Going Away
Jeff Clement: You should all be familiar with the Clement story by now. Promising lefty power bat capable of drawing a walk who didn't hit in his extended big league audition. Drafted as a catcher but doesn't have the knees for the job. It's no coincidence that the reports on this trade are calling him a first baseman - that's his realistic long-term position. Clement has taken a marked step back at the plate in AAA this year, his OPS dropping by 260 points and his contact rate falling by nearly 8%, and at nearly 26 years old, his stock is the lowest it's ever been. Even so, there remains a good bit of potential in his bat, and a change of scenery that gets him out from behind the dish could be just what he needs to arrive as a sort of approximation of, I dunno, Ryan Garko. He very clearly didn't have a place here, which made him eminently tradeable, but he should get a shot with the Pirates.
Ronny :(edeno: If Ronny hadn't turned into a pile of crap overnight then we wouldn't have needed to make this trade in the first place. Cedeno has been as advertised in the field, but in all seriousness, his swing is the worst I've ever seen in the Major Leagues from a position player. The worst. His at bats have been painful to watch from the beginning, and he needed to get out of here and get a fresh start somewhere else in the worst way. Just a miserable four months with but a scattered handful of that-just-happened home runs.
Aaron Pribanic: 22 year old college arm struggling to miss bats in A-ball. He has a full repertoire, but it isn't fully developed, and his big asset at the moment is a heavy low-90s fastball that's allowed him to keep two-thirds of batted balls on the ground. Probable reliever long-term.
Nathan Adcock: 21 year old who will be judged unfairly by the nightmarish numbers he's put up in High Desert. Not much of a fastball - hangs out around 87-90 - but Baseball America has had good things to say about his curveball, which he used to great effect a year ago against both righties and lefties. The big question will be whether or not his breaking ball is able to sustain its success against more advanced competition. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Adcock doesn't have much of a changeup yet, without which he is also a probable reliever long-term. But there's upside.
Brett Lorin: The prize of the three-headed pitching bounty, although you wouldn't know that from Neal Huntington's assessment.
"Brett has been noted by our scouts for his plus makeup, competitive nature and desire to win and succeed," said Huntington.
A 22 year old college arm having good success in the same A-ball rotation as Pribanic, Lorin has a live fastball that touches the mid-90s and what's been billed as a pretty tight and sharp curveball. As is the case with pretty much everyone at his level, his change is a work in progress, but his heater gives him an advantage over Adcock in terms of sticking in the rotation in the upper levels. Though by no means a top prospect, Lorin's a decent one, and the right sort of guy for a rebuilding organization to stockpile.
Coming Back
Jack Wilson: Aesthetic foil to Franklin Gutierrez, Wilson's a below-average bat with a glove that's a good bit above-average by any worthwhile measure. He is not a star, and at 31 there aren't a whole lot of useful years left in his career, but he's the sort of player I thought Ronny Cedeno was going to be, in that his offense/defense combination makes him a somewhat unappealing but still all-around average asset. He has an $8.4m club option for 2010, and while that isn't cheap, it isn't unreasonable, Pittsburgh is throwing in money, and this gives us a good 1+ season stopgap while the front office searches for a longer-term solution. It's worth considering, though, that we could just as easily turn around and sell him again. Wilson gives us security without tying our hands. He's a better player than people think he is, and a massive upgrade for as long as he's here.
Ian Snell: How this trade looks five years down the road will depend on how Snell handles the change. Snell was a good starting pitcher in 2006 and 2007, but he has since taken a huge step back despite no evident decline in repertoire. Between 2007 and 2009, Snell's strike rate dropped from 65% to 59% and his swinging strike rate dropped from 11% to 8%. Those are really significant red flags, but the factor you have to consider here is how much of that was due to Snell and the Pirates wanting little to do with each other. The Pirates famously called Snell's contract extension "a mistake", and for Snell's part, he asked to be demoted to AAA and then publicly stated his reluctance to be recalled. Snell was obviously unhappy in the Pittsburgh organization, which makes him both an intriguing acquisition and an enormous risk.
