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Lookout Landing

A Brief Summary Of Everything

Note: by the way, the deal's official now.

  • For whatever it's worth, I haven't been away or anything. Matthew's just been on another level, saying everything that needs to be said while being interesting in saying it. This is a co-author blogging groove the likes of which we've never seen and I'm more than happy to ride it out.

  • When I first heard about the Morrow deal, I couldn't make sense of it, and the best explanation to me so far is one I've seen suggested by a few people - this is directly related to the Halladay/Lee exchange, the result of a handshake agreement between the M's and the Jays that Brandon Morrow would be headed to Toronto even though they couldn't work things out during the original window. Dave's got a few paragraphs on it. Basically, this is a trade that doesn't make a lot of sense on its own, given the context and the Mariners' needs, and when you have a trade that doesn't make a lot of sense made by an intelligent front office, you have to assume that you don't have all the information. This is not a falsifiable theory, but it does strike me as the most probable basis. Last week there was a weird three-way-but-not-three-way-deal in which we got Cliff Lee for very little. Now we make a trade with one of those teams where it seems like we're giving up too much. I have to think they're connected. But, hey, maybe not.

    Update: Z says that this deal and the Lee deal were separate. If it's true that these moves aren't related, that we're forced to consider that either the M's did this to prepare for another move or, more likely, Brandon Morrow just isn't seen as being that valuable around the league. Which, in turn, would also tell us a lot about how the M's see Edwin Jackson. But then the M's have been after Jackson for more than a year. Now I'm confused.

  • The Phillies traded Cliff Lee because they couldn't afford both him and Roy Halladay. Now they're allegedly chasing Fernando Rodney. Incredible.

  • I think Matthew has done a good job of explaning why we all may have been overrating Brandon Morrow. His secondary stuff sucks, he's made zero progress as a starter, and he doesn't throw strikes. He is, right now, a decent reliever with solid-starter upside, but the odds that he never develops into something special are remarkably high. With that said, it is also necessary that we avoid the trap of taking Brandon League as some kind of guarantee. League, to date, has had one really good season, a season in which he started throwing a splitter a third of the time. He missed bats, he got groundballs, he got hitters to chase pitches out of the zone - Brandon League, in 2009, was really really good. At the same time, though, he's a reliever. Some good relievers from 2008: Grant Balfour, Brian Fuentes, Brad Lidge, Kerry Wood, Jose Arredondo, Will Ohman, Rafael Perez, Brandon Morrow...relievers are volatile. This isn't anything new or groundbreaking, but sometimes we can lose sight of that fact. Remember how quickly JJ seemed to lose it?

    League is a good bet in 2010. He's young, he has good stuff, and the fact that his newfound success was tied to a change in his repertoire suggests sustainable causality. But nothing is certain, and we shouldn't take him for granted. While his odds of remaining awesome are good, the odds of regression or even disaster are very real, and not to be ignored.

  • I do love Brandon League, though. Unless you believe in the sustainability of warning track fly balls, he's better than David Aardsma. Relievers with good stuff are nothing new for the Mariners. Relievers with good stuff that can avoid walks, however, make me do the Wallace & Gromit hand clap.

  • My personal favorite angle on the Morrow/League deal: this is Jack Zduriencik trying to clear the organization of as many Bavasi players as he can. Yeah, that's sensible. A good GM doesn't make moves for the sake of making moves, and he doesn't make moves just to prove a point. Z didn't inherit the Bavasi Mariners. He inherited the Mariners. As soon as Z rose to power, Bavasi's players became Zduriencik's players, and you only move your players if you think that doing so will help the team get better. If Z thought less of Brandon Morrow simply because he was drafted by the Bavasi regime, that would make Z a retard, and Z isn't a retard, unless he's the most functional and intelligent retard of all time. 

  • An important reminder: Brandon Morrow's career FIP in the bullpen is over 4, and his career FIP in the rotation is over 5. Morrow is all potential. Although he's thrown nearly 200 Major League innings, he is still very much a prospect. I'd argue that he's more of a prospect than a guy like Nick Hill or Doug Fister. While the term "prospect" is used interchangeably with "talented minor leaguer," it shouldn't be.

