Well this kind of came out of nowhere:
The Mariners are the clear frontrunners to sign free-agent third baseman ChoneFiggins , multiple major league sources told FOXSports.com on Thursday night.
Figgins is the team's first choice to succeed Adrian Beltre at third base, the sources said. The team and Figgins' representatives engaged in serious talks Thursday.
I'm not going to completely buy into it yet, as sources have linked the Mariners to pretty much every big name on the market and this could very easily be a big ol' load. But Figgins is an...intriguing name, and an unexpected one, which makes this interesting to think about. With Figgins, the Mariners, of course, would never hit a home run, ever, in any game, but as an honest-to-God switch-hitter who can draw a lot of walks and play a decent third base, he's a fine player. Better than Jason Bay, and though he's not markedly better than Adrian Beltre (if at all), he's a better fit for the park.
I'm not absolutely wild about Figgins, but then I don't know how his market's going to develop, so if the Mariners really are involved in serious discussion, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now. I also implore you not to get too carried away by this. Everything is a rumor until it's not, and this is just a rumor. A fascinating rumor that would drive other teams crazy if it came to fruition, but a rumor nonetheless.
0 recs | 227 comments
The opportunity to drive the Angels crazy
would be almost as good as the opportunity to pick up a 3-4 win player for a few years at a decent value. At 9-10 million per year I’d definitely be interested in Figgins, even if it does cost us our 1st round pick. At 12-15 million I would not be interested. I’m also not concerned about his age, speed types like him tend to age very well.
mebpenguin - December 3, 2009
Apparently, Polanco burst some bubbles
Half of the 3B on the market had Philly circled as the place they were going to get paid. It seems like the M’s may just be seeing if they can take advantage of a reduced price.
I buy this one. He makes a lot of sense for the M’s at the right price.
davidcameron - December 3, 2009
I can't believe Polanco is moving back to third
Poochie - December 3, 2009
What do you consider to be "the right price"?
I’m imagining around ~$9-10M. That way he would be signed for less than his projected WAR/$value, and we’d have enough to sign a veteran catcher and upgrade at SP. Or do you expect a reasonable price for Figgins to be considerably lower or higher?
katal - December 3, 2009
4/40
Or something in that range. He won’t get full value of his +3 win nature because so much of it is based on defense. $10 million a year for 3 or 4 years makes the most sense.
davidcameron - December 3, 2009
I'd be happy with that.
Thanks.
katal - December 3, 2009
Thanks!
ARock - December 3, 2009
That sounds fine
any more and I’d start to balk a bit.
Eyeball Kid - December 3, 2009
By the way, important note:
Please nobody take Figgins’ 2009 defensive numbers seriously. UZR says +16.7 runs. Plus/minus says +31 runs. RZR says +49 plays. Those are crazy. Weight his track record and you’re looking at 0 < x < +10, probably something like +5.
Jeff Sullivan - December 3, 2009
I don't think anyone is expecting him to repeat last year's performance
either defensively or offensively. But he is at 8 UZR over 4500 innings at 3B, which is a pretty good sample size. I expect him to be a 3-4 win player for the next few years, which I believe is reasonable.
mebpenguin - December 3, 2009
But at what cost?
I could manage seeing an $8M annual salary for Chone, but I don’t know how I’d feel if the team went much higher then the speculated 4/30 deal.
cwel87 - December 3, 2009
Well, let's be conservative
Let’s say that Figgins is a 3 win player next year. If we sign him for a 4 year deal, as is being rumored, and factor in a bit of aging he might be worth 9 wins over those three years: 3, 2.5, 2, 1.5.
At that level he’d be worth about $45 million over four years. But we also have to consider the cost of the lost draft pick, which is usually estimated at around $5 million, so subtract that and you get $40 million for 4 years. That’s a fair price.
Frankly I think my estimate is too conservative, players with the speedster skillset of Figgins tend to age better and I think he could be worth more like 12 wins over the next four years. But I wouldn’t go past 4/40 to test that theory out.
mebpenguin - December 3, 2009
The thing with that is we need to optimize our dollars spent this offseason in order to compete
Giving Chone a 4/40 deal does not optimize it. Granted, it’s a discount for his actual worth, but it’s marginal at best.
cwel87 - December 3, 2009
I don't know
worst case scenario we don’t optimize, but like I said I think he could be worth significantly better than that conservative estimate, and if that’s the case we are coming out pretty far ahead. $40 million for a 12 win player is just about $3.33 million per win, which is a decent bargain.
mebpenguin - December 3, 2009
Yeah you're counting on some serious aging/regression in that scenario
which is prudent but kind of a worst case scenario as well (well second worst – worst would be Spiezio 2.0). I mean, you could predict 3.5, 3.5, 2.5, 2.0 and still be on the conservative side. Also, we have yet to see how this season’s market develops. Lots of 2b/3b around, you know?