What's encouraging is that, upon ending up in AAA, Snell has gone on to recover his ability to throw strikes and miss bats. There is still a lot of talent in there, which is why so many teams were interested in his services. The only issue is that it's hard to depend on a full recovery for psychological reasons when the statistics look so bad. I am cautiously optimistic, but there is no guarantee that Snell will be able to get back to being a good starting pitcher in the Major Leagues. If he does, the team has club options for both 2011 and 2012. If he doesn't, he'll be gone by next fall at the latest. We'll see. Big gamble with big upside.
Money: I love money. Money can be exchanged for anything! Willie Ballgame could only dream of being so versatile.
Overall
Of the various possibilities, this was not the trade I was expecting, and my immediate reaction was that we gave up a lot for two potentially helpful but by no means spectacular players. And I still think that's true. Like Dave has said, Snell was most interesting as a buy-low candidate, but we didn't really buy low, and Wilson shouldn't have had too high of a cost. But while I'm surprised by the price we paid, and while I thought Zduriencik would be able to do better (now we have to wonder what happens with Wlad and Washburn), I want to make clear that nobody ripped anyone off here. We didn't take advantage of the Pirates, but at the same time they also didn't rob us blind, and both Wilson and Snell could occupy important roles in our run at the playoffs in 2010. Don't be misled by Wilson's mediocre bat. He's a decent player and a big upgrade. And Snell, though risky, was perhaps the most attractive change-of-scenery option in the league. Three years ago he had a better tRA+ than Felix.
An interesting trade that's going to be hotly debated, I'm sure. At the end of the day, though, we upgraded our team without giving up any potential stars, and while it's weird to see a team in our position trade prospects for veterans, that's an oversimplification. This isn't so much buying for 2009 as it is buying for 2010 and beyond, and it's by keeping that in mind that I'm able to keep from being particularly disappointed. Our organizational pitching depth is now even thinner than it was last night, but we've also improved at the upper levels, and that's worth a whole lot.
0 recs | 142 comments
One too many arms sent packing in my opinion. However, if Wallace, Adair, and Wak
can get Snell to reach his potential, he’s easily the best arm of the bunch.
I think we all had dreams of Hardy or Brignac, so the Wilson pickup is somewhat disappointing, but this is a significant upgrade over what we’ve been seeing at SS.
Overall, I don’t love the deal, but find it hard to believe the players we gave up are going to, in any way, damage the system or organization.
Rudy4three - July 29, 2009
I can't wait to see everyone lose batshit when we trade Washburn
Poochie - July 29, 2009
Lose batshit?
My batshit ain’t going nowhere.
lemonverbena - July 29, 2009
Mixed metaphor!
Poochie - July 29, 2009
By the way
Snell last threw on the 26th, so his next scheduled start would be this Friday, a slot currently occupied by Vargas. If the team is serious about keeping Vargas’ innings down, they could always just bump him a turn and then have him assume Olson’s place the next week.
Jeff Sullivan - July 29, 2009
And also there's probably Washburn's spot too which I forgot for some reason
Jeff Sullivan - July 29, 2009
I love how many people have mistaken this move as buying for this season
and now Wash is staying put
Poochie - July 29, 2009
Money
I like that we are getting Wilson and Snell for free this year (basically).
I had a chance to go run for a few miles, and the deal sits a little better now. We shouldn’t forget how bad we were at SS. Wilson makes that go away, even if he’s average at best.
Once again, the team is better for now and, if Snell pans out, the future.
tait644 - July 29, 2009
I know they were trade pieces with some value
but Clement and :(edeno were personas non grata in the M’s organization. They were basically throw-ins. I don’t know the pitchers we gave up, but if you look at it as two empty uniforms and three minor league arms for Wilson and Snell, plus cash, then it looks pretty decent.
lemonverbena - July 29, 2009
So with the Phillies now out of the running, who are suitors for Wash?
