Lookout Landing

It sounds awesome.

JonBBT - April 10, 2009 reply

NB: Divergent Opinion

I think the race to create the hoppiest beers has about run its course. This is the equivalent of the ever more scoville unit/ever more garishly named hot sauce craze of a few years ago.

Craft breweries spending so much time trying to wring every last IBU out of the process strikes me as a colossal waste of resources. Yes, obviously there are people who love hops, and it’s wonderful that the market provides people with a product like this or 120min., but I just fear that many would-be awesome brewers will fail by attempting to out-do Sam Calagione, and that a ton of nasty, indifferently-made beer will be snapped up by the public because it contains liquified hops, or was passed through fresh hops 9 times, or that is chemically bittered to simulate drinking pure hops while thinking of a nasty break-up. There’s nothing ‘craft’ about it.

Sorry… I… I like malt too, is pretty much what I’m saying.

This is exactly what put me off IPA's

I hope you’re right about the race to create the hoppiest beers being almost over, because it takes everything that’s nuanced and fantastic about IPA’s and beats it to death with a crate full of hops.

This is exactly right. Well said, Paul.

I absolutely adore hoppy beer but I agree with you to a certain extent.

The difference between Pliny, Hop 15, Double Bastard and 120 Minute and the lesser super-hopped beers is that the good ones are balanced, subtle and highlight the unique characteristics of hops instead of attempting to bludgeon you to death with bitterness.

You're right, and of course there's a range even within a narrow genre like this, but

where I struggle is: how can you have ‘balance’ or ‘subtlety’ when all you’ve done is pour a metric ton of hops into a copper pot and then enough water to cover?
I think the best of these beers may showcase specific hops, or the interplay between hop varieties, but none of them, not 120, not Hop 15, are ‘subtle’ in any way that I’m familiar with. This may be due to individual differences in palate, of course, but just look at the way this beer is described, or the way 120min. is created and try to tell me that the intent isn’t to bludgeon subtlety into submission…

I guess the point is that while ‘hoppiness’ is distinct from, or is merely one form of ‘bitterness’ – just trying to make a beer as hoppy as is humanly possible (or malty, or whatever) seems like you’re purposefully avoiding ‘balance’. Again, that’s not to say there can’t be more and less successful products that share this goal/methodology (one using a blend of amazing hops, the other using grass clippings and synthetic bittering agents), but man, I just prefer beers with actual balance.

In my humble opinion there's nothing subtle about 120

and it’s actually the beer that put me off hoppy beers. I found no balance in it, and it was really hard for me to finish one.

I like beers with balance too

but sometimes I crave a ton of hops. Hop 15 and Pliny especially aren’t just bitter, they’re fragrant and floral as well. That’s the difference; I hate to say this because I usually love Anderson Valley but their Imperial IPA is a great example of what I’m talking about. It’s just bitter and kind of sludgy. No floral notes or clean, earthy mouthfeel like Pliny or Hop 15.

And as far as 120 goes (and this goes for pdb’s comment below as well) I shouldn’t have mentioned it because you’re right, there is nothing subtle about it at all. It’s one of those beers that really shouldn’t be considered a beer (like Palo Santo Marron or, I would assume at least, Utopias) because drinking an entire bottle is an absolute chore. I love 120 Minute but I want to drink about as often as I want to drink whiskey or scotch, which isn’t very often.

How the hell can you not want to drink whiskey or scotch often?

Anyway, yes, there are beers (Gemini is one I’d offer up) that are both really hoppy and have actual balance.

I’m reading the description above, or just the name, and I instantly think: this is a brewer who is out of ideas. Maybe I shouldn’t, but there you go.

I drink beer every day.

I drink liquor maybe once a month.

And Gemini is really really good but it made my stomach hurt.

In more happy beer news

Belmont Station just got in their first shipment of Anderson Valley Summer Solstice today! I now have plans for the evening.

WOOHOO!

Something to look forward to.
I just got a new shipment of UK ales, and I picked up Golden Monkey from Victory, Dick’s Grand Cru and a few other things. I think I’m good for a while.

I wouldn't necessarily say he's out of ideas

I think more likely is that he’s (they’re) doing this in an effort to get noticed by having one of the most bitter beers on the planet. Calagione did this with ABV and World Wide Stout (?) and it certainly got Dogfish a lot of attention. Valley Brewing is a smallish place with limited distribution that, according to the ratings, seems to have a lot of good stuff. Maybe this is their way of trying to make more money.

