Lookout Landing

No, it wouldn't.

Seriously. One postseason does not a career make, even if it’s the only season you make the World Series, and you hit great in it.

The Hall of Fame is pretty specific about that- it’s where you do your body of work and “make your indelible mark” for your career. This is why RJ is a D-Back, probably (multiple Cy Youngs), and Maddux is a Brave (ditto).

I think you're both wrong

Doesn’t the player get to “make a strong request” as to what hat they wear? And I think Griffey’s made it pretty clear already that he wants to go in as a Mariner (see: his speech last spring). Unless a player requests a team that they only played for a for a few days, I was under the impression the Hall honored their requests.

themoose - February 12, 2009 reply

Not anymore. The Hall got tired of old players having contracts (Boggs in TB?)

That would stipulate which hat was to be worn. So the Hall announced it was their call.

Unless that changed along the way that is how they currently operate.

As far as I'm aware, the Hall makes the decision.

And Eponymous is totally right in that, really, when any fan thinks about Griffey, they think about him robbing HRs in Seattle and his ’97 MVP season, which makes him a virtual lock to go in the hall as a Mariner, even if he wanted to be remembered as a White Sock.

My position is that it would take an incredibly ridiculous season (i.e. Bonds 2001) where he somehow makes people forget about his time in Seattle, blows the crap out of everyone, and does it on the game’s biggest stage for the Hall to even consider putting him in as anything besides a Mariner.

Your avatar = instant win.

You mean this ol' thing?

Phil Hatzenbuehler - February 13, 2009 reply

Heh, yeah.

I remember seeing that picture sometime around summer of last season. I advocated it but obviously it’ll never happen.

Fearless Frog - February 13, 2009 reply

Goddammit.

Welcome Home Junior.

Goose - February 11, 2009 reply

He needs to get 2 home runs to make 400 as a Mariner, if I remember correctly. I want to see that get done.

If he gets hurt and misses most of the season after he does that, I won’t complain too much.

Two Rs and Two Ls - February 11, 2009 reply

That is why I loved that last game in their three game series here two years ago.

Junior hit two home runs and we won the game. Hitting those two made it feel like he finally got to 400.

thewyrm - February 12, 2009 reply

You know, the original trade in the '99-'00 offseason happened at around midnight or something odd.

Do you suppose they’d make the signing official at some weird time like that?

I don't see why they'd want to commemorate him being traded to the Reds

I still say...

…that the blogosphere is being a bit conservative in just how many extra tickets KGJ would sell (above and beyond the regular ticket buying public). There are a lot of people whose baseball fandom centered around Griffey and while they recognize he’s no longer that player, they still want to come see him play at least one more time in person. Yeah, he’s likely to suck pretty hard core most of the time, and runs a pretty high risk of being injured. I don’t deny that. But still — accepting that a lot of people disagree — I’m not so sure he couldn’t fill up Safeco a few extra times, even if it is at the bookends of the season. I know I’m going to buy tickets for both the opener and the last game if he signs. Normally, I buy just the opener, but I’d spring for the extra just for the chance that he’s healthy enough to play in the last game. And if they announce a “KGJ Day” like they did for Edgar that wasn’t on the last day of the season, I’d buy tickets for that game too.

Yeah, the novelty will not sustain itself for the entire season, but it doesn’t have to. The M’s DESPERATELY need something to draw fans in during a season of rebuilding. People paying attention to the M’s is good for everyone.

Do you suppose it would be about even to the Safeco Field new-ballpark-smell attendance spike?

Or more dramatic just because this figures on being a one-year deal?

I know one thing, if he announces his retirement, I will also be buying a ticket for the last game of the season just for the fact that it's Griffey's last game.

Going 20-8 in April or being in a playoff race for a few months would draw far more people.

I hope people coming to see Griffey will come out and say “Wow, this is a good team!” “Look at how awesome that outfield defense is!” “This Felix guy can really pitch!” “I guess they really are building toward something!”

But that isn’t going to happen. The “Griffey fan” will come see Griffey take a few at bats and leave after the 6th inning.
They will come back at the end of 2010 when the team is winning again. And they will ask why Griffey isn’t playing anymore.

Disagree

Who exactly did people come out to see in 2001? Sure, that was a team coming off an ALCS appearance, but there was no one besides Edgar who had a long-term connection with the team (since Buhner barely played). People will come see winning baseball, no matter who’s playing.

Here's where I'm skeptical...

The Mariners have lost a lot of fans over the last 3-4 years. A lot. The team was pretty competitive in 2007 – even being reasonably close to the playoffs and in within 2-3 games of first up into August. They were 20 games over .500 at the end of August, and 1 game back just before going into the fateful series vs. the Angels at home (after leaving Texas they were 3 games back, having lost 2 of 3 there). Attendance certainly spiked for that Angels series, but completely collapsed there after with the team’s collapse. Prior to that home series vs. the Angels, though, the attendance certainly wasn’t crazy (when the team was indeed well over .500 and in a playoff race).

Even with, say, Abreu instead of Griffey, the team would need some major miracles to go 20-8 in April, and be in the thick of a playoff race for most of the season. The 2009 M’s are likely a much better team than the 2008 M’s, but I’m not convinced that they’re a playoff team, even with a better bat than Griffey. But even if they WERE a playoff caliber team, it’d take something pretty special (i.e. like 2001’s team) to get a lot of people to pay attention. Especially with the “no-names” that they’ve added. I don’t see a lot of casual fans going gung-ho after Franklin Gutierrez or Endy Chavez jerseys. But they’d certainly go after Griffey jerseys AND tickets to see him play. Especially when The Yellow Dart and the rest of the M’s marketing crew take full advantage of the Griffey signing and market the crap out of his return for those late-April, early-May cold home dates where attendance is less-than-stellar.

So you're saying basically

unless the Mariners are the greatest team of all time, they’re going to have trouble drawing?

Somewhat...

Had they NOT signed Griffey, it’d take some serious winning for the team to draw back in the fans that have been burned since 2004 — not just merely being close to contention. Yes, winning would help a lot — but it’d take awhile for the fans to re-gain interest.

But, then, I’m also in the very small minority of people that think that Griffey might actually contribute a reasonable amount and that his signing doesn’t make them a worse team (i.e. it’s a move that could at least potentially HELP the team move towards contention), so I am rather biased. No, I don’t think he’ll OPS over .850 or hit more than 20-25 HRs at best — most certainly not the numbers most fans remember him putting up. But as long as he stays relatively healthy, he’ll hit decently. Certainly a lot better than what we got from the previous DHs…

I think they'll see a push for opening and closing week (assuming he retires)

But if we’re losing in the summer, it won’t matter much unless Griffey is hitting the holy fuck out of the ball.

I liken it to running into an old friend who you haven't seen for years

it’s fun to hang out for one night, but then the two of you realize you no longer have anything in common and while you still like the other person fine, you don’t want to hang out every night for next six months because you’d drive each other insane and end up resenting one another.

Right. I get that...

It’s just that there are a holy hellfull of Griffey fans – casual Griffey fans who really don’t care too much about baseball. Not every one of them will be able to a) get tickets for early-season games (since they’re likely going to be VERY hard to come by) or b) arrange their schedule to make it to Safeco to a game. Heck, I’d even think that there are more than a few native Seattleites who watched him in the 1990s but now live out of town — and they’d make a special trip to see him play IN Seattle. No, those numbers don’t amount to much in the long run. But they still count for more than a few tickets.

Attendance is a lagging indicator

Good thing I read the rest of the thread. I was about to post this.

The M’s are going to have a tough draw regardless probably until June when the weather gets better. Griffey ought to mitigate that effect, though.

The type of causal of fans that would be attracted to the ballpark just to see Griffey

Are the same fans that would go to a game just for a giveaway or because its a weekend or nice day.

Raises hand in shame

I'm curious to know what your opinion of the situation would be

If it weren’t Junior, just some guy who had Junior’s identical numbers (projections included).

Say we went after Bobby Abreu, couldn’t sign him for the price we wanted, so we got the second best guy, Ben Biffey III. Imagine no history, no expectations, no questions on motives from the Front Office, this was just another move that Z made. How you all feel about such a pickup?

*

how WOULD you all feel about such a pickup.

So basically like Mike Sweeney.

ThundaPC - February 12, 2009 reply

CHONE

Projections for Sweeny:
.253/.315/.406
12 HR, .319 wOBA

Projections for Griffey:
.243/.333/.418
19 HR, .332 wOBA

Also, Sweeney’s right handed.

My point was the team wanted to add a lefty bat anyway for the DH role and spotting occasional outfield starts. You could certainly do a lot worse, so I’m just curious what the response would be to this kind of pickup were it not Junior? Ambivalence, bemusement, anger?

I wasn’t a big “bring Griffey back” guy, but then when I considered that he actually fit the role we needed to fill anyway I was came to the conclusion that he should be second choice behind Abreu, so even if it weren’t Griffey I still would have probably been in favor of a move like this (assuming it goes down) with this skill set.

Concentration

Jesus I can’t type a sentence to save my life right now. I’m going to sleep.

So yea, basically like (a left-handed) Mike Sweeney.

Indifference.

