SB Nation - Login for mobile commenting

Lookout Landing

A Hypothetical Cliff Lee Extension

Clifton Phifer Lee arrives in Seattle with some high expectations resting on his left arm. The Cy Young Award, deserved, and the World Series accomplishments against the Yankees have set Lee firmly in the sights and minds of every baseball fan out there. Those eyes, in turn, will now pass more than a glancing gaze to Seattle. It is among our hopes that Lee brings those eyes here and Felix gives them a reason to stick around, forming a starting pitching combination the likes of what was seen in Cleveland with Lee and CC Sabathia just a few years back.

Baseball games can get a touch monotonous during the season, being an every day routine and mostly alike. That day's starting pitcher is the only constantly changing variable which is why games are usually referred to by who's pitching. We have Felix Day. We don't have Ichiro Suzuki Day. Everyday, thank god, is Ichiro Day. The arrival of a Felix Hernandez start serves to break up the pace from the Jason Vargas' and Garrett Olson's of the world. No offense to either of them, they are both fine pitchers, but they are not Felix. Few are.

But even the thrill of Felix Day can get a little dampened over the summer days once we've settled into the daily groove of following baseball. They still offer the higher probability to see something special, but the electricity that surrounds them at the start of the year, when baseball is still fresh, can be dimmed. In Spring our thirst for baseball, dried out over six long months, is still not yet quenched. Those first few games, everything about baseball that we take for granted is new again. The grass of the field is such a brilliant shade of green.

Aside from the curse of familiarity, I think there's another factor at play for, not quite apathy, but perhaps a less than full appreciation. We don't see the end coming. Not for Felix anyways. When you don't know for sure when someone is going to end, it is easy to subconsciously assume that things will stay the same. One day, Felix will leave and a lot of people are going to look back and wish they had gone to more of his starts while a Mariner.

Well, we have a much better idea when the end will be for Cliff Lee. His contract is up at the end of the season, and unlike Felix, he's not a product of the system with a huge local appeal. Seattle is technically the sixth team to hold rights to Cliff Lee's services. What would it take for 2011 to not mark the seventh?

I mentioned at the meet up that I felt the odds of Lee staying in Seattle were extremely low since he would certainly justify a bigger contract than the one John Lackey just got this winter. Lee is obviously the better pitcher and is just two months older than Lackey. Granted there will be a 14 month difference in terms of age when the contract will be signed, but I think the talent gap is likely to make that up. I stated that I was uncomfortable with the idea of even signing Lee to Lackey's contract.

In the vein of the Felix Hernandez post before, I felt it worthwhile to look into Cliff Lee and explore differing scenarios for how much I would extend him for as a sort of benchmark. This one is a bit trickier since I doubt the team is looking at extending Cliff Lee right this moment. They could always surprise me, but I think their focus, of the two, is on Felix and the team probably needs some time to sell itself to Cliff Lee. Because of that, I am going to treat this hypothetical extension as one going into effect after the 2010 season.

Lee's first season under this new deal would be his age 32 season. Operating under the assumption that Lee posts a 5.5-win season in 2010 as outlined in the division projections, it's going to require some work on the Mariners' part to limit his deal to four years. A decline in performance is a much more vital concern with Lee than with Felix even though pitchers age differently than hitters do, so it's not as straight forward as it might seem.

Here are my basic estimates. Same guidelines as with Felix - these are the year-by-year contract breakdowns, starting in 2011, that I think would be roughly fair to both sides:

1 year, $20 million
2 years, $38 million
3 years, $54 million
4 years, $68 million
5 years, $80 million

Lackey just signed a five-year, $82.5 million contract. A deal that I was not overly fond of, neither afterwards nor beforehand. Cliff Lee, being a much better pitcher, in my opinion, actually comes close to being worth a contract of that nature, though given that it would be for his age 32-36 seasons, I would be pretty skeptical of him living up to that worth, even if I'm already docking him a half-win every season.