Red Sox? The Twins?
Coach Owens - July 29, 2009
I also hear the Yanks are still interested.
Just blather from the radio, so take that for it’s worth.
JLProck - July 29, 2009
Do the Yanks have anything that we want?
Do they have a good second basemen that will be ready soon?
InSpokane - July 29, 2009
Jose Lopez is good
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
In a moral sense,
less so in a baseball sense.
Bearskin Rugburn - July 29, 2009
Jose Lopez is not in any way a problem.
2B could be upgraded, but seriously. There are bigger fish to fry.
Aaron Campeau - July 29, 2009
You're absolutely right on the last point
but a sub-.300 OBP is pretty sad to see in the middle of our lineup. I know he’s getting boned by BABIP this year… I guess it’s a matter of how much growth you think he has left in him.
Bearskin Rugburn - July 29, 2009
It's not his fault he's hitting where he is, and the overall package is fine.
Aaron Campeau - July 29, 2009
He's got a .310 wOBA with wicked miserable luck
oh well.
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
Jose Lopez is good at baseball
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
He is a roughly average AL player signed to a team friendly contract.
Matthew - July 29, 2009
Yankees
And could we offer Washburn to the Rays? For Kazmir – eating all of his salary?
tait644 - July 29, 2009
The Rays are not retarded.
Aaron Campeau - July 29, 2009
We could make that offer, sure
that offer would then be laughed out the door faster than the Rays could pronounce Z’s full name.
pdb - July 29, 2009
They were moving Kazmir to get Lee.
Not to dump him.
R.J. Anderson - July 29, 2009
I am happy...
Never again will I have to watch the abomination that is Ronny Cedeno swinging a baseball bat.
mem - July 29, 2009
Sad to see two of our former top propsects gone.
Times sure have changed.
Coach Owens - July 29, 2009
My initial reaction was this sucks, mostly because it was painful to see so much starting pitching go away for the second year in a row
and after not drafting any college arms.
But looking at it again, in Snell and Morrow we have two righties who are back end starters right now and have 2/3 starter upside that seems just around the corner. This rotation could be formidable again next year if paired with a solid defense. And the defense will be good, the only real question mark at this point being 3B.
As far as Snell’s decline is concerned, I have complete faith that Zduriencik’s stat people saw the red flags and their concerns were addressed by scouts. If you see a 3% decline in StrSw, it must be either a) loss of stuff, b)loss of comand or c) loss of interest. Apparently jack’s people looked into it and decided it was c). Let’s hope this sleep-dep driven optimism is justified.
Bearskin Rugburn - July 29, 2009
Z has watched the guy a bunch of times
Snell is probably not on the path of the Buddda but Pirates are a screwy organization.
JetSam - July 29, 2009
*Buddha
JetSam - July 29, 2009
Pretty sure we don't see Wash moved until Friday
Garces - July 29, 2009
I think with Lee now moved, it makes the teams that were hoping for Lee and knew they couldn't get Halladay, now scrambling for Washburn.
Kenny Knows Sports - July 29, 2009
If it was Bavasi who'd made this trade, there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth
…saying we’d thinned the farm system and gave up on Clement to get back a vet and a question mark. But because we trust Z’s ability to proven ability to evaluate talent, he’s being given the benefit of the doubt.
Spoomeister - July 29, 2009
Z has a better track record than Bavasi.
Fin - July 29, 2009
I can't speak for everybody, but I like both players
Poochie - July 29, 2009
These guys aren't Ben Broussard, Eduardo Perez, Horacio Ramirez, etc.
They have a proven track record.
Kenny Knows Sports - July 29, 2009
"But because we trust Z’s ability to proven ability to evaluate talent, he’s being given the benefit of the doubt."