ThundaPC - February 12, 2009 reply

I'd be upset that we missed on a cheap Abreu but I'd accept that we did the ~best we could do given our budget

I still would’ve rather seen a trade, but I guess that wasn’t feasible.

Using my high-tech aging software

I inserted this picture

and I got this

I can't wait until 2029 when we're talking about bringing Felix back for one last hurrah.

I hope it doesn't come to that.

i.e. he’s here until 2029

Agreed.

Hey, he says he wants to stay on his MySpace, and you’re not allowed to lie on those…right?

Link?

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=190430923

Well the link didn't work.

They don't in the subject line.

I'm happy

Look, was it the best solution from a purely baseball standpoint? Probably not. But guess what…he’s still Ken Griffey Jr, and if he retires as a Mariner it will make me (and a lot of other fans) happy

Furthermore

This is, I think, a deal that was inevitable from a money standpoint. Once it was clear that Griffey’s asking price was going to be in the $2-3 mil range, this became a slam dunk for the team. Coming off a 101-loss season, in a year where the economy has tanked, they couldn’t ask for a better selling point to the casual fan. Sure, we may think the team is close to contention, but most fans don’t, so they’re not going to buy tickets (especially for April/May games) unless they have some other reason to go. Griffey is that reason. If the team is competitive, people will show up in July/August/September no matter what, but those early season games count too, and I think the front office is seeing this as a can’t-miss opportunity.

Roy Weaver Stuckey - February 12, 2009 reply

Agreed

Even if he blows out his knee or hurts his back or whatever else in mid-June, he’d still be worth a two million dollar salary, provided he doesn’t spend too much time in the field. Hell, Silva gets paid 4 times that amount and doesn’t fill a single seat and was certainely a lot worse in 2008 than KGJ. It’s the Mariner’s best course of action, and because we all expect him to get hurt and therefore he signs for less, he could genuinely become a brilliant pickup worth far above his salary if he somehow finds a way to stay healthy.

Ezzra - February 12, 2009 reply

Quick Question...

Anyone know when Mariners single game tix go on sale? I can’t find the date anywhere on the M’s site.

I assume anywhere from mid to late March.

they mentioned it on the hot stove show last weekend

for some reason March 15th sticks in my brain.

Sundays are slow days for Ticketmaster

and the first day single-game tix go on sale is always a big day so they do it on a Sunday so the spike in business doesn’t overwhelm people trying to buy tickets for other things.

I hope this is a wonderful season for the team and the fans...

and this is the story book ending to Griffey’s career so many have been demanding for awhile now.

Over/under Griffey demands a trade by the All-Star break?

This would be hilarious

and very possibly make me cry.

He will want to end his playing days closer to his family.

I started following the Mariners just as Griffey was forcing them to trade him.

My loyalties are to Mike Cameron. Screw Griffey.

b_rider - February 12, 2009 reply

You need to understand you are vastly in the minority.

thewyrm - February 12, 2009 reply

There are legions of fans who started following the M's

only because of Griffey. I’m one of them. It is people like us who, no matter how upset we were by the trade ~~demand~~ extortion, no matter how much we know that he ain’t the Griffey of old, still love the idea of seeing him back with the M’s. As long as he won’t cost too much and as long as he won’t play in the field and as long as he won’t hit against left-handers – even though we all remember the announcers telling us how he hit lefties as well as righties because he learned to hit against his father, who was left-handed – we can’t get past the nostalgia and the appropriateness of his coming back to where it all began.

And I say this as a huge Mike Cameron fan, he who hit four home runs on my birthday once.

pygmalion - February 12, 2009 reply

Griffey was my favorite player up until the day he forced his way out.

This would have been fun two years ago when he would have been a decent DH, but I have no interest in getting in a year long trip on the nostalgia train because I don’t want my last memories of him causing this team to lose.

Griffey is STILL my favorite player, even with the force out.

I feel as though any bad memories of Griffey were simply suppressed.

Ezzra - February 12, 2009 reply

Who were the players people loved beyond all reason before Griffey? Trying to put myself in b_riders shoes.

Can’t think of a single one, and it seems like I’m missing something. Mark Langston was pretty good, but he wasn’t the caliber of player that could steal my heart. Griffey’s swing, RJ making a batter’s knees buckle with his slider, Dan Wilson calling 5 forkballs in the dirt, in a row. Everything about Buhner was special. Moyer to a lesser extent, control pitchers are kind of hard to get excited about. Cammie, but he was filling Griffey’s shoes and I couldn’t fall for him.

Since then there’s been a lot of busts, Felix is top flight. I’m getting excited about Morrow. That’s a lot of years without a couple franchise type players, when you get used to seeing the best. Makes me sad for people just tuning into the team during these years.

Kermit. - February 12, 2009 reply

The only one that was close was Langston

And he wasn’t really “loved beyond all reason”. There were lots of players that were appreciated, but Griffey’s unique; not just because of his prodigious baseball talent, but because he’s seen, rightly or wrongly, as singlehandedly leading the team to the playoffs for the first time and saving baseball in Seattle. Whether those two items are true or not is irrelevant as far as the Bring Back Griffey Brigade is concerned.

I like how the season in which he led us to the playoffs was the season in which he missed the most games and had his worst numbers

One thing I've learned from the Bring Back Griffey Brigade

never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

It was all Alex Diaz in 1995.

.286 OBP in nearly 300 PAs.

But he made that amazing catch….

I honestly don’t remember being as out and out horrible as his stats indicate.

He had that one homer where he did the cool bat flip.

He was a badass defender though. His UZR was sick that year.

He was a badass defender, yes, but my god he couldn't hit.

I’m kind of taken aback by his stat lines now.

We've been down this road before

Diaz played good defense. He also hit like his grandmother.

Haha, I was waiting for you to reply.

Yes, I am one guy who thinks Griffey was incredibly overrated as a defender. It is really easy to make catches at the wall when you always position yourself 20 feet away from it.

That's smart, though...

When you’ve got a flyball-oriented pitching staff and are playing in a homer dome, you have to give a dude credit for being in position to make the plays. Being smart about positioning certainly should be credited to the fielder…

I will give you that. He knew was he was doing and he never dropped a ball.

And yeah

My rising to the bait was as predictable as, well, the Mariners resigning Griffey

How people always talk about Griffey that season

and forget about the numbers Edgar (.356/.479/.628) and Randy (214.3 IP, 294 Ks) put up is beyond me.

EnglishMariner - February 12, 2009 reply

Who are they?

kentroyals5 - February 12, 2009 reply

Holy fuck a Mariner had that battling line?!

I starting supporting in the wrong decade.

Yep

A-Rod, Griffey, Edgar and Buhner were a Murderer’s Row. Other than the whole “not getting to the World Series” thing, it was really awesome.

The “watching Randy, Griffey and A-Rod leave town” thing sucked also.

lemonverbena - February 12, 2009 reply

Too bad the bullpen was awful and the non-RJ starters were nothing to write home about

because hot damn that team could hit

They had other starters

Esp. in 1997, when Moyer and Fassero were both quite good. Really highlights just how historically awful that bullpen was. Norm Charlton getting 70 innings of replacement-levelish performance in high leverage situations, Bob Wells sucking, the disaster that was Heathcliff Slocumb.

Oh huh

I always forget Fassero was good back then, and Moyer was just starting to become the Moyer we know now.

I guess I was thinking more of the Bob Wells/Ken Cloudes/Bob Walcotts of the world

Of course, my memories of 1995 and 1997 are probably much worse than a lot of folks, since I was like 10/12 when those happened.

You shut your moth about Bob Wolcott

Just turn the lights off.

Ken Cloude :(

I was at his first game and thought he had a shot at being decent,

but I was wrong.

Jed MC - February 12, 2009 reply

Scott Sanders completely collapsing killed us

I still maintain that Jeff Reboulet and Mike Mussina

Are the reasons that team failed.

Charlton was a heaven-sent savior compared to the rest of the firestarters

lemonverbena - February 12, 2009 reply

7+ ERA is awful

How did I miss this comment?

I think I saw him get at least 7 blown saves that year and that ignores road games. Norm’s arm was toast that year.

Yup

It’s not just that he was awful that year, it was that he got to demonstrate just how awful he was 71 times.

I remember booing him even though I loved him.

Whoa, I thought we were talking about 1995. Sorry.

Charlton was pretty clutch in ’95.

lemonverbena - February 13, 2009 reply

But this is maybe the point

His injury provides this even more ridiculous subplot to that season: we made the playoffs despite not having out best player, and one of the best players in the league, for 3 months.

He was also an utter beast against the Yankees (as was Edgar).

While true, if Griffey didn't return from his injury in August, the Mariners would probably not have overcome that 11.5 game deficit and make the playoffs.

The first time, sure

but in 1997 he was pretty legitimately great.

Absolutely

Derense, Jeff, defense

He was ridiculously good in the playoffs

That's why I've never associated 1995 with Griffey

Edgar and Randy were always the biggest heroes of that year in my mind. In fact I had a 1996 baseball game for the PSX that featured the most retarded baseball engine ever designed to constantly remind me how poorly Griffey played that year. For some reason it thought that every players stats ought to match the last season’s stats exactly. Hence, every season Griffey would hit like crap with some power and Edgar was a monster. Honestly Baseball Stars on the NES had a better idea of baseball.

pygmalion - February 13, 2009 reply

Let's put it in even MORE context...