Bearskin Rugburn - December 3, 2009
To clarify,
its entirely possible Figgins signs for 4/36, or 3/30 plus an option year of some sort.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 3, 2009
We can afford to reach a little on this as long as we make mostly high risk/high reward/low cost moves elsewhere
Keep in mind we’re probably going to be pulling of a trade or two sometime soon to fill holes as well.
OlSalty - December 3, 2009
That's the critical thing, his defense
It’s pretty easy to project every other aspect of his game, but there could be a lot of disagreement on how to evaluate his defense. I think at the worst, you’d have to place him at average for 3B, +0, and at best, something around +12 or 13. Looking at his results from the past 2 years, his career UZR/150 of +8 looks pretty reasonable. Given average values for his offense and baserunning, he comes out at about 4-5 WAR. With aging, yeah, what the penguin said, 3-4 WAR/year over the next 4 years. Using last year’s free agent $, that’s about 15 MM/year. If we can get him for about that or less, it looks like a good move for the M’s.
nathaniel dawson - December 3, 2009
If Figgins can give us somewhere between +5 and +10 defense at 3rd with 90+ walks, then neat. I guess.
Goose - December 3, 2009
If you can't beat evil, turn it good
Jeff Sullivan - December 3, 2009
After playing like the Angels all year, it makes perfect sense that we would go after the prototypical Angel.
It’s kind of funny to me that this might be happening, because it seems like half the people here called this 6 months ago.
Goose - December 3, 2009
I hate him the least of the all the Angels.
Teej - December 3, 2009
We sign Figgins and I'm buying his jersey stat.
It’ll be like Magus joining your party in Chrono Trigger.
katal - December 3, 2009
This is the most apt comparison I've ever heard
OlSalty - December 3, 2009
I approve of this comment.
Goose - December 3, 2009
YES!
If they do this, Tony Blengino should clearly use this analogy in his conference call explaining the deal.
ARock - December 3, 2009
Referencing old RPGs may not be the best way for the new FO to shed its nerdy image amongst the casual fans.
Eyeball Kid - December 3, 2009
Seems to me that the team is going the other way around and trying to turn these casual fans into nerds.
Goose - December 3, 2009
Oh my God, yes.
That was fucking awesome.
DAMellen - December 3, 2009
Well this was great
I’m glad to see we’re finally going to do something about this Lavos menace.
Gihyou - December 4, 2009
Soooooo good.
SethGrandpa - December 4, 2009
I like that he can play everywhere
Poochie - December 3, 2009
Faced with either signing Figgins or re-signing Beltre
(Assuming these are the two we’re most seriously looking at)
With Figgins we would lose our first rounder but would still get the sandwich pick from losing Beltre, so we’re probably moving down like 20-ish spots(?). Whereas if we re-sign Beltre we keep our first rounder but lose the sandwich pick.
So looking at it that way it’s not quite so big a deal that he’s type A for us in particular if we aren’t going to pursue retaining Beltre. And if Boras is to be believed Beltre is going to be too expensive for us anyways.
Not to mention he’s a switch hitter who can play multiple positions which we know this front office is a fan of, and It kind of makes sense for us if his price has dropped enough.
OlSalty - December 3, 2009
Yeah, I though a long time about these two earlier this week
and I have to say that Figgins is just a better fit for the team from the offensive perspective. Switch hitter without a lot of power but who can take advantage of the gaps in the outfield.
mebpenguin - December 3, 2009
As much as I have hated on him for being an Angel I also greatly enjoy saying his name
So, there’s another check in the pro’s category.
OlSalty - December 3, 2009
Ichiro-Figgins at the top of the order.
1-2 punch!
Goose - December 3, 2009
Given that I think we have no chance at Beltre,
I really want Figgins.
Similar to Beltre but a better fit for the park. Safeco kills Beltre, he is just so much more valuable to someoen else, that I assume we will be outbid for him.
ARock - December 3, 2009
I'm not sure how he's similar to Beltre other than he's dark skinned and plays 3B
or do you mean his overall value? Cause as far as that goes, yeah, he’ll likely come out about the same as Beltre. But the way he’ll get there is going to be totally different.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 3, 2009
I'm going to have a hard time rooting for a player I spent so long hating.