Ding ding ding.
Also, some of us aren’t big fans of this trade.
Aaron Campeau - July 29, 2009
So Dave Cameron thinks this is an overpay because Snell was done in Pittsbrgh and everyone knew it
but can’t the same thing be said about Clement? And if you forget that Clement was a 3rd overall pick and until reently our best and brightest hope for a hitting catcher, but just look at his numbers, age, and lack of position he’s doesn’t seem like he’d be real valuable.
Bearskin Rugburn - July 29, 2009
I don't think anyone is really all the mad about losing Clement, but I could be wrong.
MFAN - July 29, 2009
Im mad that he sucked.
Kenny Knows Sports - July 29, 2009
What this man says is wise
Jeff Nusser - July 29, 2009
He thinks it's an overpay because we traded five guys and three young pitchers for players who may not help us beyond 2010
Jeff Sullivan - July 29, 2009
Snell can be here for a while
but you don’t need me to tell you that. I guess I draw solace from the fact that all three pitchers were in low minors, where we have younger guys with higher upside.
Bearskin Rugburn - July 29, 2009
And now we have fewer young guys with upside in the low minors
significantly fewer, though as JY pointed out in his entry, young guys emerge in the low minors all the time
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
Those guys didn't have a ton of upside. You're talking about long/mid relief or back end starters.
Rudy4three - July 29, 2009
We'll restock that with draft pick signings?
Matthew - July 29, 2009
Right
you also have to consider, I think, that we’re going to need five big league arms next year and so far we’ve got Felix, Silva, Morrow and the three lefties. We give up some A/AA depth for AAA/ML depth, which is a greater need at this point. Besides, as Jeff points out Snell was very recently a great asset.
Bearskin Rugburn - July 29, 2009
The way things have worked out for Jack Z. Something tells me Snell is going to work
out here.
Rudy4three - July 29, 2009
It's nice to be able to assume
that a move will work out a priori.
Bearskin Rugburn - July 29, 2009
This deal ought to make everyone who thinks they still have a shot at the playoffs happy
Sports radio is filled with glee.
Jeff Nusser - July 29, 2009
Stop taking threads off-topic.
I don’t understand what the hell is wrong with you.
Jeff Sullivan - July 29, 2009
I understand you don't want to single people out and have better things to do
but maybe the mods could reply directly to off topic comments so as to give everyone a clearer idea of how narrow a given topic is (at least, for a little while). For instance, there are comments about the Yuni trade that aren’t really relevant here but are about trades in general so they’re not as far off topic as you can get. Or Washburn speculation for another example, which again isn’t the Clement trade but is affected by it. Just as suggestion, to give us a better idea of what the new standards are.
Bearskin Rugburn - July 29, 2009
Who the hell are we going to bat 9th now?!?!
Ronny was the anchor of this lineup!
Wilder. - July 29, 2009
The anchor that wrapped itself around our necks and dragged us to the bottom of the sea.
russak - July 29, 2009
Saunders today
Matthew - July 29, 2009
Johnson, obviously
He still has that certain “je ne sais pas” quality about him.
And by that I mean, “je ne sais what the hell I’m doing with un bat”.
Spoomeister - July 29, 2009
My friend roughly translated this for me, then I laughed.
JamMasterJesus - July 29, 2009
More like the cement shoes
Bearskin Rugburn - July 29, 2009
It's weird, I still don't know how I feel about this trade.
I think I was hoping for Kazmir/Brignac and this is a bit of a letdown.
drm1125 - July 29, 2009
Well I prefer Snell to Kazmir.
It just sucks the Rays wouldn’t give up on Brignac, they have so many good shortstops and we have so FEW!
Kenny Knows Sports - July 29, 2009
I always worry about pitchers coming from NL to AL, that's why I prefered Kazmir
drm1125 - July 29, 2009
Still have Morrow and Washburn to trade.