  • Yohermyn Chavez is interesting, but nothing else. My personal philosophy is that, barring extraordinary tools, you shouldn't pay much attention to a minor leaguer until he's done something in AA, and Chavez hasn't gotten there yet. In time, maybe, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.

  • All offseason long, I was convinced that we'd end up trading Morrow for a regular first baseman. Now I don't know what to think, as the front office remains way ahead of me. Free agent options are still hanging around, but with Michael Saunders suddenly looking like a possible trade chip, I'm not even going to bother speculating on who's the most likely find. 

  • Interesting to see Morrow come clean about how much his treatment in 2008 hurt his development as a starter. Just another reason to root against Carlos Silva as a pitcher and as a person. You do not deserve to be happier than me, Carlos.

  • An important difference between Brandon League's goggles and RRS' goggles is that Brandon League's goggles are more reflective. The additional reflectiveness makes League more intimidating. Also making League more intimidating is the fact that he doesn't have pinpoint command and throws a hundred miles per hour.

1 recs  |  144 comments

Comments

I always liked the idea of a guy throwing fast enough to kill and wearing spectacles.

Kind of like how Randy would occasionally unleash a pitch 8 feet high to the backstop. Just to freak the hitters out.

Troy Percival didn't even wear glasses!
One really cunning gamesmanship ploy.
Randy seems to be a Bull Durham fan.
I also like how he killed a dove, the symbol of peace, with his fastball
He should of picked it up and bit its head off

people would still be afraid to bat against him.

Goggles, lack of command and 100mph fastball?

I think I’ve seen this somewhere before.

This almost makes me hope that he sucks

Just so I can heckle him drunkenly like Randy Quaid does

Apparently, something Randy Quaid is expert at ...
I was like, "Quaid wasn't in Major League." I looked up his IMDB.

Major League 2 never happened. Also, I notice he was in Caddyshack 2 as well.

Nice work Quaid, you got yourself into two of the worst sequels of all time.

Yeah but when Matthew's eventual regression comes don't say I didn't tell you so
Where did this mythical trade value for Morrow come from?
By the way, for those interested, here’s the all-time list of pitchers who accumulated at least 150 innings before age 25 and had a BB/9 of 5.5 or higher at that point in their career. Morrow’s is 5.83 right now, by the way.

61 pitchers on the list. The successes – Nolan Ryan, Johnny Van Der Meer, Lefty Grove, and J.R. Richard if you ignore the fact that his career was over at age 30.

That’s it. There are a bunch of Bobby Witt/Jason Bere/Seth McClung/Daniel Cabrera types, who just never figured it out.

4 out of 60. Do you like those odds?
1/15 are good odds for a lottery ticket
If you're going to quote, please provide a link.
http://ussmariner.com/2009/10/01/morrow-and-hope/

One of Dave’s comments.

FWIW

Richard’s career ended because of a stroke, not because of anything typical to pitchers.

Why would Z not link it to the Lee/Halladay deal if it actually was linked?

And not only not link it, but now deny it? I tend to believe the clearing of everything Bavasi-related theory.

That last sentence came out wrong.

I tend to believe the clearing of those that Jack believes we can improve on…as Jeff points out below, most of them just happen to be linked to the Bavasi era.

Thank you for this:
If Z thought less of Brandon Morrow simply because he was drafted by the Bavasi regime, that would make Z a retard, and Z isn’t a retard, unless he’s the most functional and intelligent retard of all time.
Hopefully,

this is not too close LLchatspeak, but that was one of the funnier things I’ve read in a while. T

Another reason why he would be my hero
This had me choking on my granola
Oh my god HH would have a field day with this screenname comment combo
Good one

I almost spit out my coffee when I read this.

Forgot to mention

Maybe, just maybe, Z is getting rid of a lot of the Bavasi-era Mariners because a lot of the Bavasi-era Mariners suck.

Let me know if you need help coming back from that limb.
I don't think thats true though

Minus the Bedard trade, our farm system and youth would be pretty fucking amazing.