I know its only a rumor, but as Dave points out it makes a lot of sense. Above average OBP with great speed and good glove sounds pretty good to me, plus he’s a switchie, has spent time at nearly every position, and has a clean bill of health.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 3, 2009
But think how fun it'll be
facing the Angels knowing that he’s wearing our uniform now and playing against them.
nathaniel dawson - December 3, 2009
That is until Adrian Beltre signs with the Angels.
Goose - December 3, 2009
GOD
Jeff Sullivan - December 3, 2009
Haha.
3rd baseman swap. Would be pretty close, really. But annoying if they get Beltre.
ARock - December 3, 2009
Thanks for ruining my fun
nathaniel dawson - December 3, 2009
YESSSSSSS.
Eyebrows - December 3, 2009
By the way, I so called this like three months ago.
Eyebrows - December 3, 2009
Yeah that was hard
Jeff Sullivan - December 3, 2009
This will be the best thing ever.
Beltre on the Angels, and I still get to scream CHONE! at games.
Eyebrows - December 3, 2009
Hmmm...
PositivePaul - December 4, 2009
Stop it, now.
msb - December 4, 2009
I flaged this as inappropriate.
InSpokane - December 4, 2009
Your mom is inappropriate
seattlebruin - December 4, 2009
Yes she is.
That does not change the fact that seeing Beltre in an Angels makes me a little sick to my stomach.
InSpokane - December 4, 2009
Sometimes I wonder if they hate us as much as we hate them.
They could easily hate Texas or Oakland more.
CapSea - December 3, 2009
Why would they hate us? We've sucked
Jeff Sullivan - December 3, 2009
Most Angels fans I know aren't really sure who the Mariners are.
Teej - December 3, 2009
"Aren't they that team in Alaska who won a bunch of games and then traded away A-Rod to Texas?"
katal - December 3, 2009
And I'm like, "Remember 1995?"
And they kinda do, but they got over it by winning a World Series and going to the playoffs every year ever. It’s definitely more of a rivalry on our end. At least fan-wise, I’d say.
Teej - December 3, 2009
Also there's the fact that most Angels fans are sub-par intelligence wise.
Mariner John - December 3, 2009
I highly suspect that most Angel fans don't remember past 2002.
It seems even more likely they don’t remember the mid-90s.
katal - December 3, 2009
I'm pretty sure very few of them know who Donnie Moore was also.
Sec 108 - December 4, 2009
Which just pisses me off even more because where's the fun in leaving a bag full of shit on someone's door if they're just like "What's this? A bag of shit? Those silly neighborhood kids. Oh that's kind of smelly, well into the trash with you."
OlSalty - December 3, 2009
Thats why you have to set it on fire.
ARock - December 3, 2009
Or set the house on fire
Jeff Sullivan - December 3, 2009
I think just a plain bag of shit is more spiteful rather than pranksterish
OlSalty - December 3, 2009
I'd agree.
Go with the spite minus the arson.
Sinking Away - December 3, 2009
Or even better Yusmeiro the poop on their walls
OlSalty - December 3, 2009
Or just put some shit on their favorite bag.
Teej - December 3, 2009
I think the reaction from Orange County people would be more like:
Oh My God. Someone left poopie on my porch. Honey call the realest agent it’s time to a different cal-da-sac.
Or, Honey call the little brown guy that does work around our house and tell him he forgot his lunch.
InSpokane - December 4, 2009
Given that Anaheim is in Orange County and Anaheim is a fucking dump, I am going to go out on a limb and say this generalization is only true of the extreme southwest portions of Orange County
seattlebruin - December 4, 2009
If that
seattlebruin - December 4, 2009
It's all Socal to me.
InSpokane - December 4, 2009
This may be true of some of the places with the word "Beach" in the name, at least.
xero3k - December 4, 2009
Considering most Angels fans are 8
I doubt they remember 1995.
cwel87 - December 4, 2009
This was sort of my thought.
I doubt the Angels would especially care if Chone ended up with us any more than some other team.
CapSea - December 3, 2009
I'd like it, so I could still see Chone all the time.
Eyebrows - December 3, 2009
By the way, it's pronounced "Shawn."
CapSea - December 3, 2009
I prefer "Chone".
royalcurve - December 3, 2009
You can pronounce it Ch♥ne.
CapSea - December 3, 2009
Magnificent idea!
royalcurve - December 3, 2009
You can make it a song!
“Even though I’m not your girl you’re not my man I’mma call you my Ch♥ne. Cuz I can’t stand to see you hittin bad, go beat his ass for me Ch♥ne. And you ain’t hit nothing that you ain’t supposed to do cuz you my Ch♥ne. Baby boy after you slide home hit my on the ring tone Ch♥♥♥♥♥♥♥neeeeeeee. Oh.. Oh Oh Oh”
CapSea - December 4, 2009
........ Oh dear.
royalcurve - December 4, 2009
Chart-knee?