But yeah, would be nice to pick up Escobar or Brignac.
Wilder. - July 29, 2009
I hope we don't trade Morrow.
His value is not nearly as low as Clement’s, yet he keeps getting perceived that way.
Kenny Knows Sports - July 29, 2009
Always good to bring a suicidal player to the city with the highest suicide rate in the country.
CapSea - July 29, 2009
I thought that was Salem, Oregon?
Pessimistic Optimist - July 29, 2009
Technically it is Las Vegas
But it is widely believed to be Seattle. Search for ‘Highest Suicide Rate City" and you get a whole bunch of links of people asking if it is true about Seattle…. Whatever, Snell’s going to off himself.
CapSea - July 29, 2009
The problem is that 10% of the ones in Vegas are people from Seattle.
(Not true, I made this up)
Sec 108 - July 29, 2009
...thereby giving Seattle the edge over the Angels in the whole "personal tragedy" thing
Spoomeister - July 29, 2009
Any city in Nebraska?
russak - July 29, 2009
Shooting yourself while cleaning your gun, or having a stroke after you 1000th chicken wing.
These are not classified as suicide.
CapSea - July 29, 2009
Nebraska actually has one of the lowest suicide rates in the nation
Corco - July 29, 2009
i like the trade
Wilson can keep the spot warm next year until (hopefully) Carlos is ready to take over in 2011.. Snell adds depth to help for the holes washburn and bedard will leave, add in the money? I don’t see any way we lost this trade unless one of those minor leaguers wins a cy young
Paseman - July 29, 2009 via mobile
Carlos who?
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
Carlos will probably play 2B or 3B. We still need a long term solution at SS.
Rudy4three - July 29, 2009
Nick Franklin!
Coach Owens - July 29, 2009
That Noriega kid is pretty good too. But we are talking 4-5 years for both those guys if they
pan out.
Rudy4three - July 29, 2009
Results based analysis.
Matthew - July 29, 2009
Please Explain
Paseman - July 29, 2009
It doesn't matter if one of the kids we gave up wins a Cy Young award
what matters is their talent level at the time of the trade and how we project them going forward. There’s no way for GMZ to know if Brett Lorin will suddenly add four mph to his fastball and be the next Brandon Webb – we can only judge them based on how they’re projected as of right now.
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
We won't win or lose the trade three years from now.
We win or lose the trade right now.
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
Mark Langston is the gift that keeps on giving.
Wilder. - July 29, 2009
Reed netted us Heilman, who netted us Ronny Cedeno, who was packaged to net us Wilson and Snell?
BrianL - July 29, 2009
I believe that is the lineage.
Wilder. - July 29, 2009
Does Cedeno take Wilson's role in Pitt?
russak - July 29, 2009
Yes
Matthew - July 29, 2009
Him or Bixler
Trenchtown - July 29, 2009
Someone (Paul maybe?) had a flow chart a while back
Now it would be huge. That trade will never end now that Reed was included in that deal.
Fuckmikereilly - July 29, 2009
It would be really nice if the Washburn trade netted us some pitching now thank you
OlSalty - July 29, 2009
Anyone else think that Lincoln and/or Armstrong may have had a slight hand in this?
I know they claimed that they were going to pretty much let Z do whatever he wanted but I would assume that Z knows that we don’t have a very good chance of making the playoffs. But with the bigger crowds they’ve had this season and the “promise” of contention, I kind of think that Lincoln and Armstrong insisted that Z wouldn’t make a move that made it look like we were giving up. Maybe it’s just me.
Coach Owens - July 29, 2009
No reason to think that at this time.
Matthew - July 29, 2009
I dont get why a lot of M's fans or media members have to break everything down into 'Buyers or Sellers'
I dont think this trade is about that. It’s about improving the club going forward. If Jack sees something that makes sense and improves the team or system he’s going to make a deal regardless of where the team sits in the standings or what point in the season it is.