Which sports player in ANY pro sport — or, heck, even College sports — in Seattle rivals Griffey’s belovedness? Largent? Payton? Wilkins? Sikma? Zorn? Easley? Edgar? RJ? Any of the Tuiasosopos? Fred Hutchinson? Slick Watts? Dr. Dan Doornink? Chip Hanauer?

Largent is probably second to Griffey, and maybe Edgar is up there too.

Payton, definitely.

Then Edgar, then Largent.

That's where I have them, as well.

Gil Dobie.

He said player

Steve Emtman is in there for UW fans.

YES.

Best college football player I’ve ever seen.

I was going to put him down, definitely...

See, I don't know if college players are the same

Sure, Emtman was the largest reason that team won a Championship, but guys who only spend 3-4 years in town just can’t have the same resonance that a guy like Griffey, or Edgar, or Payton, or whomever has. You can grow up with those guys in a way that you can’t with a college player.

One guy who I think might have a chance to change that somewhat is Brandon Roy, but that’s in part because he’s been a local guy the whole time, and still plays close by.

Also, college rivalries split the fan base by more than half immediately.

There is no way the majority of the Seattle area would hold a college player above someone like Griffey, Payton, Edgar, or Largent.

Agreed.

I just threw it out there in case I was missing someone huge. Like Sonny Sixkiller or Jim Owens for those few really old ones among us…

Muncey

Bill Muncey.

Tekboy - February 15, 2009 reply

I loved Julio Cruz beyond all reason, but those were the (extremely) lean years.

lemonverbena - February 12, 2009 reply

No I am the same way.

Still vastly in the minority.

In retrospect, Vince was going for Alex's wallet in that photo a couple years too early....

Shawk - February 12, 2009 reply

No Sir, I don't like it

Two reasons:
1) There will be a spike in non-fan attendance at Safeco. This will make tickets tougher to come by. Additionally, I know I should have been happy that the Mariners were so popular earlier this decade, but I never enjoyed going to Safeco between 2001 and 2003 and being surrounded by people talking on their cell phones about what Sarah wore to work yesterday. I feel like this is going to happen again.
2) Somewhere between the start of the off-season and now, I went from planning on purchasing a KGJ jersey to not being interested in one at all. I suspect it’s primarily for all the reasons you laid out in your first paragraph. I simply will not be pleased when Swisher, Abreu, and Dunn are all enjoying seasons that feature better numbers than Griffey’s, while meanwhile ownership & the local media are still singing praises that #24 is back.

We’ve all seen Edgar’s last tour of duty, and we’ve possibly seen Walter Jones’s as well. They weren’t wondrous celebrations of a player’s incredibly successful career. They were sad, and I was almost finding myself looking forward to when the player went away. I’m not interested in more of that.

.

They weren’t wondrous celebrations of a player’s incredibly successful career

I completely disagree.

Edgar's last game at Safeco was an amazing day

With that exception, the season was spent watching a man who I tremendously respect perform as a shell of his old self. That’s fine, and better watching Edgar than Carl Everett or Jose Vidro, but there was nothing poignant about watching him OPS in the low-700s.

I wonder how Griffey is going to top Edgar's career-ending double play

He could do the opposite of what he did in Little Big League

All a one-game playoff against the Twins, Griffey somehow finding his way to the outfield. Then, with the go-ahead run on second base in the bottom of the twelfth inning, Joe Mauer can hit the ball to deep left-center field. Griffey will chase it down and make an incredible leap, but ultimately the ball will deflect off his glove, allowing the Twins to score and advance to the ALDS.

I hope he pulls a Ted Williams and refuses to play after hitting a homer.

That would be awesome

but then I’m a spiteful bastard like that. Hits a HR, trots around the bases, runs into the dugout, down to the clubhouse, and out the door. Done.

Add in one last crotch grab for Sparky Anderson and you have perfection.

Last season, I listened to a monologue about a woman's journey through the realm of moisterizer.

These things don’t go away, even when the team is terrible.

Explain

What?

From Katal's post above

I never enjoyed going to Safeco between 2001 and 2003 and being surrounded by people talking on their cell phones about what Sarah wore to work yesterday.

Whoops a doodle

I knew that I was just being intentionally dense for comic effect.

Thank god pdb is around

I keep trying to tell people that but nobody listens to me

I guess I should stop telling that to random people I walk by on the sidewalk.

Last May I laid into the woman who has sat behind us for the past four years.

She would sit there and talk about anything but the game non-stop every freaking time she showed up.

Thank God she moved to a different section this year.

What?

Double06 - February 12, 2009 reply

Um, I told the lady who used to have seats behind me that I was tired

of hearing about her personal life every time she came to a game. Was I that unclear?

Explain

Playing off of NOLA's comment about how people come to the park

and basically ignore the game. For four years I had to listen to this woman chatter non-stop and I finally snapped and told her how I felt. She has since relocated to another section which makes me very happy.

I have nowhere left to go with this joke.

I'm clueless, as usual.

pdb, where are you?

I get it, just not quick enough.

I’m still not allowed to eat with a fork either.

This lady really threw you for a loop, eh?

Just talking about your experience messes with your mind.

Not that. I had some beers last night for the first time in a few weeks.

I’m a little slower than normal today.

those of us still on the wagon will miss you

That clears it up a bit.

Double06 - February 12, 2009 reply

I hate you

Rotoworld:

ESPN.com reports that the Mariners “have stepped up the pace in negotiations” with Ken Griffey Jr.
According to the report Griffey is seeking a one-year, $5 million deal, but the Mariners have also been linked recently to Garret Anderson.

That's $4.25M more than what Floyd signed for

Griffey had better put a lot of asses in seats.

I might go to Safeco with a sign that reads

“~~Mick Foley~~ Ken Griffey Jr. put my ass in this seat.”

Yay! Now I'm laughing.

Shawk - February 12, 2009 reply

Yes!

Heck. Yes.

How about a sign that says

Ken griffey Jr. had no effect on my choosing to purchase a ticket today.

"I would have bought more tickets to see a better team."

Yeah, but that would be untrue.

All I know is that the only real reason I'm pissed about missing Opening Day this year is because I won't get to see Griffey in his first game back

Going and seeing him in July just won’t be the same

Why does the FO even bother trying to maintain these Garrett Anderson rumors?

I mean, how transparent of a ruse can you get? Like Jack Z is going to come to the people of Seattle saying, “hey, I know we got your hopes up with signing Junior for a farewell year, but…we got Garrett Anderson, formerly of our hated rivals, instead! HUZZAH!”

Silliness. And of course GA is even worse in objective terms than Junior.

Wasn't it Chuck Armstrong who said we were looking at GA?

Oh well, to the general public all those FO guys are probably the same.

At this point this move is similar

to when someone puts their finger 1 inch away from your face and says “I’m not touching you”. ESPN is saying it’s getting closer.

Jed MC - February 12, 2009 reply

I was about to ask whether Jeff made this post based on some news I hadn't seen. Apparently so.

Well, how about the M’s sign Junior and then trade for Nick Johnson to cushion the blow? I’d love to see my sad sack NL team send a good but superfluous player to my sad-sack AL team.

Nick Johnson would be amazing and I would be super-excited

Also Jarrod Washburn would be a great upgrade to the Nationals's rotation

You're not fooling anybody.

I was telling the truth

Isn’t that depressing?

Actually, I think you're exaggerating a bit.

Practically speaking, there isn’t much room for him. Lannan, Hill and Olsen are locks for the rotation. The 4th slot is almost certain to go to Odalis Perez, who was pretty much as good as Washburn last year and a hell of a lot cheaper (on a minor-league deal). For the 5th slot there’s Cabrera or Bergmann, and then you’ve got Jordan Zimmermann and Colin Balester as young guys who will likely be in the majors this year. I don’t see how an expensive Washburn is really preferable to any of these.

The only opening for a mediocrity like Washburn comes with injuries. If Hill isn’t healthy again (he never seems to be), or if Cabrera just has utterly lost it, then maybe there’s a spot for him. But this won’t be known until the season starts at the earliest.

Washburn is much much better than Olsen

Yeah, but at what price?

Look, I’m not saying it’s impossible the Nationals think the way you do and take Washburn. But it would be a stupid move, given that he’s a pricey mediocrity with one year on his contract. We’re not contending this year, and our OF looks to be defensively poor (especially if Dunn moves back to LF, see below), so where’s the margin in it?

I can’t see the FO taking on Washburn when their real goal this season is to see whether any of the young guys or junk they picked up in minor-league deals will shake out and be worth anything. Of course, who knows what will happen?

I'm not saying a straight up deal

That would be retarded. But throw in some money, throw in a bullpen arm, and suddenly you have a reasonable trade proposal.

(and by reasonable I mean dumb but Bowden might bite on it)

I think you underestimated/misapprehend Jim Bowden.

Bowden is not a stupid GM when it comes to trades, for the most part. His one major weakness is, as noted ad nauseum for toolsy outfielders and ex-Reds. His other major weakness is that he seems to be guided largely by opportunism: if he sees a good deal to be made he’ll jump to make it, regardless of how it fits into any long-term plan for the franchise. (Long-term plan? What long-term plan?)

But he doesn’t really get hosed on stupid deals like this.