OlSalty - December 3, 2009
It's pronounced "Shart."
CapSea - December 3, 2009
Speaking of which
I give it 3 weeks into the season before EnglishMariner gets so pissed at a poorly timed strikeout by Chone that he has an unfortunate misspelling and yells about how much he hates Figgers.
CapSea - December 4, 2009
It'll be like the Washburn signing all over again!
But we have to see him play everyday so it’s more like signing Scott Spiezio again!
Oh joy!
:-/
Wilder. - December 3, 2009
I hate it.
Partially for irrational reasons, sure, but mainly because I don’t think he’s good enough to justify giving up a first round pick. The FA compensation system could not be more retarded.
Aaron Campeau - December 3, 2009
I also think that long term deals for aging players that derive a ton of their value from defense are kind of a lousy bet.
Aaron Campeau - December 3, 2009
He has the kind of skillset that ages well.
Poochie - December 3, 2009
Speed?
abender20 - December 3, 2009
Black
CapSea - December 3, 2009
Definitely
perfectstrat - December 3, 2009
I don't think that usually ages particularly well
OlSalty - December 3, 2009
You may think that
But you’d be wrong.
CapSea - December 3, 2009
I'm 19 and have rusty knees =(
JamMasterJesus - December 4, 2009
Yikes
What is up with all the young people with joint issues around here? :(
OlSalty - December 4, 2009
I actually think its a muscle flexibility thing. But either way I cant drop it like it's hot.
JamMasterJesus - December 4, 2009
We play soccer
Graham MacAree - December 4, 2009
According to Buck O'Neill:
“Good black don’t crack.”
Phil Hatzenbuehler - December 4, 2009
Goddammit, I mean "O'Neil"
Phil Hatzenbuehler - December 4, 2009
There is a tall, elegant gentleman of 80 or so, who takes the 90+ year old lady downstairs to church each week
He makes me think of Buck whenever I see him, and it makes me smile.
msb - December 4, 2009
Offensively yes.
Is there any evidence that premium defensive players age in more predictable patterns based on skillset?
Aaron Campeau - December 3, 2009
I looked at his UZR numbers on Fangraphs. They aren't very good except his last two years at 3rd.
abender20 - December 3, 2009
Although I guess it isn't completely fair to evaluate a guy who changed positions every time the tide came in.
abender20 - December 3, 2009
Yeah, that's the other thing, small sample sizes abound.
Aaron Campeau - December 3, 2009
Yeah the sample sizes at every position besides 3B are probably too small to draw any meaningful conclusions from
Other than maybe CF but we’re probably not asking him to play there anyways.
OlSalty - December 3, 2009
Those two years happened though.
Aaron Campeau - December 3, 2009
And his 2004-2005 numbers were good as well
And he only played 34 games there in 2006.
OlSalty - December 3, 2009
I don't think there is enough evidence to dismiss signing defensive players for their defense based on rapid defensive decline
At least not in this case, because Figgins hasn’t shown any evidence of decline so far and if you’re going to take advantage of a player’s overall value to extract maximum value vs. your monetary investment this is sort of the risk you are acknowledging that you’re willing to take. 4 years might be a lot of time to think his defense will keep up but that is offset somewhat by his offensive skillset aging well.
I think you have to take into account that A) Beltre’s skillset ages even worse than Figgins by overall comparison, because we are ultimately signing him for his defense and offense in this park, and B) There are few other free agents who offer us a better free agent option this year that will not cause us to lose significant run production or prevention in 2010 and years beyond. If we can’t get Beltre back this makes total sense, or if Beltre is really trying to command a 4 year/40 mil contract like a fair contract for Figgins would.
OlSalty - December 4, 2009
I'm kinda hoping that signing Figgins=us trading Lopez for something shiny to make up for the loss of the pick.
Goose - December 3, 2009
I'd rather sign one of the non-Type A 2B.
Aaron Campeau - December 3, 2009
I'm on the O Dog bandwagon.
abender20 - December 3, 2009
If you aren't a fan of declining defense, you can't really be on the O-Dawg bandwagon.
Goose - December 3, 2009
He'll be cheap and won't cost a pick.
abender20 - December 3, 2009
And could probably be had on a short-term deal.
Aaron Campeau - December 3, 2009
Which is even better
abender20 - December 3, 2009
Those are the best free agents
Aaron Campeau - December 3, 2009
O-Dog / Wilson '10
abender20 - December 3, 2009
True, I'm just saying that his defense appears to be going south alot quicker than Figgins.