Rudy4three - July 29, 2009
Because it makes for better talk radio
Duh.
Jeff Nusser - July 29, 2009
Agreed.
Why can’t the Mariners try to do things to win this season, even if they don’t have a realistic shot at the playoffs? You’ll have a lot easier time signing free agents with an 85-win season than with a 75-win season. (Not that this trade improved us by ten wins of course, just that you should always be trying to do things to win.)
Kenny Knows Sports - July 29, 2009
What this man says is wise
Jeff Nusser - July 29, 2009
Boy, these insinuations sure never get old
Jeff Nye - July 29, 2009
The only way the'd be involved
is if they requested that GMZ still try to make a team that can win games this year, even if we are not playoff bound. Otherwise, I don’t see why they’d care about who we get or how.
CapSea - July 29, 2009
Can I just say that I like what the Pirates are doing over the past season and a half?
For over 15 years they were probably the worst run franchise in baseball. But now they seem to be re-stocking the farm system in a good way and if they follow the Rays model, and sign their young players early to long-term contracts, they could perhaps start to build a core that they won’t have to trade away the year before they become free agents.
Losing Jason Bay is tough but if Pedro Alvarez and Jose Tabata develop like they hope and if even one of these guys they got from the Mariners becomes a good player, then it will have been a success as Snell was clearly done in Pitt.
Kenny Knows Sports - July 29, 2009
Pffft
Some of us have been bandwagoning on the Pirates for like a year.
Matthew - July 29, 2009
Only a year?
Kenny Knows Sports - July 29, 2009
The Pirates of 2007 were also awesome and well run
Matthew - July 29, 2009
I've always been the type of person who loved the underdog, so I've been following the Pirates for a little while.
I move on after a team succeeds. So I was with the Rays back in the early 2000’s and now I can move on.
Kenny Knows Sports - July 29, 2009
This is where I call you a homosexual buttaneer
Poochie - July 29, 2009
(raises hand)
ThundaPC - July 29, 2009
I would have liked this trade a lot more 6 days ago
Nate Dogg - July 29, 2009
That is a point that can not be ignored.
Kenny Knows Sports - July 29, 2009
Is anyone else scared that Washburn is going to finish the season with us?
I’ve got a bad feeling about this…
OceanBird - July 29, 2009
I think this is independent of Washburn.
Fuckmikereilly - July 29, 2009
I'm more scared about him starting next season with us.
Aaron Campeau - July 29, 2009
That would be the real tragedy.
Kenny Knows Sports - July 29, 2009
Nope
Poochie - July 29, 2009
I'm hoping Zduriencik and his team of scouts know more about these pitchers than the Pirates do.
He doesn’t seem to be a big fan of Fontaine’s drafts at all. Clement and this trio of pitchers (and maybe Morrow) gone, Aumont moved to relief. He did sign Fields, which was weird.
Manzanillos Cup - July 29, 2009
I'm pretty sure there were some strategic reasons that made signing Fields a decent idea.
Unfortunately I cannot relate what they were, as I did not retain any of that information in long term memory.
Kermit. - July 29, 2009
Essentially Jack Z decided that Fields was worth more than the 22nd selection in this years draft
unfortunately, that selection turned out to be Kyle Gibson, but there was no way to know he would slip that far in May
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
There also might have been budget issues.
In which Fields came out of the 2008 budget and the 22nd this year would come out of 2009.
Matthew - July 29, 2009
Kyle Gibson would have been nice =(
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
Bingo!
Sec 108 - July 29, 2009
This is one thing I took from this trade
Zduriencik doesn’t seem to think much of the Fontaine-drafted pitchers. 3 gone in one sweep.
edgar is good - July 29, 2009
.
PositivePaul - July 29, 2009
I never realized that Jeff Clement is so unattractive
Jeff Sullivan - July 29, 2009
modfightmodfight
marc w - July 29, 2009
Matthew and Jeff seemed to disagree on Manuel too
is there behind-the-scenes friction? You’ll find out after this commercial break!