That doesn't sound like a good reason ;)
The theory of this deal being part of the Halladay deal makes sense from a value perspective

but aside from Zduriencik’s denials (which don’t mean that much, they denied being interested in Bradley after all) there is also the issue of physicals. If Morrow was a significant part of the Halladay package, wouldn’t the Jays want a physical from a young pitcher with quite an injury history before they ship off their ace?

I think Jack might be a bit of a TTO GM. He either hits it out of the park or whiffs (or walks, which is… I dunno; not a very apt analogy after all).

Denying something before it happens is different than denying a reason for something that already did.
Nevertheless

he is under no obligation to reveal agreements reached between him and other GMs. He may want to give the impression that this was a separate deal for reasons entirely his own, we will never know for certain.

Too many questions left unanswered.

Why keep this part of the trade secret? (and deny it after it is made official)
Why wait a week after the main piece to do it?
What if either pitcher failed their physical? Halladay already has his extension, everything previous to this can’t be undone.

It’s much more reasonable to believe that Jack Zduriencik isn’t infallible and/or that Morrow’s trade value wasn’t as high as some thought it to be.

"Unless you believe in the sustainability of warning track fly balls, he's better than David Aardsma."

Eddie Guardado made a career of those for a while.

Rec'd for Wallace and Gromit.

I’ve always liked League. Then again, when I only had Gameday to follow games I was impressed by pretty much anyone that threw 100mph.

But don't you think the fact that RRS's glasses aren't reflective a bigger distraction?

Hitters get lost in his big, dreamy Aussie eyes.

This is all very interesting..

As a Jays fan I’m also a little confused by the deal… prior to this deal I saw Morrow as one of those high upside pitchers who you take in the middle rounds of a Fantasy draft and hope for a breakout campaign. Not much has changed… but I know a little more about him now and my optimism is a little more cautious than before.

To be honest I’ve never liked Brandon League… the guy can throw triple-digits but he knows exactly how and when to absolutely implode. This clip (skip ahead to 1:30) sealed this opinion of Brandon in my mind. (I also had $20 riding on the Jays winning 76 games so that stung a little but more than it usually would.)

He can certainly be brilliant from time to time so hopefully he can do that a little more often in the future than he has in the past. In a perfect world, both the M’s and the Jays win this trade and get some solid young arms.

You don't like him because of two throwing errors on pretty good bunts?

That seems very forgivable to me.

Nope.

Those just made me angry at the time based on the situation. I had already formulated the opinion long long ago.

Again, not saying he’s worthless. Just giving an example of how frustrating he can be. I’m sure you have no shortage of similar Morrow footage based on what I’ve been reading here at the landing.

Every reliever not named Mariano Rivera is frustrating, though.

So you just pick the most talented ones and hope for the best. But they’re all going to get torched a few times a year.

League certainly does have talent. If he’s worked on that new splitter and starts to find the strike zone a little more there are going to be some very irate Jays fans.

Mariano even blew game 7 of the 2001 World Series with a bad throw on a bunt attempt.
Hmm

You guys sure right a lot in your subject lines. Must be an east-west cultural difference….

“Write” not “right”…. hoo boy.

It's a rule around here.

You’d be wise to do the same when you’re here.

Oh, my apologies. I'll try to be a little more respectful when visiting foreign lands.

Anybody know where I could get a good cup of coffee?

No idea

I guess I can relate to your feelings on League. Morrow was maddening in a different way. Like walking nearly every batter he faced to open the 09 season. As a closer.

I originally read this as "White is Right"

Which is true.

Bold lettering is easier to read and follow.

And subject lines allow you to easily hide content and makes for easier moderating. Also, it’s really just … just so much better.

Baltimore happens to the best of us,

See this clip for our own implosion.

My favorite angle on the League acquisition:

He has the back of his jersey, “LEAGUE”, “22” tattooed on his back.

Looking at who’s wearing 22 now, I think he’s in for an expensive tattoo removal soon.

Huh?

I don’t get it. Who’s wearing 22? What’s on first?

Wakamatsu
If you actually didn't know.