Goose - December 3, 2009
I'm kind of hoping that a killer whale eats your nuts
seattlebruin - December 4, 2009
So sometimes even if we think we are being objective, we are not and our emotions make things more complex than we perceive.
This is a good move and I am occasionally an idiot.
Aaron Campeau - December 4, 2009
You are such a good human being. I swear.
royalcurve - December 4, 2009
I refuse to allow this
A black Willie Bloomquist who is much better than Willie Bloomquist but is a career Angel is not something I want on a team I root for
Corco - December 3, 2009
Think of him as the price you have to pay to have Gregg Zaun on the team.
Eyeball Kid - December 3, 2009
It's almost like he's Mark McLemore with defense
Poochie - December 3, 2009
But will he always have his back pocket either turned out or containing a batting glove that hangs out?
abender20 - December 3, 2009
Is this something McLemore did?
Poochie - December 3, 2009
I seem to remember that it was usually the case.
abender20 - December 3, 2009
It added to his cool demeanor.
abender20 - December 3, 2009
Thanks, GIS
abender20 - December 3, 2009
His ass has wings
Gihyou - December 4, 2009
Rickey's all, "Hey, put Rickey down"
lemonverbena - December 4, 2009 via mobile
2000 ALDS, right?
Rachmaninoff - December 4, 2009
Ja.
Mariner John - December 4, 2009
Figgins always wears the mystery "X" band-aid on his inner left forearm every game.
That’s his thing and nobody ever mentions it, asks him about it, or has been allowed to comment about it.
44FAN - December 3, 2009
Except Mark McLemore was cool and a player fun to root for
Corco - December 4, 2009
You don't think Chone Figgins is the least bit better than Willie Bloomquist? My stars.
royalcurve - December 3, 2009
Maybe he thinks Willy is as good as Chone
abender20 - December 4, 2009
"who is much better than Willie Bloomquist"
Which is also kind of where it stops being a good comparison.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 4, 2009
Multiple Major League Sources Say Mariners, Chone Figgins Nod At One Another When Passing In The Hall.
msb - December 3, 2009
Wikipedia already has him on the Mariners.
Number 9, if you were curious.
waldo rojas - December 4, 2009
I just looked up his wiki page
he is listed as a free agent.
Cthaller59 - December 4, 2009
I can dig a Branyan-Figgins-Wilson-Beltre infield
Of course it won’t happen, but it would be a thing of beauty.
Ike Clanton - December 4, 2009
FWIW
Zduriencik on the potential loss of a pick
“Zduriencik also said he wouldn’t oppose losing next year’s draft pick if it would help acquire a player who could help them on a long-term basis.
Drafting 18th, he said, doesn’t bring the same guarantee of a player who’ll make an impact at the big leagues as someone in the top four or five picks.
"We all know lot of draft picks fall flat on their face," Zduriencik said. "You have to weigh all of that. You have to weigh whoever you sign and … how does he impact the big-league club and for how long?""
msb - December 4, 2009
And the M's could always use that Beltre sandwhich pick, to take a kid who
dropped out of the first round due to signability.
There are a bunch of kids who were first round talents who got picked up in later rounds of last year’s draft, given above slot money, and signed.
No reason to believe the M’s couldn’t get a first round caliber player with that supplemental pick if they are willing to spend the money.
Rudy4three - December 4, 2009
Something potentially big at the bottom of that article
OlSalty - December 4, 2009
Rosenthal now says ...
the Angels might not let Lackey get away, esp. if the M’s are trying for Lackey and Figgins
msb - December 4, 2009
Given the realism of signability/cost/committed years/talent level, give me Harden over Lackey any day
cwel87 - December 4, 2009
They probably can't afford it
Thanks GMJ!
OlSalty - December 4, 2009
But that would be cool because we don't want really want Lackey and it would cripple them payroll-wise
OlSalty - December 4, 2009
Yes, but signing an Angels player means you subtract from their roster as well!
Poochie - December 4, 2009
The other article has been updated to basically say that the deal would be for at least four years and is somewhat immanent barring an 11th hour trade of GMJ
How the hell to trade GMJ and get the other team to take on money is beyond me.
Poochie - December 4, 2009
Yeah I don't see that happening
The only way they’re going to free up money is if they pair him with someone else who actually does have significant value to another team. Because Matthews isn’t going to be worth more than a couple mil at most to any other team.
OlSalty - December 4, 2009
I think you mean negative $2m
Poochie - December 4, 2009
Dayton Moore could use an outfielder
abender20 - December 4, 2009
GMJ hasn't ever played for the Mariners, though.
xero3k - December 4, 2009
3 way!