On the other hand, that last season would represent a roughly $12 million extra outlay, and would even be less since it would present an extra year to defer costs. Given the expected cost of a win by 2015, Lee would only have to be about a 2.5-3 win player that year to be worth it. That sounds easy now, but I don't know, would you want to take that risk?

I would love to have Cliff Lee around for more than just this one season, but if my choice right this instant was letting him walk or giving him a 5/80 contract, I'm letting him walk. That might be a fair offer based on his value, but I'm just not comfortable with deals for that long to pitchers that old. If I had my druthers, the Mariners would lock up Felix and then approach Lee about inking an extension now, replacing his current $9 million deal with something like 4 years for $60 million.

0 recs  |  38 comments

Comments

I think we should all thank Roy Halladay for signing for 3/$60mil

Which I would not mind giving Cliff at all if his performance this year meets expectations

Roy Halladay already had a big payday.

He is guaranteed to make over $100 million in his career. Cliff Lee is looking for his first big payday. Halladay was willing to accept less years to join a winning team. Lee will be more inclined to accept the largest offer possible. I don’t think you can weigh Halladay’s contract against what Lee will want, especially in terms of years.

Well, yes, I think you can.

Every contract signed by a comparable player is one more point of comparison you need to factor in.

Added benefit of defense

I think that one of the underlying benefits of defense is an ability to keep/attract top notch pitchers.

Lee has already won a Cy Young, and is, age-wise), coming off of his peak years. I’d think that he will be considering his legacy in the record books of baseball as he considers his next contract.

He might need to play a year in Safeco and with this defense behind before the Mariners will be able to sign him. But if he cares about his career numbers then I’m optimistic that he will want to stay in Seattle by season’s end.

5/80 is still really tempting...

I’d much prefer a 3 or even 4 year deal, perhaps with an option. But I think it would be worth the risk to build your team around two 5+ win pitchers for the next bunch of seasons. Or, Lee could break down or have to deal with injuries, but looking at his career I’d say he’s a decent bet to be worth it.

Clifton Phifer Lee Day has a nice ring to it.
It'll be interesting to see how well he takes to the team and the city

I mean, we haven’t really heard a word out of this guy since the trade. As mentioned above, he may be reaching a point where he would prefer to focus on how good this team will make him look through his next contract and I trust that GMZ and Co. will offer him the kind of money he deserves without sticking the team with a bad contract

What sort of injury history does Lee have?

I’d be more willing to go 4 or 5 years if he hasn’t had anything major in his past.

All trunk injuries in the past.

A couple ab strains, two hernia surgeries in the offseason, he’s missed 45 days total in the last 5 years.

Conspiracy Theory

Front office may prefer Lee over Felix (if only one is allowed) as lefty forces right batters at Safeco. If Felix’s negotiations bog down, Lee is leverage until gone (or he whispers in Felix’s ear “promise won’t sign extension for any amount”.

Highly doubtful they would prefer Lee over Felix longterm

Lee is 31, Felix is 23.

Besides, they’re pretty close to agreeing on at least a 1 year extension with Felix right now to make time to work out a long term deal, so it’s pretty clear that he’s their guy if they had to pick one.

Where'd you hear that?

About the one year extension?

Heyman tweeted that progress is being made on a 6 year deal but they will agree on a 1 year to buy time

the whole thing sounds like there’s considerable interest on both sides to come together and neither side seems to be overly concerned about it. That last bit I’m not getting from the tweet, but rather from the cumulative tone of both Jack Z and Felix in their conversations with the press.

Sorry, posted the link in the rumor thread

Per Jon Heyman

They have to come to agreement before Feb. 11 to avoid an arbitration hearing.

So while they’re working on an extension, they also have to be working on a one-year deal if they can’t work out the extension by that time.

Counter to that

Is that Safeco makes any Lefty look better. So if you’re going to commit to an extraordinary contract, it has to be an extraordinary RHP. Felix is that guy. Safeco can make the Jerrod Washburns of the world look pretty good, and lefties are in shorter supply, so you have to bid a lot higher for them (ie more risk). If you only have the cash for one, take the RHP and don’t get in a bidding war for one of the very few lefties.