I caught the reference.

Did he finally do the number?

I knew he had his name up there, but heard he hadn’t wanted to add a number until he stuck with a team

Bad idea for relievers in general
Don't coaches usually give up uniform numbers for free?

And players give them up for a nice watch to a player with seniority.

This trade still kinda annoys me

Stick Morrow in the rotation and he is above replacement. Trading him shifts Fister to the 5th spot probably and kinda fills a hole in the bullpen (I guess). Just looking at how the team is constructed, I don’t see how this makes us better overall. I agree that I was hoping Morrow would bring in a 1B with him. League is cool but at some point you have to just try Morrow in the rotation and see what you get. If he doesn’t work out you don’t get much in return in a trade but if he does work out at all he either helps the team alot or brings back more in a trade.

Now we probably need to get a SP. Hopefully there is something in the works.

I'm betting Vargas in the fifth spot

unless we add someone else . . .

I'd like to at least see some upside

That was the nice thing about Morrow. His downside was a #5 SP but he had enough upside to make things interesting.

Actually, his downside

was (and is) roller-coaster middle reliever.

As a relief pitcher he is striking out 8+ K/9

and his control can be bad but isn’t abysmal. Morrow at no point is a middle relief pitcher.

Morrow hasn't really been a great reliever thus far.

He gets tons of K’s, but still walks too many guys. He had a killer stretch of dominance in ‘08, but that’s been about it as far as showing the ability to be more than an average reliever.

Yeah I might overrate his control

but 2008 was pretty dominant.

Nick Hill!
Quite possibly

I’m guessing, though, that he’ll start off in the rotation in Tacoma, and we’ll go from there.

Jack Z and LL better take a few days off for Christmas.

My brain is fried.

He's going to pull the Pujols and Utley trades on Christmas day

So the fans in St. Louis and Philly won’t find out about them for a few days.

I can't imagine many trades/signings go down between now and New Years

if only because who the hell wants to go to the office during Christmas?

If I recall,

the Beltre signing was somewhere around the 27th of 28th of December.

Actually, no

nevermind, it was the 16th—the day after the Sexson signing. Wow, I was hilariously optimistic about the 2005 season because of those signings.

Man, I remember being in a great mood after those two signings

And then didn’t Richie hit a pair of dingers on opening day? False hope to the max…

My friends and I were home from college

and threw a party in honor of the Beltre signing.

It was not

The day after the Sexson signing and it was mid Decemeber

Yep...beat you to that by a good 8 minutes.
Except that the 27th/28th is not really mid-December
Except his correction was 8 minutes before Robert
...but I corrected myself on that point.

Sexson signed on the 15th, the Beltre signing was announced on the 16th and officially completed on the 17th—which makes sense, because I knew the signing had something to do with a 7. Guess I was just off by ten days.

I read too soon, sorry
Blind leading the blind.

Jim Moore and Kevin Calabro discuss Brandon League.

well that must just be scintillating
Painful, more like.

inadvertent ear pollution.

Good GOD we need an NBA team again.

Just to save Calabro. Why do you make the game’s best play by play man (talking basketball here) into a talk show host? If I was the god of Seattle I would have him doing Huskies, Cougars, Zags, whatever mascot Seattle University has, high school games, etc. every day of the week. That would be his talk show. Doing play by play for basketball games. And I would allow him to say TWO IN THE CAKE ONE IN THE PUDDIN after every three point attempt.

Redhawks.

He does the Sounders.

Kevin Calabro

Is God. You bite your tongue when you speak of him.

He is a terrible talk show host.
If it weren't for Mike Salk

710 would be useless outside of M’s games and Shannon Drayer’s occasional hello.

It could be a lot worse
I would think god would have more hair
And be a little better at understanding how non-basketball sports work.
This post claims to be a brief summary of 'Everything'

when it clearly only relates to the Brandon trade and a few other tidbits. For shame.

Seriously. No mentin of string theory, Snufflupagus, Jane Krakowski or Honda Gas Mileage.

I want my money back.