I think you're overstating how stupid any trade would be

It’s a little bit pointless now, seeing as the premise was that Johnson had been declared surplus to requirements, but if you can swap out a player you don’t plan on using for a consistent, healthy #4 starter and a ‘pen arm without spending any more money, it’s a reasonable idea.

Also keep in mind that the chances of Johnson being 100% healthy are about as good as the chances of an asteroid hitting the earth

Over how long of a time frame?

The next season.

How big of an asteroid?

Meteor Crater.

Which reminds me...

…someday I am going to take a vacation to Crater Lake in OR before I die. That place just seems like the coolest natural landmark in the United States, even neater than the Grand Canyon.

Crater Lake is badass

And amazingly blue

Apparently you can get vertigo from staring straight down into it, since it's so ridiculously crystal clear.

I thought the Crater Lake water was overrated.

The Canadian Rockies always blow everything else away.

Denali.

thewyrm - February 12, 2009 reply

Is amazing.

Let's say mid-level, large enough to obliterate a well-developed urban center.

I'm rooting for Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park

Preferably while ESPN is nationally televising a Yankees-Red Sox game.

Making martyrs out of them will only add to the ratings.

Well duh but that's an argument for the trade being balanced

This isn't a hosing.

If Johnson’s a bench player for the Nats, AND stays healthy the whole year, he’s maybe a 1-1.5 WAR player. Washburn’s a little over a 1 WAR pitcher.

Basically, you’re trading a player who has better upside that you can’t really get that upside from, and is a fair question mark to give you ANY upside, for a player with lower upside, but who’s almost a lock to give you that.

I suppose.

But I think adding Washburn would merely be replicating the current outfielder problem with mediocre/question-mark pitchers: the Nats have so many of them right now that I think their goal is to see which might pan out and which ought to be tossed back into the river. Washburn merely creates a logjam that prevents this from happening: he has to be pitched every five days, and he’s not going to provide anything so explosively great that he’ll justify his presence on his own terms.

Also, doesn’t Washburn have a limited no-trade? Or am I hallucinating?

You betcha

And why would he waive it to go to the Washington Nationals, of all teams?

Kick him in the nuts until he agrees

I imagine you'd have to pay him a bonus equal to about what's left on his salary to get him to agree.

Or you could say 'but in the Nationals org, you have a chance of being a starting pitcher again'

And glare at him a lot.

And tell him Kenji will catch all his games if he stays.

Oh noes! says Rotoworld:

According to the Washington Post, the Nationals will play Adam Dunn in left field if Nick Johnson is healthy enough to start at first base.
Johnson told reporters Wednesday that he’d seek a trade rather than accept a bench role, but apparently that won’t be an issue. What will be an issue is that the Nationals have Josh Willingham, Elijah Dukes, Lastings Milledge and Austin Kearns in the outfield along with Dunn. Regardless of where Dunn plays, a trade to lessen the logjam seems likely.

OH NOES DROWNING IN OUTFIELDERS

HELP ELIJAH DUKES’ TUBE SOCKS ARE SUFFOCATING ME.

bahahahahahahahaha

The simple truth is that Bowden is going to be forced to either release outright or trade a couple of these guys for pennies on the dollar

This is what you get for not having any long-term plan.

I want Ryan Langerhans please

Sadly, he's not one of the problems, since he has a minor-league deal

You’re going to have to eat Josh Willingham and/or Austin Kearns, my friend!

lol silva is fat

Even when done ironically, it still seems cheap and played-out.

Man, we really ran that Silva-fat meme into the ground in a hurry, didn’t we?

Three more years!

Roy Scheider: "We're gonna need a bigger meme."

I can't wait for this year's ironic Silva's So Thin meme

Not to mention the eventual lol Silva's fat again meme in 2010.

I'm going with Silva's At A Weight That He Can Live With

I want him to get arrested and deported so I do not even have to think about him.

Perhaps we should call him Candylad

He’s a lad made of candy.

[ultra-obscure Pavement reference here]

Lookout Landing is a machine for destroying jokes

The whole internet is really.

Perhaps you could make up the difference in ticket sales alone.

I'd just like to point out that this is all Graham's fault

He knows why.

Jeff Nye - February 12, 2009 reply

C'mon, don't be all coy and cryptic on us.

Well, he is getting what he asked for a long time ago...

Speaking of another dead meme...

Hey, we might as well use the picture while we still can.

Everyday for the next six months?

We'll have pictures of him in a 2009 M's uni soon

I am glad that at the very least we explored nearly every other option before resorting to this.

It would have been horribly demoralizing to see him sign a multi-year deal back in December but at least now we can still delude ourselves into thinking that Armstrong didn’t have nearly as much to do with this as he could have.

I have no issue with this. I trust our manager is intelligent enough to know the shortcomings

of our roster. The only issue I had with bringing Griffey back was that he could take ABs from younger players. However, if Wak can work it right, Clement will catch on days where Griffey is DHing vs righties.

And on days where lefties are on the mound, Griffey can ride the pine while Clement DHs, and Joh catches.

I suppose you can make an argument that Wlad will have ABs eaten, but if Wlad Balentein cannot win a starting job over Endy Chavez, do I really care if he’s getting ABs at DH?? The answer is no.

Rudy4three - February 12, 2009 reply

Getting Griffey pretty much guarantees Wlad has to go away

There’s no way we carry Griffey, Chavez, and Wlad on the same team

Why not. Griffey is a lefty DH vs RHP and emergency outfielder. Wlad and Chavez share LF

Rudy4three - February 12, 2009 reply

There's only 5 bench spots

You’ve got three bench locks in Johjima, Chavez, and Cedeno then one of Sweeney/Shelton/Morse, then one of Morse/Burke/Wlad/Corona with Corona having the upper edge.

So there’s an outside possibility there but I don’t see it as particularly likely

Griffey is presumably coming to DH

Given five bench spots, Wlad still fits. (Clement/Cedeno/Corona/Shelton/Balentien)

Platoon!

God willing

ningwers - February 12, 2009 reply

Whatever god we personally believe in all abandoned us the moment he signed.

GMZ quit?

It's just not that bad

Seems to make sense

Against righties, Clement can catch and Griffey can DH, and against lefties, Johjima can catch and Clement can DH. Then work a platoon in LF as well.

What if our ass starting pictures are starting against a LHS?

We lose

What?

Edgar for Pres - February 13, 2009 reply

I'd guess Wlad would get some DHing vs LHP

I have no idea why my brain would not allow that to work

I see now I had Clement being both the starting catcher and the starting DH

Dumbass

Swap Cedeno with Betancourt on that bench and it looks workable to me.

That's the best bench we've had in a long bloody time

So go out and appease the outraged bloggers by getting Nick Johnson...

Assuming a 5-man bench (and an 11-man pitching staff):

Vs. RHP (not in batting order)

1) Ichiro (RF)
2) Gutz (CF)
3) Branyan/Griffey* (LF)
4) N. Johnson (1B)
5) Lopez (2B)
6) Yuni (SS)
7) Beltre (3B)
8) Griffey/Branyan (DH)
9) Clement ©

Bench: Cedeno, Chavez, Joh, Corona/Shelton/Sweeney, Balentien

(*you know as well as I do that the prima donna isn’t going to primarily DH)

Vs. LHP (not in batting order)

1) Ichiro (RF)
2) Gutz (CF)
3) Wlad (LF)
4) N. Johnson (1B)
5) Lopez (2B)
6) Yuni (SS)
7) Beltre (3B)
8) Griffey** (DH)
9) Joh ©

Bench: Cedeno, Chavez, Clement, Corona/Shelton/Sweeney, Branyan

(**you know as well as I do that the prima donna isn’t going to sit all the time vs. lefties — but put Wlad at DH and Endy Chavez in LF when he does sit)

With Branyan being able to play 3B and LF at least somewhat respectably, that does still give them some options. With Cedeno on board, I suppose they could try to swing a deal to keep Corona stashed in the minors, and keep Shelton or Sweeney. Shelton could be the emergency catcher, too.

Why bat Beltre so low?

hcoguy - February 12, 2009 reply

To elaborate,

I would not want the pop-up twins batting behind the two best OBP threats on the team.

hcoguy - February 12, 2009 reply

See where he says

“not in batting order”

Yeah I'm stupid.

I guess it looked like what I would expect them to do if they had those players last year.

hcoguy - February 12, 2009 reply

Especially against left handers

That's incredibly terrible.

Griffey in LF against RHP is literally a replacement-level player. Griffey in LF against LHP is Richie Sexson or Jose Vidro, except worse.

I mean, really, that's Johnny Mac level stupid to keep Chavez on the bench and play Griffey in the OF.

DH against LHP? LF against RHP? Basically, Griffey has NEGATIVE value- DH’ing Junior against LHP is like making Yuni your DH.

No surprise.

Softy is beside himself with excitement.

Secretly I'm really really excited about this

I am not secretly really excited about this

I really hope he doesn’t suck, but it’s going to be sweet to see him put on a Mariners uniform again even if he does kind of suck.

I'm willing to let emotion take over here

Griffey isn’t very good, but neither is Wlad or Endy Chavez, and I’d much rather watch Griffey then those two assholes

I think I'd enjoy watching Endy Chavez take home runs away from people in the playoffs

I haven't enjoyed it so far.