Poochie - December 4, 2009
Us being in on Lackey doesn't pass the smell test
Poochie - December 4, 2009
John Lackey only looks like he smells
seattlebruin - December 4, 2009
Some times he looks like he smelling someone else ...
msb - December 4, 2009
Am I overvaluing draft picks?
I had already ruled out Figgins due to the loss of the pick. If we were signing, say, a Mark Teixera tier FA, then I’d be fine losing the pick, but Chone Figgins?
redwolf75 - December 4, 2009
Don't forget that the draft pick, while being worth roughly $5M
all comes in future value – a win in 2010 is much more valuable than a win in 2013, to paraphrase Keith Law
seattlebruin - December 4, 2009
Plus it is a #18 as opposed to top 5.
Sec 108 - December 4, 2009
Except if you think a win in 2013 is more likely to get this team into the playoffs/world series
than a win in 2010
Edgar for Pres - December 4, 2009
How can you possibly make that prediction, though?
value right now is always worth more than value in the future
seattlebruin - December 4, 2009
I definitely could have made that prediction in at any time during the Bavasi era when this team lost 100 games.
Sometimes value in the future is worth more.
Edgar for Pres - December 4, 2009
So in 2004 when they lost 99 games
you could have told me with absolute certainty that the wins would be worth more in 2007?
seattlebruin - December 4, 2009
Its a prediction
more times than not I would have been right.
Edgar for Pres - December 4, 2009
Depend on where the pick is and the strength of the draft year
Zduriencik has said that at 18, where the Ms will be, you really have no guarantee to pick up a premier talent. At any rate, you can be sure that a guy like him will be thinking about draft cost as well as the dollars.
Also, USSM and FG have made reference to some research by a Victor Wang (I think) into first rounder value and pegged it at about 5 million, in case youre worried about valuing the pick properly.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 4, 2009
Just look at our first round draft picks of the last 5 years.
Ackley is our most hopeful, but we drafted him at No. 2 overall.
Morrow and Aumont were conservative gambles. Fields was a terrible pick despite his potential late-game value. Clement was a solid pick that busted.
You just never know in the draft— it is a crapshoot. Signing someone with Figgins’ known value is likely to be worth more than a No. 17 overall draft pick.
Wilder. - December 4, 2009
Morrow was a gamble, I don't think he was conservative though.
One of the things Fontaine liked to do was pick up players who had just recently broken out. Considering that Morrow had been straightening his mechanics out the first two years of college and only really busted out as a senior, there was reason to believe that he had more growth ahead of him and was only beginning to scratch the surface. I don’t think that was a bad assumption so much as the handling of him, which would be better suited for a more polished prospect, was complete bullshit.
JY - December 4, 2009
Not $5 million, this is only the 17th pick here.
Probably a couple million less than that.
Note also that if we sign one type A, we might as well sign a second. Better to do multiple in one year than to spread them out.
ARock - December 4, 2009
CHONE
royalcurve - December 4, 2009
Latest from Rosenthal has M's on the verge of Chone
reportedly 4/36 or so. Which would be just great.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 4, 2009
Churchill tweets that it's $34-36 mill.
JY - December 4, 2009
WOOOOOOOO!
4 years at 9 million each is awesome, imo.
ARock - December 4, 2009
Thats like only 3 million a win.
ARock - December 4, 2009
Super
Between Chone Hall and Hannahan we’d have three guys who can competently play 5-6 positions.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 4, 2009
Yep looks like it's about to actually happen
Those are pretty great terms if true.
OlSalty - December 4, 2009
I am at odds.
I feel this joy of something happening with the Mariners filling a need, but then I think of Felix not getting the extension I hoped would get done this offseason.
Wilder. - December 4, 2009
STOP THINKING THAT.
GOD.
JY - December 4, 2009
No reason that won't get done too at this point
OlSalty - December 4, 2009
No reason to think this precludes a Felix extension that is.
OlSalty - December 4, 2009
They're meeting with his agent next week
OlSalty - December 4, 2009
I dont think that our first free agent acquisition suddenly rules out Felix.
ARock - December 4, 2009
Hopefully makes him think that the team is more committed to winning and makes him want to sign more!
seattlebruin - December 4, 2009
More money tied up means less available.
But I would be willing to bet the Mariners’ owner would open up his wallet to extend Felix (even if the initial budget was reached). I just want to see it happen so I don’t need to worry about it anymore.
Wilder. - December 4, 2009
There's that, but there's also the possibility of backloading Felix's contract.
xero3k - December 4, 2009
I don't like the idea of back loading contracts (even though it is the most common).
1. It delays budget issues and hurts the team in later years.
2. It makes the player less tradable in the future.
Wilder. - December 4, 2009
It also accounts for inflation and allows teams to budget years ahead.