No post is complete without mention of Snufflupagus though.
Oh shit, he commented below and I didn't even notice.
Too bad he's imaginary so that when big bird ides his comment will go away.
noooooooooooooo

I will live on in the mind of delusional muppets for all of eternity

Mr. Snuffleupagus is no longer invisible to everybody but Big Bird.

This statistic brought to you by Joe Morgan.

I think this deal can make sense from a 'win in 2010' perspective

Doesn’t this deal make us better in 2010? We’re all pretty upset about missing Morrow’s upside, but we just improved our bullpen – a place in need of improvement.

Also, if we sign a free agent pitcher (something I think will happen now), there wasn’t much room in the lineup for Morrow. With a free agent pitcher in for #4 and Snell at #5, where does Morrow go? Morrow could spend the year in Tacoma, but that doesn’t help us in 2010, and it looks like League’s better control might make him a better reliever.

The real shock of the trade seems to be that we couldn’t get something more somewhere else, but it isn’t implausible that that’s true.

At the risk of not regressing League as much as I should, yes, I'd say we're better in 2010.
Time to sign Randy!
Also, I think Z is trying to build a team with the most guys who throw 95+ in the bullpen for the late innings.

Now Lowe, League and Aardsma can all scare batters out of their minds with their wild control and 100 MPH fastballs.

Then why trade Morrow?
I'd rather have League in the bullpen than Morrow.
Well Lowe and League will.

Aardsma is a borderline 96-97 max on his fastball.

He's trying to actually hit the target.
And still sucks at doing that.

4.29BB/9IP

The Reports on Chavez are all over the map.

Dave comped him to Greg Halman. (Chavez hasn’t actually struck out that much, and he’s walked more, but the comp makes sense.)

Over at Fangraphs, Mark Hulet points out that Chavez was second in his league in homers behind a guy who was three years older.

Jay Yencich isn't all that keen on him either

See his report at Mariner Minors.

Ive read a lot of reports on Chavez

and that is by far the most negative one I have read. He was ranked the #1 Prospect in the Blue Jays Org by Matt Hagan at THT, so it seems people are all over the board with this guy.

As already stated by philosofool.

Whoops. Add that to the comment.

Check out Hagan's Mariners list

Here.

Ackley number three, no Moore.

The guy’s not exactly doing a bang-up job of prospect rankings.

He lost credibility when he stated Triunfel can stay at SS

Makes me wonder how much research he did before the rankings

Anyone trying to cover the whole of the minor leagues is bound to have some oversights.

That’s one of the glaring ones.

It’s a trade-off though. People who only focus on one system tend to have perceptions skewed by some level of favoritism, but are bound to pick up on more. National level coverage is more objective, but less deep or informed.

John Sickels' list doesn't have Chavez in the top 20

the general idea is he’s very raw and while the power is good, the other key tools, like zone judgement and bat control, aren’t really there. He may develop and he may not, but it seems his ceiling isn’t terribly high.

Sickels was working on his list while the trade was being worked on.

He didn’t post it until after it went public, so I’m guessing he was aware of the deal and cut Chavez from discussion for that reason.

I asked him
So you did!

I don’t know if I see him breaking the M’s top twenty either, but we may be sufficiently depleted at this point.

Sigh...

I love what’s going on with the 25 man. But for a farm with very little in the way of SP prospects, Jack sure has decimated what little there was.

Eh, it was like that before.

Bavasi taking Tillman and Butler out was what did it for us, and I don’t think anyone anticipated the Morrow issues or that Aumont was going to be a reliever, though you can pin that on him if you like. I can’t fault him for Gaby Hernandez or Marwin Vega failing to develop/sucking, but Fister and Hill were decent gets, and before that, there’s always Feierabend.

So Jack traded Ramirez, who I think was a bit overrated anyway considering he never really got a change-up going and had been pretty much treading water for a couple of years, and Williamson, who was realistically a fringy left-hander. He also lost the Jakubostrich, for which marc will never forgive him, Dickey Time and Jake Woods on outright, Souza for Hannahan which may not be that big of a loss, and Adcock/Pribanic/Lorin for Snell. Jack brought in Cleto (who was bogged down in visa issues), Cortes, who is close enough to Ramirez, [Saito], and Robles along with French, Vargas, and Olson at the major league level.