I'd much rather watch Endy Chavez play the outfield than Griffey.

I need to refresh to confirm it, but I hope my comment wasn't late

Sweet

Even though Chavez is a better player than Griffey at this point

and a far better outfielder, I’d still rather see Griffey.

Even if he sucks watching Griffey patrol the outfield will put a smile on my face.

I'm glad you don't run the team.

I'd just rather see Griffey take ABs from Chavez than Clement

I have to figure Griffey is going to get a substantial amount of time in LF no matter who is running the team

False dilemma

I'm not sure of that

I imagine the rough PT distribution will be 1/4 of each
1/4 of the time (vs Lefties)
C Johjima
DH Clement
LF Chavez

1/4 of the time
C Clement
DH Griffey
LF Chavez

1/4 of the time
C Johjima
DH Griffey
LF Chavez

1/4 of the time
C Johjima
DH Clement
LF Griffey

actually that just proves you are right

I'd be shocked if Griffey sees a lot of time in the OF

He probably platoons with Johjima.

I just don't see Johjima exclusively playing against Lefthanders though

Especially if Clement doesn’t make any strides with his defense

The only analysis that I trust weighs in on this matter.

:(

Take salary out of the equation and 75/76 > 69 and your dude takes it every time

That game also Ranked Ibanez is a "93" defender

and Bryan LaHair is a ++ CFer

who I have led to a long successful career in many simulations

:)
:)
;)

So it looks like Clement got injected with something in 2018

That's the year Graham wears down his defenses.

Is a 1.86 career FIP good?

I wonder what that would look like?

*defences

Aumont, with those numbers, is arguably the best pitcher of all time.

Arguably.

cwel87 - February 16, 2009 reply

The problem with BBM is that strikeout pitchers can't throw many innings

They need to fix that.

JI - February 16, 2009 reply

Now it's not a secret

a deal is imminent pending a physical.

Stone says

So there's literally no one better, huh?

Edgar for Pres - February 12, 2009 reply

You are missing the point.

I’m a little excited to see him back. Just to be optimistic, maybe this will work out just fine.

Huh?

Edgar for Pres - February 13, 2009 reply

I should have said there are people better but come on, this could be more fun

I grew up in New Hampshire and Griffey is the origin of all things I love in Seattle sports.

John Morgan - February 12, 2009 reply

Randy Johnson for me.

I suppose my favorite part about this

is if Griffey somehow plays well this year we get to bring him back every season for the rest of his career until bottom falls out.

This is a definite problem

Like it was for Edgar?

We were obligated to hold onto Edgar though

Because he was already on the team. We don’t HAVE to bring Griffey back today, we just want to

In other words

Bring Griffey back today and that’s awesome, but if you don’t my life doesn’t change.

If we didn’t bring Edgar back after 2003 and he signed with whoever, I would have been totally crushed

Welcome Home Griff!

Put up another .272/.379/.841 line vs. RHP like you did last year!

Griffey slugged .841 against right handed pitching?

I sure wouldn't mind that.

.Taylor - February 12, 2009 reply

I will be sure to pass this along to Ken

Nah

Just .462

Welcome to Lookout Landing,

we appreciate the use of the reply button in order to facilitate better dialogue.

For future reference to all new people.

Seems like

nobody will reply to Ibanez and Griffey having virtually the same SLG% vs. RHP last year.

What point are you trying to make?

Yes, Griffey is useful as the lefty half of a DH platoon. That about covers it.

Seems more than

“useful”.

He didn't actually slug .800

So that

really was a typo by me? Damnit!

An .841 OPS out of a platooned DH isn't really more than useful.

You forgot to calculate w♥bp

Perhaps if he was on the other side of the platoon

Facing nothing but left handed pitching

I'm confused about what you're trying to say here.

I think he's saying the right-handed part of the platoon is easier to find.

R.J. Anderson - February 12, 2009 reply

Yep - it's not a platoon opposite Griff

It can be a combination of Johjima, Lopez, Sweeney, Burke, Morse, Tui, Shelton… Endless possibilities depending on the roster flexibility and who makes the club. It’s not llike you’re dedicating two DHs to a platoon here. You’re just feeding Griff 400+ ABs vs RHP.

That does nothing to change that a slightly above average wOBA against RHP, as a DH

doesn’t qualify for much more than “useful” in my book.

Slightly above average....

because every year other than last year was the aberration?

No, but every year other than last year, he was younger than he was last year.

And relevantly, he will be even older this year!

Matthew - February 13, 2009 reply

Please look at his 3-year platoon splits as well.

Also: he wasn’t very good in 2006, either. So I don’t buy “the knee injury being healed will magically turn this into 2005, or even 2007”.

He could break out to a 2 WAR year. So could Branyan or Shelton, though.

Also relevent:

The knee injury he had in early April of ‘06. Also, his .282 BABiP against Righties is probably a bit low, though he’s never been at all consistent with his BABiPs going back to the mid-90’s. My guess would be that healthy legs would at least help him get around .300 BABiP, if nothing else.

Wouldn't you agree that given his prior history, the chance that Griffey suffers another leg injury

in 2009 is pretty high? And if so, shouldn’t we account for the possibility that said injury would affect his production, as it has in the past?

Matthew - February 13, 2009 reply

He won't be fielding (hopefully)

So the chance is lessened somewhat

Mariner John - February 13, 2009 reply

As Mariner John says

He won’t be seeing playing time in the outfield more than once a week, and when he does, we should be well assured that he will be replaced defensively by the 7th or 8th inning. He didn’t get injured in 2007, and in 2008 the knee was about as random an event as is likely to happen, so he’s got two straight seasons without having his legs explode on the way to the batter’s box.

So because his knee injury was "random"

(which is a massively weird argument to make), you are free to ignore it?

And a whopping two straight seasons means he’s going to stay healthy, fur sure, in 2009?

Your arguments are repetitive.

Matthew - February 15, 2009 reply

My arguments are repetitive?

Compared to: “He’s an injury risk because he has lot’s of prior injuries and he’s old”? The fact that he hasn’t incurred a serious injury while actually playing over the last 2 years is a positive sign. The fact that his knee injury was the result of banging it against a foot locker and the fact that that particular incident is not likely to reoccur isn’t very weird.

I’m not saying there’s no chance of him getting injured, I’m saying there is a decreased chance of incurring an injury.

And just to let you know, I’ve made the “He’s less likely to get injured DHing” argument a grand total of once.

Malcontent1 - February 16, 2009 reply

Not here

to argue that point.

Con - February 14, 2009 reply

Correct me if I am wrong, but your argument amounts to this;

Griffey, as a DH against RH pitchers, is likely to put up an OPS somewhere in the neighborhood of .850. I would also assume that you expect him to do so in enough plate appearances for his contribution to be truly meaningful, say somewhere in the neighborhood of 350-400 PA. Correct?

If this is in fact your argument, you must take Griffey’s recent (and not-so-recent) injury history into account. There is a very real chance that injury will prevent Griffey from amassing enough PAs to make a real impact, hitting well enough to make a real impact or some combination of the two. You can’t ignore it and assume he’ll be healthy all season, because there’s valid reason to believe that this will not be the case.

Not an argument

Just posting numbers from his injured 2008 season

Con - February 14, 2009 reply

That season happened, though.

So did the ones before it. This is a pattern.

Edgar for Pres - February 14, 2009 reply

A player on the DL doesn't hurt the team (at least in this case)

I’d assume if he’s hurt his PA will be cut back more than in the past.

Aside from the fact that he's getting paid.

Edgar for Pres - February 15, 2009 reply

A small amount of money doesn't really matter right now

I’m assuming the mariners payroll budget is still working under the “If you don’t use it, you lose it philosophy.”

OK, but getting back to Junior's value

DHs as a whole hit .255/.338/.433 last year. (granted, a bad year for DHs)

Griffey hit .272/.379/.462 against righties last year (in a hitter’s park).

He can’t play the field, he can’t run the bases and he can’t hit lefties, but he can hit righties fairly well (but still not to a great degree). This simply isn’t that valuable of a player. “Useful” is about as good as it gets.

Another thing that we need to remember is that Griffey’s one skill — hitting righties — is going to be easily neutralized in late innings. A LOOGY turns our DH into Willie Bloomquist.

Bloomquist could run

This signing is great news for Mike Sweeney

So

More than useful than the average DH? Given 400+ ABs

Con - February 14, 2009 reply

Take a look at this;

DHs with 300+ PA in 2008. Ignore Vlad, Garret Anderson, and the three Royals, as they saw significant playing time in the field. Take a look at those wOBAs.

Now look at Griffey’s projections for 2009:

CHONE: .332
Marcel: .330
Oliver: .354
Bill James: .354

Even the wildly optimistic Bill James and Oliver projections have Griffey as a slightly above average Major League hitter next season. Not DH-hitter. The more (historically) accurate CHONE sees him as a below average hitter next season. Keep in mind also that most of the other players on that list had well over 400 PA at DH.

Griffey isn’t likely to be good, but he’s not likely to be terrible either. He’s likely to be useful. That’s not an insult, it’s the most likely scenario.

