar - December 22, 2009
Four years?
They may have counted the year he signed too, which was presumably 16 not 17.
JY - December 22, 2009
Wikipedia was wrong on this one
“- were signed at age 18 or younger and have been in the organization for five years.”
Of course when I referred to BA and it’s saying: “Players who were 18 or younger on June 5 preceding the signing of their first contract must be protected after four minor league seasons.”
Also, in Geoff Baker’s article in the Times he’s saying Chavez was signed when he was in fact 17.
edddgar - December 22, 2009
If he was available in the minor league protion
To be available in the minor league portion he must not be on either the AA or AAA reserve list. No service time rules.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
You know, maybe Jack needs to make a bad trade on purpose so other GMs don't feel as though they are getting fleeced by a mastermind.
You have to play stupid sometimes.
Note: I do not actually believe this, but I thought I would throw it out there.
Wilder. - December 22, 2009
Maybe he's doing it because he doesn't want the fans' expectations to be too high.
He knew he just pulled off 2 steals so he decides to botch one so his next 3-4 deals look fabulous even if they’re just good.
SethGrandpa - December 22, 2009
Maybe he doesn't want a banner
Corco - December 22, 2009
Fire the design team!
Wilder. - December 22, 2009
I want my money back.
InSpokane - December 22, 2009
Did you get a receipt?
Wilder. - December 22, 2009
I was kidding.
InSpokane - December 22, 2009
Me too.
;)
Wilder. - December 22, 2009
Seems more like Z is just purging our organization of the misery that is anything Bavasi related.
russak - December 22, 2009
So this means a Lopez deal is around the bend?
SethGrandpa - December 22, 2009
I wouldn't be shocked
russak - December 22, 2009
I think he prefers the term cleansing
Edgar for Pres - December 22, 2009
Purging does have a more diabolic tone to it.
russak - December 22, 2009
*diabolical
russak - December 22, 2009
It depends which school you are from
Stalin or the more modern Slobodan Milosevic
Edgar for Pres - December 22, 2009
Feel free to blow a huge hole in my logic here
But don’t both Morrow and League both project to be 1 WAR next year? and any extra future value Morrow might have is made up for in the extra prospect?
Doesn’t that mean we come out even?
IceStormV1 - December 22, 2009
Nope.
We have Morrow under cheap control for longer. Plus, Morrow could be a starter which would add a ton of value to him.
SethGrandpa - December 22, 2009
Assuming the prospect is not great; in line with the guys that have been mentioned.
SethGrandpa - December 22, 2009
The prospect isn't good, League is probably a little less valuable and is more expensive
Graham MacAree - December 22, 2009
As a starter, Morrow's ceiling is significantly higher than League's
Whether he’ll ever reach it is a different issue. Thanks, Bavasi!
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
ugh seth beat me
computer is sooooooooo slow
Marinerfanjake - December 22, 2009
and i apparently didnt hit the reply button either
Marinerfanjake - December 22, 2009
Please capitalize as well
Matthew - December 22, 2009
Could League be a starter?
He became a different pitcher last year and it’s possible Zduriencik thinks that he could transition to the rotation. I’m aware he’s never started a game before, but his value could be much higher as a sinker change up pitcher who dominates righties.
coreyjro - December 22, 2009
I imagine he was acquired to pitch late innings
he may be able to start but the Mariners likely won’t waste the money to try to find out. He’ll be paid too much to work on his stuff in AA and he walks in three years.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Do we know if Shawn Kelley is a potential starter?
Because this would allow League to take over Kelley’s duties while he transitions as a starter.
Wilder. - December 22, 2009
League appears to be quite a bit better than Kelley.
I’d think you’d want the better of the two starting.
coreyjro - December 22, 2009
Don't really see the need for him to work on his stuff.
Just need to stretch him out for the beginning of the season. He’s got two legitimate pitches, which is more than Morrow can say.
coreyjro - December 22, 2009
I'm being lazy here,
but basically if he were any good as a starter he’d be doing it. Stories like Ryan Dempster’s are very very rare. League may be a capable starter, but my guess is we’ll never know.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Understood.
I’m just saying that League became a completely different pitcher last year and there is a possibility that Zduriencik thinks that pitcher can start. He went from throwing 83% fastballs to 65% fastballs (sinkers) and his primary off speed pitch went from a slider that he used 12% of the time to a change or splitter that he used 33% of the time. I understand that 70 IP is a small sample size, but sometimes in order to get the right player you have to jump first.
coreyjro - December 22, 2009
Okey, thank god for B-R
he was a starter in the Jays system for his early career. He did okay in his age 18/19 seasons and got as far as A+ ball where he suddenly couldn’t get the K’s any more. He got bumped to the pen in AA at 21 and pretty much stuck there since.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
I initially read this thread title as
“Morrow trade overreaction flow thread”
Seems appropriate.
senormateo - December 22, 2009
Ditto.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 22, 2009
Not much overreaction, if any.
Just confusion and trying to make sense of the whole thing.
russak - December 22, 2009
Morrow thread
Not sure about that? We are not talking about Mike Carp. We are talking about our 1st round draft pick that at one time was going to be an amazing 1-2 punch. Basically the equivalent to Felix and Lee. We had to go out and get Lee because Marrow cratered into what he is today. An afterthought not even worthy of his own link on ESPN.
Fat Ichiro - December 22, 2009
Woah, hold on a second
Morrow was never considered to be in the same sentence as either Lee or Felix, not even his ceiling.
edddgar - December 22, 2009
To be fair, Cliff Lee was never considered to be in the same sentence as New Cliff Lee.
Some guys just figure it out and go nuts. But I agree, Morrow’s ceiling always seemed to be as an above-average starter. Maybe a 2, if we want to give it a number.
Teej - December 23, 2009
In what universe was Morrow considered Felix' equal, much less Lee?
pdb - December 22, 2009
D'awww not Marc Rzepczynski...
Slurvey - December 22, 2009
I don't get it
Poochie - December 22, 2009 via mobile
The plan is to have two Greg Almans in the outfield, then trade for Alfonso Soriano.
Dingertime.
Teej - December 22, 2009
Hell yeah.
Dewey N - December 22, 2009
Can we get Dickie Betts to DH?
Aaron Campeau - December 22, 2009
So any confirmation that Chavez is the prospect they're sending over?
The only confirmation seems to be that the source is extremely reliable but we can hope right???
Slurvey - December 22, 2009
No confirm until tomorrow probably.
Matthew - December 22, 2009
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