Yes, I should've mentioned that

And this is why I mentioned Calagione in this thread: a lot of people buy this stuff because it sounds ‘intense’ or is really, really strong. I think half the people that buy 120min HATE 120min. But you’re absolutely right, this sort of thing will probably make Valley more money than a really well crafted…something else.

Of course, I see it’s got a 100 rating on ratebeer. Which makes me wonder if people give higher ratings to extremely hoppy/XIPA type deals.

It's also possible that it's really good.

Yes, it's possible it's amazing.

This is a day late for the ‘perils of aging’ discussion, but ‘stifling cynicism’ is an oft-overlooked symptom of age. It develops earlier in Seattle sports fans, but still.

No, it's a symptom of intelligence

Skepticism is a symptom of intelligence.

Cynicism is a symptom of being jaded.

Cool, thanks. My brain has never gone down that trail.

I have always assumed I was all of the above, but I’m not sure now.

Sec 108 - April 10, 2009 reply

I love DH 120 min

I also didn’t care for AV IIPA much. Really bland.

It was like drinking hop flavored sugar water.

Quick! Your opinion of Ninkasi Spring Reign?

I know you weren't asking me but I just had this last night at a Ninkasi event

and I like it pretty well.

Haven't had it.

The only Ninkasi beers I can find up here are Oatis, Tricerahops, Believer and Total Domination.

Appears as thoug Matthew was unimpressed.

Yeah, I saw matthew and I gave it exactly the same rating.

It’s possible that you’ll like it much more than I; your taste in beer is quite different from mine.

When I had it, I guessed matthew would give it between 2.5/2.8. Nailed it.

It doesn't sound like my kind of beer, honestly.

For the record

what I was trying to say is that this could be their way of making more people aware of them, thereby introducing a greater number of beer drinkers to the rest of their repertoire once they get past the Uberhoppy. People are naturally attracted to things that push the boundaries, and if someone tries this beer, they’ll be more likely to seek out other stuff by this brewery, too, which is terrific in the end.

And there’s always the possibility that this particular beer is awesome.

Man, I drink scotch quite often.

I mean I do love beer, good beer, but where’s the OTPOTD Scotch discussion?

AtomicGarden - April 10, 2009 reply

Balance

You have balance when there’s a good interplay (and, well, balance) between the hops and the malt. If you have a shit-ton of hops in a beer, you need a shit-ton of malt in order to get a balanced beer. See: Avery Maharajah for what is, in my opinion, a well balanced IIPA. There’s a lot of malt in there too, and it’s a fantastic brew. Also, it’s hard to get around here, but Bells Hopslam is another fantastic IIPA, as is Dreadnaught from Three Floyds. But hey, we’ve got a bunch of other people posting beers that aren’t posted here, maybe you guys are into trading on RB or BA. :)

I’m thirsty now

masont - April 10, 2009 reply

I think the biggest difference here

is that an ultra-scoville hot sauce isn’t palatable, whereas you can drink a beer with a shit ton of hops. I even enjoy them most of the time, which puts me in the minority, but it is what it is. There’s a market for these.

There are plenty of people who swear that 1,000,000 scoville unit sauces really 'make the dish'

or some such nonsense.

Fundamentally, I’m with you. There’s no reason an ultra-hoppy beer can’t be decent. They can’t be ‘balanced’ but they can be ‘tasty.’ I’m still worried that craft beer will keep trying to out-do Dogfish head, but who knows. Creative brewers from Port to Laughing Buddha show that my fear isn’t terribly likely.

There are always going to be some people trying to push the boundaries and exceed the extremes

That’s just how it is with everything. Oneupsmanship and all that. And I don’t think it represents a problem at all, just so long as you look at the results more as proof-of-concept deals than anything else. I doubt that Valley Brewing expects Uberhoppy to be its flagship beer, any more than Dogfish relies on 120 or Sam Adams relies on Utopias. As long as people are still able to produce a solid line of regulars, I don’t see anything wrong with experimentation.

Cahill's control

I hear people say that control has never been Cahill’s thing, but he posted over 3/1 K/BB with 10+ k/9 at two levels of A ball in his career. 1 walk every three innings is pretty good control if you ask me. Not that he sustained that level of skill in AA or is likely to in MLB, but I think he’s shown pretty nice control skills at the lower levels. If his minor league skills ever translate to the big leagues, he’s got front of the rotation potential. But I think the A’s are rushing it.

philosofool - April 10, 2009 reply

~3+ BB rates in the low low minors isn't good control.