What's the point of that list

Aubrey Huff and Jack Cust are lefties that don’t hit righties very well, Huff having a good year against them. Milton Bradley had a ridiculously lucky .396 BABiP, and otherwise is very similar to Griffey in the always injured-doesn’t hit lefties that well, category. The problem with Marcel, CHONE, and Oliver is that they’re all computer projections that don’t take into account the possibility of a player recovering from injury OR being platooned. Also, Bill James isn’t wildly optimistic, judging from the number of at bats he’s assigning Griffey (412, with 58 walks), it seems he is giving Griffey an 85/15 split instead of the 70/30 split that the computer projections are giving him. Lastly, please give me a link to CHONE, Marcel, Oliver, and James projections from previous seasons, as I have had trouble looking for them myself and would love to be able to verify that CHONE is the best predictor.

Malcontent1 - February 14, 2009 reply

The point of that list

was to point out that Con’s assertion that Griffey would be better than the average DH, given the numbers he used himself, was erroneous.

OK, I didn't quite catch the point the first time

I would still like to know where I can find older projections for the projections systems to verify their accuracy.

Malcontent1 - February 14, 2009 reply

Honestly I don't know the answer to that.

I trust CHONE more than I trust the Bill James projections based on what I’ve observed personally over the last few years and the opinions of people that are smarter than me.

Aubrey Huff and Jack Cust are lefties that don’t hit righties very well

???

JI - February 14, 2009 reply

Cust and Huff both hit righties much better than lefties.

Also, Milton Bradley had a LD% over 25, so that BABIP isn’t all that lucky.

Teej - February 14, 2009 reply

That was a typo,

I meant they don’t hit lefties that well. As for bradley, .396 would be 30 points high even if you did LD+12. If you look at xBABiP he should have been .334 (although they say his BABiP was .375).

Malcontent1 - February 14, 2009 reply

Yeah, Bradley was definitely lucky to a certain degree.

I just wanted to point out that he was legitimately awesome at the plate, as well.

Teej - February 14, 2009 reply

Assuming he's used perfectly, yes, more useful than the average DH.

But the average DH isn’t really all that valuable. Especially when he can be rendered usless in high-leverage situations by bringing in a lefty.

Assuming opposing managers have a clue, Griffey won’t be facing many righties late in close games, which limits the already small amount of value he gives the Mariners.

Teej - February 14, 2009 reply

By my crude calcuations,

The average DH in 2008 was worth about 0.4 WAR. Four runs.

Taking Griffey’s 2008 numbers only against righties and giving him roughly 400 at-bats in that favorable situation and pulling him out of the outfield, that’s about 1 WAR. And that’s if everything works out as planned.

Guys who can’t play the field and aren’t Edgar Martinez or David Ortiz just aren’t that valuable. I’m not saying Griffey is useless . . . but he’s pretty damn close.

That said, I’ll still smile like an idiot every time he comes to bat. I absolutely love that man.

Teej - February 15, 2009 reply

Just short of Raul's .470

Welcome Home!

I thought Ken Griffey Jr. lived in Florida.

He does indeed

I want to see Griffey play as much as possible

why? If he plays a whole lot it means he’s A. at least kind of effective and B. not hurt.

Also, I just love Griffey.

I think Dave put it the best when he summarized next week's storylines:

The Kid returns an adult: Griffey is older, wiser
More than just a sentimental move: Griffey to provide veteran left-handed power in the middle of the lineup
Seattle welcomes a grown up Junior
Return of the Prodigal Son: a long journey brings the Kid back to his roots
Once the carefree Kid, Griffey returns to mentor a young Mariner team
Healthy and with something to prove, Griffey seeks to rekindle flame
In a sport wracked by steroid scandals, Griffey’s joy is a fan’s last refuge
Junior moves in with his parents, to the house he built
After years of horror, Griffey gives M’s fans something to smile about
Griffey brings back memories of the glory years
Junior looks to contribute in different way
Familiar smile brings light to a dark clubhouse
Hall of Fame career that began here may come to a fitting close
Warm welcome helped convince Griffey to return
"I always hoped to return to Seattle," Griffey says.
Griffey fails physical, deal to return appears dead

.Taylor - February 12, 2009 reply

Or DMZ

Goddammit. Or DMZ.

.Taylor - February 13, 2009 reply

Please none of the last one.

The last one would be all kinds of hilarious.

Yes it would.

I was crushed when a failed physical killed an Omar return.

I was too.

Especially when the backup trade was even WORSE.

God I hated Bavasi's "Plan B..."

(and C and D and E….)

And Player A

I was happy

but then the replacement trade was worse

Wait, Vizquel had a chance to return?

When was this?

December of 2003

He failed his physical so we signed Aurilia instead.

Not the whole picture...

They were going to trade Guillen for Vizquel, but when Vizquel didn’t pass his physical they backed out of the deal and traded Guillen for garbage and then signed Aurilia. It was right around that time that I started reading/posting to blogs so I remember it “fondly”

Ramontiago != garbage

Ahhhh, yes

I forgot that Omar wasn’t a free agent at the time.

katal - February 13, 2009 reply

It's mentioned in passing in the second paragraph.

Harball Times link.

Kermit. - February 12, 2009 reply

I think the last one would break my poor fragile heart.

Someone pointed this out to me that made sense; we are going to suck either way next season (despite what we all want to believe, rebuilding is going to take time), so might as well suck with Griffey. I don’t care if he’s another in the line of worthless DH’s we’ve since Edgar retired, I’ll be cheering maniacally after every strikeout/groundout.

We're not going to suck next year

This team is not as bad as you think it is.

You'll be cheering for strikeouts?

Real fans don't cheer for the best player in team history to strike out.

They've cheered A-Rod's strikeouts plenty og times.

This is my fear, our last memory of Griffey will be of him looking like a giant bag of sand.

Similarly, I was pretty excited the SF signed RJ, but now I don’t know if I want to watch him completely fall apart.

InSpokane - February 12, 2009 reply

I worded that oddly.

I mean, even if he has the worst season of his career, I’m pretty sure many people including myself will still love him and it won’t tarnish his reputation to Seattle fans that much. Rather him failing than someone like Sexson of last season or Johjima.

I'm still not sure why watching Griffey fail would make you happy though

I’m not trying to pick on you, I’m just not sure what watching Griffey flail at 86-mph junk twice before striking out looking will do to enhance his reputation among even the most diehard Griffeyites.

Heh, I don't mean his likely shortcomings are going to excite me.

But I won’t mind them. At all.

This is a completely rational line of thinking.

Fanhood isn't always rational

This.

It’s GRIFFEY, damn it! I’ll always love him and your stats can’t take that away from me!

Personally I find that depressing

and the bar’s already set awfully low after watching him strike out to end last season’s ALDS.

I died a little inside watching that

Nostalgic fanboy here.

And I am ecstatic that we’re bringing The Kid (The Old Man?) back where he belongs. I stopped caring about baseball after Lou Piniella left (coinciding with me finishing up the final stages of puberty and turning to football to make me feel more manly), and now that Griffey’s back, I have an excuse to deck out my old school mid-90s memorabilia back when we had that badass navy blue/turquoise color scheme.

The Typical Idiot Fan - February 12, 2009 reply

If Joe Torre -> Dodgers was the worst kept secret in baseball.

What’s this? The worst inevitability in baseball?

RRS wants it to happen.

So does Clement. and Felix.

Well if Jeffie wants it it's a-OK in my book

I'm worried that this relationship is getting unhealthy.

Graham should shot a famous person so he notices him.

I am

Nothing,
You are wind and water and sky,
Jeffie.
Tell me, Jeffie,
How I can earn you love.
I would swim oceans,
I would move mountains,
I would do anything for you.
What do you want me to do?

He has a list

Really cause the only people that I want to have sex with are Felix and Carlson

god what a slut haha ;)

This comment is strange on many levels.

It's how I roll yo.

It's fine by me

Makes sense, Junior was Jeffie's idol growing up.

oh, and apparently

so does Jay

Wasn't it Jay who said in another interview

that Griffey probably should be doing much more than DHing?

Actually...

Quite the contrary. At FanFest 2008, Buhner recognized that Griffey would be best served in the DH role, and that his fielding days were over, even if Griffey was too stubborn to admit it.

Whoops a doodle.

That’s what I was getting at, “should” should read “shouldn’t”

No shit

HAHAHAHAHA

The thought of Griffey hangin’ w/the Buhners at their place (listening to the radio interview) just cracks me up.

On a positive note, I’m sure they could work him into the commercials this year. That wouldn’t suck…

Have him dusting off his old recliner, with the old NES covered in dust...

Kermit. - February 12, 2009 reply

Griffey teaches Ichiro how to be a judge in the Kangaroo Court.

The photo caption is great.

Back in 1998, a more slender, smiling Ken Griffey Jr. graced Seattle’s Spring Training.

That makes me worry if he will be out of shape this year.

But I guess players probably naturally grow wider as they get older.

He supposedly lost 10-15 pounds after the knee surgury

especially if you have a natural bootay.

I'm sure...

…Ichiro is probably dying a little bit inside, too.

This article hints at it, and I don’t have time to find anything more clear, but Ichiro has said he badly wanted to play with Griffey in Seattle at some point.

Thanks for posting that article.