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
That is some effective friction if they wrap up during a commercial break.
Sec 108 - July 29, 2009
No we do not.
Matthew - July 29, 2009
HOW DARE YOU SULLY A PERFECTLY GOOD RUMOR WITH TRUTH
pdb - July 29, 2009
Like I'm wrong here
Jeff Sullivan - July 29, 2009
Camera angles?
PositivePaul - July 29, 2009
Nope still ugly
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
So umm...
Yeah.
I do like Snell though, I just think he could have been had for less.
SethGrandpa - July 29, 2009
The whole "He could have been had for less" phrase gets used a lot around here.
Not to single you out specifically, but there is a fundamental problem with saying that when in fact reality shows it to not be true. What we gave up is in fact exactly what it took to get him.
If we do not offer what we did there is a very real chance no trade gets made. Just because we may wish there was less given up in a trade does not mean we can say “He could have been had for less.”
Sec 108 - July 29, 2009
You gave it up for nothing
Pretty sure it doesn’t get any less than that.
Kermit. - July 29, 2009
Call me crazy, but GMs always ask for more than fair value. Occasionally the other team says "yes" before they're down to minimum value.
I think this is one of those cases.
SethGrandpa - July 29, 2009
Do you think there was no back and forth negotiating?
Sec 108 - July 30, 2009
Why did you all have to get Snell with your Pirates middle infielder?!!!
It’s not like our rotation is very good after the 1-2.
/shakes fist
baetown415 - July 29, 2009
There are at least two elements in your sig that will not endear you to people in this neck of the woods
pdb - July 29, 2009
VORP is awesome
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
and Driveline Mechanics is not
pdb - July 29, 2009
There's nothing wrong with analyzing pitcher's mechanics
and Kyle Boddy actually does a very good job.
It’s when you try to apply mechanics to injury prevention that you get into trouble. We understand what kinds of things are repeatable and deceptive already.
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
I think VORP is inferior to RARP
And since you can find RARP on BP’s site, is there any point of using VORP?
baetown415 - July 29, 2009
Given that we're a WAR-using community, I don't think that's one of the two
seattlebruin - July 29, 2009
I know
I guess my “iffy” is kind of ambiguous too, but it’s nicer than “aesthetically unpleasing” and “slow-ass”.
baetown415 - July 29, 2009
I like this trade a lot.
Snell is awesome and none of the pitchers we gave up are anything to write home about. I like that we gave up a few low-ceiling pitchers instead of one top-5 prospect.
lailaihei - July 29, 2009
Agree, almost
The saber metric community has rightly deplored wasting prospects for middling veterans, but the real value of prospects seems to be smaller than we often let on. Does any one of these pitchers have more than a 50% chance to make a major league appearance? If so, what is their expected WAR? We can do the expected utility calculation on these guys, and it doesn’t add up to much. Three fifth round-ish draft picks, none with a substantial enough minor league career to significantly change that assessment.
Clement has no place in the organization and his trade value is that of a guy who might be an MLB average 1B some day. Cedeno is basically replacement level.
In exchange for that we get an average SS for $8M (not a deal, not a bust—basically market value) and a pitcher who should be at least 1 WAR, may be 3 WAR, who is owed a mere 4.25 million and who, if he is three WAR, can be retained for a very reasonable cost. Those options are worth about $3 million each, I think. (25% chance that Snell becomes a 3WAR pitcher again, at which point he’s worth about $12M, which gives $3M.) And we’re paying him just about what his current performance is worth. Worst case scenario on Snell, he whines about not wanting to leave Tacoma because he sucked in Seattle and doesn’t want to go back.
The almost part of this agreement goes like this “I like this trade
a lot”; it’s fine, but no steal.philosofool - July 29, 2009
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