Those things are much more important that the negatives.
Aaron Campeau - December 4, 2009
Inflation is unpredictable in baseball.
In fact, there has been a huge deflationary period these last two seasons. And if you are budgeting ahead in the future, having a back loaded contract is the worst thing you want to happen. You would rather be paying less in future years so your budget is much more flexible.
The only advantage of a back loaded contract is to fit a player into your current budget. But without a salary cap, it’s pretty ridiculous to even worry about going over your personal budget by a few million (you are only penalizing yourself).
Wilder. - December 5, 2009
"In fact, there has been a huge deflationary period these last two seasons."
No, not really. Certain types of players have seen their market value take a hit, sure, and the cost per win hasn’t increased at the same rate as in years past, but this time last year no one knew whether or not we were looking at another economic depression. This past season saw attendance drop league wide and there is a lack of the types of players that tend to get huge contracts this season.
Jason Bay was offered $15 million a year for four years. CC Sabathia and Mark Teixeira both got ridiculous money last season. These sorts of things don’t indicate deflation, they indicate a shift in the market value of certain skill sets.
Inflation in baseball isn’t all that unpredictable. To think that it will not occur implies that you believe that the economy at large is going to enter a prolonged deflationary spiral. Even last off-season, when that looked like an actual possibility, teams gave out big contracts.
Aaron Campeau - December 5, 2009
You can argue for inflation.
But the truth of the matter is, a player who signs for $45 million, it doesn’t really matter if in later years that his contract reflects inflation. He is going to get $45 million either way. Why not keep future payments as low as possible?
I would much rather have a 9/9/9/9/9 contract over that $45 million than a 5/6/9/11/14. Back loading makes no sense with guaranteed contracts (in the NFL it works wonders). Like I said, the only benefit is to fit a player within the current budget. And without a league salary cap, current budgets are relative to what an organization wants to set it at. There is no penalty for going over.
Wilder. - December 5, 2009
Because
A) Players and agents know that inflation exists and
B) You are generally going to have one or two contracts coming off the books each year. If you backload the Figgins contract, he’s getting less money with Silva’s $12 million on the books and more without it and
C) Budgets exist because baseball teams are a business and businesses work within a budget. It’s not as simple as “There’s no salary cap so you don’t need to worry about your budget going forward.” As inflation increases, so (theoretically) will revenues and the payroll budget. There is a certain amount of risk involved, certainly, but it’s a better-than-decent gamble.
Aaron Campeau - December 5, 2009
I'm going to respectfully disagree with each of your points.
A. Inflation simply does not matter when you agree to a contract. If the player and agent care about inflation, it will already be reflected in the $45 million. As for when the player should want that money, if concerned about inflation, he will want it sooner rather than later. Two reasons why: 1) his buying power is greater today than in the future, and 2) he can earn interest on the money to keep up with inflation.
B. Carlos Silva is a sunk cost. You shouldn’t change your spending habits based on sunk costs. It’s more beneficial budget-wise to pay less in the future. This is why I said earlier that back loaded contracts are delaying budget issues. Instead of taking the budget hit this year, when you can safely project the players on the team, you cause budget problems in future years because you have less financial flexibility. It becomes a never-ending cycle and it may catch up to you (Bavasi allowed budget issues to catch up).
C) Businesses have budgets. Businesses routinely go over budget. There is no penalty to go over budget in baseball, except the possibility of running the business at a loss (which we don’t ever know because the numbers are not made public). I never insinuated “there’s no salary cap so you don’t need to worry about your budget going forward.” In fact, this statement is the exact point I am trying to make. It is better to take the budget hit this year so the budget is more flexible going forward. By back loading contracts, you limit your budget flexibility in future years. And if your budget decreases dramatically from unforeseen circumstances, as the Mariners have seen happen, then your budget can become an even bigger issue because you may have succeeded the budget amount before it has been determined (which is especially happening to the Tigers right now).
Here’s my idea: front load contracts.
Let me take Figgins’ contract as an example. 4-year, $36 million with an performance option for a potential worth 5-year, $45 million. That’s $9 million a year on average. Figgins has no incentive to perform except during that 4th season. He is already guaranteed $36 million.
1. Remove the 5th year performance option.
2. Front load the payments at 12/10/8/5
3. Place performance bonuses in the 3rd and 4th season (I won’t speculate what those would be, although a wOBA-based incentive would be neat).
4. Have those bonuses max out at $3 million each year ($6 in total).
5. Add a team option for a 5th year, $6 million.
The total amount of this contract could be worth $48 million. I know it is more than the $45 million, but that 5th year can be refused by the Mariners and the contract max out at $42 million. Either way, Figgins is still guaranteed his $36 million with two incentive-laden years instead of one.