It was a great read from the past.

appleshampoo - February 12, 2009 reply

I had forgotten how uncertain everyone was about Ichiro

Corco loving the "veteran leadership". Cmon Roy find a better reason.

Rudy4three - February 12, 2009 reply

And Corco's down with it too

So any doubts I had are now negated

hey!

Shannon Drayer’s got the blog up and running.

I'm so glad KIRO picked up Drayer.

EnglishMariner - February 12, 2009 reply

This is going to become a meme if we try hard enough.

identifying something as a meme before it comes one is like giving yourself a nickname

That's quite easy to do actually

So's killing a hobo

doesn’t mean you should do it.

It's fun

When I moved out here I introduced myself as “Jim” to a whole class and now in one of my classes I go by Jim.

It’s hilarious because the whole time you’re sitting there thinking “bahahaha my name’s not Jim! Suckers!”

Like how you're NOT Corco?

Slurvey - February 12, 2009 reply

That's not a nickname though

that’s a deception done for a laugh. A nickname’s something like The Bronx Bomber or The Kid or something.

Or if your name is Corcoran and you go by Corco

That was not by choice

I’ve always much preferred Corky or Corkscrew but Corco has stuck around on the internets

This last question is the most worrisome for me. In left field he really doesn’t block anyone (young player).

Suck it Wlad.

I feel that you need to redirect your rage back at Tui.

He might not block anyone

But he also won’t catch anything

Woooooooo

Think of the GIFs!

Griff in LF might actually make us pine for Raul’s defense.

They wouldn't let that happen would they?

WOULD THEY?

What would we call that gif section?

Ken Griffey Jr

Is “The Natural”?

I had that poster as a kid

"Why People Shouldn't Think With Their Heart"

Is that better or worse

Than pumping blood with my brain?

ding ding ding

We'd have to wait for the title of the first article praising his defense

"Leadership Personified"

"This blog will be a little different from my previous one in that there will be a comment section."

Big mistake there Shannon…

appleshampoo - February 12, 2009 reply

The big "remains to be seen" thing for me

is that when this does come down, will the Griffey that shows up to sate the Bring Back Griffey Brigade be a more open, friendly Griffey with the press, or will he still be the paranoid, thin-skinned, don’t-want-to-talk-to-reporters-I-don’t-trust Griffey he was when he left?

The biggest thing that worries me is...

If we’re “accidental” contenders or even a .500 team people are going to say it’s because of Griffey.

Slurvey - February 12, 2009 reply

He'd likely be contributing...

…so WTF is wrong with giving him credit for helping?

Seriously?

If he’s putting up a .230/.240/.250 line and they’re doing this in spite of that, then, yeah, by all means pile on.

But having Griffey on this team actually could help them, even if he’s not a >0 WAR player. He could both hurt and help the clubhouse — I am not kidding when I say that Ichiro will probably benefit the most from this move. It’ll simultaneously relieve him of some pressure to be the clubhouse leader and challenge him to earn some of that spotlight back (which Ichiro really thrives on).

The problem as I see it

is that the media would view Griffey as the sole reason for the team turning things around so quickly. No one will give GMZ credit for massively overhauling the defense and picking up contributors like Branyan. They’ll give a majority of the credit to one of the least talented players on the roster.

aye.

But does it matter who gets the credit in the media if the end result works, and GMZ is making good decisions?

Really, who cares what the fans and media think is the reason for the 2009 World Champion Mariners, if Griffey getting undue credit doesn’t change how GMZ evaluates him?

When the majority of the fanbase thinks the worng things and the writers agree with them it can cause serious problems.

Griffey for a three-year extension!

see "GMZ is making good decisions"

I'd be more worried about Howie and Chuck.

Plus, myabe Griffey decides to hang 'em up before he completely craps out

see: Favre, Brett and Elway, John

oooooops too late

It could be argued that Griffey completely crapped out last season.

Yeah, though he hasn't gone totally Sexsoniriffic or Vidrotastic yet.

See Dodgers; Depotesta, Paul

DePodesta did let Beltre walk

Though that may have been a financing problem…
Though they did later sign JD Drew to a very similar contract to what Beltre got.

Personally I don't care

I’m just responding to what Slurvey and Paul brought up.

Because that would be the worst kind of results-based analysis

The M’s were horrid in 2008.
They bring in Griffey.
The M’s contend in 2009.

There’s almost no way that if this scenario happens that it would be entirely because of Griffey, but that won’t be what the media reports and what the fans then think. And that sets back what the M’s are trying to do, because then when Griffey goes away in 2010 and the M’s start slow, everyone will say BRING BACK GRIFFEY all over again.

Also I see it if the M's are not doing well

The media will blame everybody but Griffey. The media will be all over Griffey when he signs and we’ll be hearing a lot of Griffey stories and If Branyan hits 20 HR and Griffey hits 19 they’ll make it so Griffey will look better still because his HR are worth more somehow.

Slurvey - February 12, 2009 reply

His home runs all smell like 1995

Playing a 0 WAR player hurts this team, though

Shelton’s not a < 0 WAR player- yes, even though he’s a righty, he could help the team getting a lot of DH ABs and spelling Branyan. Wlad probably isn’t either. Even Princess Willie was a > 0 WAR player (barely).

Going into the “well, he could improvechemistry” arguments goes well into the Bavasi-era mode of making player personnel decisions based on abstractions nobody has a good handle on, I think,

I don't disagree...

I’m just saying that there are unique cases where a player actually DOES help chemistry — clearly accompanied by reasonable amounts of talent — and that has some value. This is one of those cases.

Certainly winning is the most decisive factor in building chemistry, I get that. But this team before Griffey didn’t have the talent to be considered a legitimate contender.

Besides – while we in the blogs accept the intricacies, importance and value of overhauling the OF defense, (as well as the other small-but-mighty moves he made) were the team successful w/o acquiring Griffey, I don’t think even then Zduriencik’s job in this area would be widely credited. They’d find something else like Yuni’s glove or Lopez’s non-second-half collapse to harp about.

Why are you sure adding Griffey improves the chemistry?

There's a Bonds steroids joke to be made here

Because real baseball players are more like the idiots in the blogosphere than the statheads?

Isn't clubhouse chemsitry more about how well the players get along?

Sure, it might not matter during Spring Training or what have you, but once the grind sets in, that’s what more important rather than who you are, from my experiences.

The 2004 Mariners got along great.

Dan Wilson, Edgar, Boone, Moyer… and as we all know, they were terrible. This is why I talked about “abstractions nobody has a good handle on”. Chemistry is so much of a propter hoc thing (You had a great record! You must have had awesome chemistry!) that I think speculating what works and what doesn’t just doesn’t get us anywhere, beyond the blatantly obvious (a team of axe murderers might not have great chemistry).

Don't take my word for it...

…take Drayer’s:

“Take the words "clubhouse cancer” out of your vocabulary when talking about Griffey. The popular accusation is and always has been simply untrue. I covered Jr. for his last year and a half here and never saw it. Furthermore, every former teammate of his I have talked to, to a man agrees that he was not a problem, in fact most have said he was the best teammate they have ever played with."

If the players he’ll be playing with are legitimately excited to be playing with him, it certainly can help the chemistry in that clubhouse when the grind sets in. They have someone to turn to and someone to provide that leadership enough to take the edge off. Someone they respect.

I'm not surprised by that, given that he's spent most of his life in a baseball clubhouse.

--shrug--

I still think banking on anyone to provide chemistry is rash.

And like I said...

even when Griffey was at his peak from 1992-1999, the Mariners basically pencil out to a .500 team, maybe a handful of games over. If Griffey IS an awesome teammate, all this demonstrates is “awesome teammate” does not turn you into the Yankees or Braves.

And really who cares about chemistry...

Chicken/egg, etc…

And, yeah, if he sucks and they’re still contending (and he’s taking PT away from better talent), like I said in my post — by all means pile on the loathing.

But if they ARE contending and he’s putting up decent numbers – no need to discredit him for contributing. Even if it’s more because Washburn, Morrow, and Silva all have ERAs below 3.5 thanks to stellar OF defense…

That's why Jeff doesn't deserve to be paid.

joof - February 13, 2009 reply

To me it's probably going to be huge distarction

I mean if we want to use him properly

he’s going to have to agree to a lot of things that may step on his ego.

Wait.

Griffey PLAYED on Mariner teams in 1998 and 1999 that basically weren’t very good, and he was still a great player then, far better than he is now.

If he isn’t pulling the guys over the finish line then, or in Cincinnati during the years he wasn’t a cripple on the DL, or even in Chicago in the ALDS, why is that going to happen now?

Basically, Griffey as a player is ~Branyan or Shelton (1-1.5 WAR as a DH). You have to come up with some pretty strong intangibles to consider that his contribution something that pushes the M’s to “legitimate contender”.

I don't think it does push them to "legitimate contender"

I just don’t think it hurts their chances as much as some other people do. If somehow he helps other players play more to their potential, then that might be something intangible. But I wouldn’t go that far.

I’m not saying “WOO HOO WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS” with this move. I’m not. I’m just saying it MIGHT NOT hurt the team as much as some people think it does.

And I accept that my acceptance of Griffey is completely irrational.

And not popular around these parts.

I think there might be a silent majority who would agree with you.