3.3 was league ave. in the Cal league last year

and 4 teams had team walk rates under 3.

So, basically, what Matthew said.

Hattip for the additional context!

Visual aid:

I feel like I'm the sort of person who should be wearing a hat more often.

Yes

I was thinking more like

What the fuck?

I previewed that shit.

(I was thinking more like this)

Hats are good.

msb - April 10, 2009 reply

How did people manage to make out back then? Look at those brims, it's practically like sleeping in seperate beds.

Kermit. - April 10, 2009 reply

They didn't really

it was more a violent pressing of faces together, while the woman was frequently clasped by the upper arms to prevent an attempt to escape. It’s the american way to kiss. What you’re thinking of is ‘frenching’.

Kirsten Schlewitz - April 10, 2009 reply

And there were strict rules about separate beds.

msb - April 10, 2009 reply

I thought you were the sort who should be wearing a scarf more often.

Seriously?

I hate scarves and they hate me.

We're to sweep these bitches

Maybe.

speedomike - April 10, 2009 reply

flashback!!!! arrrgghhh!!! flashback!!!!

here I am, innocently working on a dvd of the gala for the Shalikashvili Chair in National Security Studies and the narrator announces that the gala got under way with a “stirring rendition of the national nathem, sung by 19 year old April Villanueva, who hails from Stillacoom, Washington, General Shalikashvili’s hometown.”

You’ll be pleased to know that she still sings the anthem at a glacial pace — however, she doesn’t feel the need to ornament the hell out of it anymore.

msb - April 10, 2009 reply

For a minute there I could have sworn you were working on something for Genera Sakashvili

but then I remembered he’s an MBA, not a general.

In other news

The Regression Reaper is pretty pissed off at Texas today.

ThundaPC - April 10, 2009 reply

Miguel Cabrera is really pissed his team started off 1-3

cwel87 - April 10, 2009 reply

Heyyyy

the reason I was never high on the Rangers this season!

It's a bad season for pitchers making comebacks

Though said reaper still has a huge man-crush on Armando Galarraga.

Huh.

Getting Texas back in line was a more pressing issue

I’m sure he’ll come to bone Mr. Galarraga when the time is right.

cwel87 - April 10, 2009 reply

As Brett Anderson is making his major league debut

Against the M’s tonight, I predict he’ll toss eight innings of two-hit shutout ball.

A la John Rheinecker fro ma couple years back. It seems like every time a young pitcher gets his first chance against Seattle, he shines against them.

As for the rest of the series…. Giambi, Garciaparra, O. Cabrera, Sweeney, Junior Griffey…. This would have been an exciting offensive series ten years ago!

true_slicky - April 10, 2009 reply

O. Cabrera? Exciting offense?

He hit 254/293/403 in 1999.

Eyebrows - April 10, 2009 reply

I dunno, this isn't your 08 Mariners

I don’t automatically expect them to go get themselves out on pitches out of the zone. It’s pretty exciting actually, having no idea what to expect from either team.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/athletics/detail?&entry_id=38317

Disagree - Lopez, Betancourt, Gutierrez, Holiday, Kurt Suzuki, Buck

I can only imagine how awful their offense would have been against Major League pitching ten years ago.

katal - April 10, 2009 reply

A's are going with Anderson, Outman, Cahill

mikeA - April 10, 2009 reply

I really would not be surprised if the Mariners sweep here

Then again I would not be surprised if Oakland sweeps here because hey fuck us

Our offense is due for some sucking

because hey fuck us

pretty much hit the nail on the head there

Our offense did kinda suck yesterday.

ThundaPC - April 10, 2009 reply

Poor results aside, I liked quite a bit of what I saw

Lopez had some terrible at bats in high LI situations, and there were a couple of hard hit balls that found gloves. I thought they could well have come away with four runs yesterday.

We’ve been so excited about our own outfield D that we forget that Minnesota’s is pretty ballin too.

Carlos Gomez and Denard Span are equal when it comes to Gutz and Endy.

Span was amazing the entire series.

Wilder. - April 10, 2009 reply

Every time I saw one of our players hit a ball to left-center I knew it was going to be an out.

BrianL - April 10, 2009 reply

i hope you mean that Span is Endy's defensive equal

because he’s head and shoulders above Endy.