At first you would think this contract is bad for the player and good for the team. However, it is great for both sides. Figgins’ real life contract already has a performance option in the 4th year. But he needs to reach those levels to guarantee a 5th year and another $9 million. The Mariners, declining age, and injuries can all keep Figgins from earning the performance option. With the contract that I have proposed, Figgins can earn up to $6 million of that $9 million without a 5th season (real incentives!). The Mariners, meanwhile, are already paying less in those last two years because the contract was front loaded. The potential extra $3 million each season isn’t likely to kill the budget and they will have a great player worth the money if he does reach those levels.
Even if Figgins doesn’t reach the $3 million in the 3rd year, he can earn the $3 million in the 4th year and the Mariners would be more likely to pick up the cheap option 5th year for $6 to keep the total at $45 million, 5 years. I just don’t see why this kind of thinking doesn’t happen more often. If it does, why would either the team or the player reject something like this?
Any thoughts?
Wilder. - December 5, 2009
Whoops, the contract years should be 12/10/8/6 to equal 36, not 35.
Wilder. - December 5, 2009
Huh?
Signing Figgins means absolutely nothing re: Felix.
Jeff Sullivan - December 4, 2009
I'm thinking from a budget standpoint.
$9 million to Figgins in the supposed $25 million to spend this offseason means less can go to Felix. Not that I want Felix to be paid the $25 million, but let’s say we reach that $25 million after filling out the roster and Felix still isn’t signed to an extension. That’s how I am viewing this, even if it is irrational.
Wilder. - December 4, 2009
I think ownership would be OK with busting the budget for Felix
he is the best player after all
seattlebruin - December 4, 2009
The $25m already accounted for Felix taking up about $10m
Jeff Sullivan - December 4, 2009
So does this mean there is going to be about $6 million left if we sign Figgins?
Wilder. - December 4, 2009
Oh wait, I read that wrong.
Wilder. - December 4, 2009
I am irrationally paranoid.
Wilder. - December 4, 2009
If by $6 you meant $16
Then yes. Of course it could be +/- a few depending on the structure and back-loading.
arbeck77 - December 4, 2009
I think you're already forgetting the money owed to Felix outside the $25 million
He’s going to get around $9-$10 million in arbitration. A four year deal would probably be structured something like 12-16-20-22. So we’re talking like $2 million from the budget for a long term signing.
arbeck77 - December 4, 2009
The 25 million to spend factors in Felix' salary for next year I think.
Its not like he’d pitch for free if he doesn’t sign a contract and I doubt any long term deal would not happen because the Ms are short of money in 2010.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 4, 2009
Live update of comments not working at all.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 4, 2009
I'm okay with the piling on of my irrationality.
Wilder. - December 4, 2009
Sigh
Goose - December 4, 2009
This is how I feel.
I know he is a quality player but its fucking Figgins.
Scruffy Lefty - December 4, 2009
You'll learn to love him.
royalcurve - December 4, 2009
Like hell I will.
Goose - December 4, 2009
Mariners shirt = on our side now
pdb - December 4, 2009
Not you. Scruffy. You can hate Figgins forever if you feel like it.
royalcurve - December 4, 2009
If he hits a HR in his debut
I’m making a gif of me and him riding the Llamapillar to the moon!
Scruffy Lefty - December 4, 2009
That's the spirit!
royalcurve - December 4, 2009
I agree. Its gonna be a tough change.
Edgar for Pres - December 4, 2009
I'll help you turn that frown upside-down.
Eyebrows - December 4, 2009 via mobile
I'm a little worried that Safeco will hurt Figgins' power.
Sec 108 - December 4, 2009
He has power?
Scruffy Lefty - December 4, 2009
31 career homers!
Sec 108 - December 4, 2009
Bigger gaps in safeco allow him to get more doubles?
Scruffy Lefty - December 4, 2009
He is the most recent Angel to hit for the cycle!
Eyebrows - December 4, 2009 via mobile
I like this.
Now, if Zduriencik can sign Johnson and Harden, and ink Felix long-term, I’ll be really happy.
xero3k - December 4, 2009
If we re-sign Beltré, move Figgins to 2nd, and move
José Lopez for something decent, I will be very happy indeed.
redwolf75 - December 4, 2009
I like that the Angels are scrambling to keep up with the Mariners.
BrockandSalk Twitter:
Wilder. - December 7, 2009
I would like to see them make some impulse trades and bad signings.
Sounds like they are scrambling like Bavasi did.
Wilder. - December 7, 2009
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