I think “chemistry” might be the wrong word, though. “Excitability” might be better. Griffey is going to have a psychological accountability effect on the clubhouse. He is an icon in baseball. We are already seeing it work with the anticipation these guys are having to be able to play around Griffey, the player who they grew up idolizing.

Basically, Griffey is like a war general that everyone admires and listens to. Because of this, they are more motivated and focused on accomplishing their goal. With some of the relaxed attitude Ichiro has mentioned going on in the clubhouse, having the presence of Griffey around will keep players more accountable. It’s not a measurable effect, but there will be players who will want to impress their boyhood idol. Whether the added pressure improves their performance or hurts it is another question, but the added focus will be there.

I, too, have an irrational love for Griffey and will only see the positives in his coming back to Seattle. I just want him to DH and play the OF on a seldom basis.

Basically, when it comes to chemistry...

… unless it’s like someone who is REALLY obviously the kind of guy who ticks teammates off or just gives teams headaches in the media, or is a saint, I tend to think it’s like baseball managers- there are extreme examples at either end, but in most cases, meh- so you’re better off selecting for talent, not trying to chase after “chemistry”.

Intangibles:

Before Griffey
Brian Anderson .230/.267/.424, 4.7% BB, 23.6% K
Paul Konerko .214/.314/.349, 11.4% BB, 17% K
Alexei Ramirez .309/.330/.471, 3.1% BB, 12.9% K
Carlos Quentin .283/.380/.555, 10.8% BB, 13.8% K
Orlando Cabrera .267/.324/.351, 8.2% BB, 9.8% K

After Griffey
Brian Anderson .238/.289/.476, 6.7% BB, 22% K
Paul Konerko .294/.405/.622, 15% BB, 12.7% K
Alexei Ramirez .262/.299/.480, 4.2% BB, 10.7% K
Carlos Quentin .308/.447/.637, 14.9% BB, 14.9% K
Orlando Cabrera .311/.354/.410, 6.6% BB, 9.5% K

It’s not luck or small sample size, it’s intangibles!

Holy crap let's sign 3 Griffeys

So our equivalent to those players are...

Franklin Gutierrez
Jeff Clement
Jose Lopez
Endy Chavez
and Yuni Betancourt
….
Make it happen Griffey.

I think Russell Branyan

Is more similar to Paul Konerko, I would LOVE to see Endy Chavez morph into Carlos Quentin though.

Dye tanked in the second half

Clearly he’s a malcontent.

He couldn't stand sharing the spotlight of old, constantly injured former great

This isn't official yet? Come on Z, get this over with already.

Look, it's this year's version of the Bedard trade!

You're telling me

Just like last year, I’ve been logging onto USSM and LL several times a day from work for the past month, checking to see if a deal has happened yet.

We're not get raped up the butthol with this move

I mean the part where we want to kill ourselves just to not hear about this any more.

though personally, I think we’re going to flip Griffey for Derek Lillibridge.

I hate Erika

So much

Just so you know,

jokes about Erik Bedard being a woman are not viewed in great esteem here except in the most extreme ironic sense.

III think if people took the time to learn about that situation

they wouldn’t hate him.

psst buddy!

his name is erik bedard.

Really? I heard he has girly parts

Way to put her in her place, though.

I assume you are new.

So I will explain how we feel about Eric* Bedard here, without being a jerk. So we were initially very pissed off about the trade because we traded a starting CF, our set up guy/Left-handed one out guy, and three top pitching prospects for one pitcher. But then we commended Bedard for pulling himself out of the game without injuring himself further and putting up bad results. In comparison, Miguel Batista tried to tough out his injury, and continued to get shelled. So in general, it is better that Bedard to let his trainer know he was hurt so he wouldn’t further injure himself (even though it seemed like he was Mr. Glass last season) and put up terrible results, rather than hurt the team by keeping himself in the game. Same goes for not going beyond 100 pitches, as you could look up the numbers for an innings eater like Jarrod Washburn, for example, and see they usually don’t have much success.

Eric*?

I thought it was spelt with a c

I guess I was wrong.

I love frog legs. My favorite part is how they bounce in the frying pan.

Sec 108 - February 13, 2009 reply

Dually noted.

I’m just pissed because I was fawning over Adam Jones, and seeing George Sherrill in the All-Star game was an additional kick in the balls.

Fearless Frog - February 13, 2009 reply

Duly*

Fearless Frog - February 13, 2009 reply

Won't happen until Griffey takes a physical and he is unavailable until Monday.

Apparently golfing's more important to him than returning to the team

you were drafted by and played over half your your career for, eh Ken? Wheeeeee!

Well, I should say that golfing's important enough to DELAY his return.

Hug

Joking, Robert...

I'm not.

isn't the Pebble Beach tournament a charity fundraiser?

And probably something he committed to ages ago.

seattlebruin - February 13, 2009 reply

My favorite part is going to be when we find out that we signed Griffey using the Felix extension money.

Sweet Zombie Jesus let it be true

I would thoroughly debate suicide

Your not a real fan

Yore

Scanning my RSS

I can across this and let out a yelp at the 2 years part. Luckily, I see no word anywhere that this is a two year deal coming.

And apparently Griffey will be wearing the fans during those to years.

Congrats to you Griff, may your final tenure in Seattle be injury free, full of homeruns, and surrounded by fans who adorn you. You deserve it.

That egotistical bastard.

It’s not that cold, Junior.

What are you talking about human flesh is far superior to Gortex

InSpokane - February 12, 2009 reply

On the MLB.com site it says

“Griffey and the Mariners are nearing agreement on a one-year contract.” I am not sure even Bavasi would have signed Griffey for more than one year, putting joking aside.

I'm still not happy about this

I would be only if Z was noticeably pissed off and sulked during the press conference

But then he'd be fired on the spot.

He's a professional. He'll come off wonderfully in the press conference

Then Griffey joins the team and one of two things happens:
a) Griffey performs well. Chuck and Howie are vindicated for pushing for Griffey to return to the team. They continue to meddle in GMZ’s affairs.
b) Griffey bombs and the media discusses what a poor decision of Z’s it was to bring him back.

I’m holding out hope that all turns out well, but right now this has the makings of another classic “Let’s Screw Katal” moment.

I know he will but I get the impression that Z has a adorable range of emotions.

I would've gone in a different direction with the pic

I feel dirty

___

The Mariners don't use abbreviations on their uniforms,

I appreciate your pointing that out Robert. In my future endeavors you can rest assured I will strive for greater accuracy.

:)

Just because you don't agree with the team's moves doesn't mean you have to make them out as minor league organization.

It’s that type of negativity that makes people ignore us.

You ended your comment earlier in the subthread with a comma.

The Mariners don’t use abbreviations on their uniforms,.

Also you are a troglodyte.

Takes one to know one you clipboard list of things that are gay, dumb and ugly that are arranged in alphabetical order.

I'm really more of a trapper keeper.

You're*

You + Are = You're

My favorite math equation.

This is a thing of beauty

Why is he wearing #24 and #5?

That's an S twinkletoes.

Is twinkletoes supposed to be an insult?

To a homophobe

Stop being so gay homo

I agree that Nola is the faggiest girl here

I love this

What happens if he if he's mediocre but not disastrous and doesn't want to retire after this season?

He can have a swan song with the Reds!

Our only chance is to win the WS and make him want to retire on top.

Griffey to Seattle? “It’s all rumors.”

I look forward to rooting for Griffey in person again.

I hope he can be good enough to avoid the ire of his modern day detractors, but I wont hold my breath.

Omerta - February 12, 2009 reply

END! END!

That's just media speak till shit actually goes down

I know that

I’m just getting tired of every flipping media outlet in the greater Pacific Northwest region reporting this story every thirty seconds.

And we're just

Getting Started.

ThundaPC - February 12, 2009 reply

As I said, this is v 2.0 of the Bedard trade.

Of course, it could be worse: we could be about to trade Adam Jones again.

translation: I don't know anything about it because I'm busy playing golf. My agent is handling it.

everyone with a brain: well, duh.

So if a deal is going to be made, it will be announced after the weekend.

There is no way they announce a deal and then have to wait 3 days until he is available for a physical. Deals are usually made and the player is there the next day to get the physical to finalize the contract as soon as possible.

I could be wrong, but I do not seeing it happen while Griffey is playing in this tournament. The media would have a field day with him. Think if he gave all these great quotes about being excited to return to Seattle only to fail the physical 2-3 days later.

In other words, it’s likely going to be Monday, at the earliest, that this thing ends.

see it happening*

I wouldn't doubt if we saw a "Griffey, Mariners agree to terms" and the numbers of the agreement pending a physical come out.

Probably no official announcement till Monday, but I suspect we’ll know the details by then.

BrettJMiller - February 13, 2009 reply

Gosh. I wish I got paid for spouting idiocies.

"… about a month ago, they made up their minds they were going for a veteran bat, Abreu, Anderson, Dunn, Griffey ~~- in a lot of ways they are the same guys … on their last legs, so why not go for the one who also brings you emotion and something more … "~~-Softy

hmm. speaking of idiocies.

apparently I keyed a little something extra into that line.

"… about a month ago, they made up their minds they were going for a veteran bat, Abreu, Anderson, Dunn, Griffey – in a lot of ways they are the same guys … on their last legs, so why not go for the one who also brings you emotion and something more … "