We lost some depth that wasn’t going to help us in the short term and at the major league level became pretty much set with quad-A arms while adding a few enigmas with potential. We didn’t have much to work with in the first place, but even though we gave up perhaps more than I remember giving, I think it probably breaks close to even, all things considered.

However, I don't know how muh Sickels bases his assessments on proximity to the majors

I didn’t see many players on his lists below AA so this may be partially a reflection of what he values. Moises Sierra, for example, also did not make the top 20 either.

The fact that this trade was a straight up swap for the same position says everything

From the very start, I thought this trade happened because the team valued League more than Morrow. That’s part damning of Morrow and part praise of League.

I don’t remember very well, but when I saw the portrait of League when this first broke a few days ago, I actually recognized him. He shut the Mariners down very impressively in a game I caught last year. His command was “on” that day and he looked like a relief ace. My memory is fuzzy, but I think the M’s got to him for a run the next day, but overall, in that brief glimpse, he was a player I wanted. Statistically, he seems like a better version of Morrow out of the pen. And while it seems disappointing that Morrow didn’t carry more value to some team, this was probably the best offer we got this winter, and at least we got a pitcher who looks very promising back. I had kind of given up on Morrow and it looks like Z had too. In that sense, I’m moderately happy about this deal. Not even counting Chavez, we traded a frustrating pitcher with upside for a less frustrating pitcher with upside who is a more likely bet to be a 1 WAR pitcher in 2010. I’m ok with that.

This is pretty simple folks

and I’m not sure why everyone wants to make it more difficult than it needs to be. Brandon Morrow wasn’t all that great. He could turn into something, but likely he will not. Z saw an opportunity to upgrade the bullpen for ‘10. I’m not disappointed. I don’t think it was bad.

I think that the mishandling of Morrow from the beginning likely ruined any chance he had to turn into a decent starter.

I think most people get that

but the timing is what doesn’t make sense. If Morrow’s value is this terrible around the league (a very similar player and a mediocre prospect), then why not hold on to him? Outside of him blowing an arm out, I don’t know how much lower his worth could dip. Might as well keep the guy that’s cheaper, has starter potential, and is under club control for longer.

As things stand right now, this trade is a headscratcher, and doesn’t have the Jack Z trademark. Because I want to kiss GMZ on the mouth, I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt on this, and assuming something else is coming that will pull back the veil and result in much epiphanizing.

The answers

Are basically right here.

And Zduriencik came about as close to saying that the team didn’t have time to wait for Morrow to blossom as he possibly could without saying it. Pressed repeatedly, Zduriencik finally said:

“He was going to have an opportunity to compete for a starting job, that’s about the best way I could say it,’’ Zduriencik said.

Now, here’s the kicker, which he added seconds later.

“All I can tell you is we had a handful of candidates for, let’s say, the other parts of the rotation, the back end of the rotation,‘’ he said. "And I really didn’t necessarily see this type of arm that could fit into the back end of our bullpen. And that’s why we acquired Brandon League.’’
That pretty clearly sums it up

Morrow was not wanted here so he was traded for a necessary piece.

I don't give two tugs on a dead dog's dick about what you think
There has to be a bettter way to get your point across

than referencing the servicing of a dead animal. You can get thrown in jail for that ya know.

His name screen name is Spider Jerusalem

he’s into that stuff.

I think you are incorrect

I think it is perfectly legal to service a dead dog.

Well it's sort of a grey area apparently

although in this case it is a deer and not man’s best friend.

good to know

Seems like the logic is a little faulty. Assault seems like a strange thing to call it.

The trade is a headscratcher, unless it's just a step to another trade.

Some GMs value a proven closer much higher than they need to. Aardsma/Lowe are now expendable and League can step right in there.

After reflecting I realized Brandon Morrow's closer walk out song Hot n Cold wasn't that far off.
It was pretty much perfect
The only better song owuld have been the hit single

Walk the World by the medical-rap group Tha Diabetiks.

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