I'd take that deal 5/80 sounds decent.

Especially since our farm system doesn’t have any great SP prospects on the horizon. Signing a great SP like Lee to a reasonable deal would be great compared to sifting through the FA market every year trying to find somebody to fill spots. Also, I think our farm system will be pretty good at producing outfielders, infielders, catchers and relief pitchers. Because of these relative strengths I think it would be acceptable to put a large amount of our payroll into our SP staff.

The way I’m thinking about it, the only spots we are really going to need to sign a FA in ~3 yrs is SP, 1B and maybe DH. 1B and DH are pretty easy to fill and guys can always be shifted around to fill those spots. Lee would give us the option (along with a Felix deal) of helping to settle the SP problem we will probably have for a while.

Its all a little speculation but my best guess is that SP is our most pressing need for now and the future and a Lee deal at a reasonable price (5/80 is fine cause we don’t need a bargain) would probably help this team.

It would be interesting to see if he signed for 5/80 though. I know its a fair price but I bet somebody will pay him more on the open market.

Are we ever going to have an official press conference for him?
I really do not want to sign Cliff Lee to a long term contract

He’s an excellent pitcher, but he’s also eight years(!) older than Felix, and I just don’t feel comfortable in paying a guy like he’s an ace through his age 36 season. I’d just take the draft picks and move on if I can’t get a 3/51 contract or something.

Which I note is exactly what you said

Please interpret the above comment as ‘agreed entirely’

I think all the stuff you said is good reasoning

but would you ever sign a 30 yr old SP to a deal that was 5/80mil? Cliff Lee is pretty good and they don’t get much better.

I don't think so, no
Yeah it would be interesting to see some analysis done looking at injury risk

to see how good a 30 yr old SP would need to be to justify that sized contract. Probably could be done if you assumed pitchers had no control over injuries and they were just random occurrences. You are probably right that in the end a 5/80 mil contract wouldn’t be worth it.

Lee, will also be Type A

so the draft picks might have some small influence too?

He most likely will be a Type A.

But we can’t be entirely assured of that. Any kind of injury next year could put either his ranking in doubt or the wisdom of offering arbitration to him.

We’ll probably get those draft picks, but there is certainly an element of risk there as well.

It would be pretty hard for him to not be type A even with injury, seeing as it's a two year sample and he threw 231 innings last year with a 3.32 ERA

Something pretty extreme would have to happen to overcome a year like that.

No

An injury preserves his ranking since Elias gives players credit for average performance during DL stints.

The only way Lee falls off Type A is if he throws an entire season of 2009 Carlos Silva.

Ah, I had forgotten that. Thanks for clarifying.
If we signed him to a deal there would still be a chance

we get a draft pick. He probably wouldn’t be good enough to be a Type A but he might be able to be a Type B FA.

Just playing around to see the effect of different outcomes

I drew up 7 different scenarios which I will designate as Overperform, Expected Results, Underperform, and then 5 different outcomes to account for the chance of injury. Then I assigned probabilities to each of these scenerios to figure out a total reasonable amount. I looked at 5 yrs because that’s what Lackey got and its probably kinda the deal length which will be expected.

Overperform Probability: 10%
WAR values: 6 / 5.5 / 5 / 4.5 / 4 = 25 WAR / $100 mil

Expected Results Probability: 50%
WAR values: 5 / 4.5 / 4 / 3.5 / 3 = 20 WAR / $80 mil

Underperform Probability: 15%
WAR values: 3.5 / 2.5 / 2 / 1.5 / 1 = 10.5 WAR / $42 mil

Year 1 injury Probability: 5%
WAR values: 2.5 / 0 / 2 / 1.5 / 1 = 7 WAR / $28 mil

Year 2 injury Probability: 5%
WAR values: 5 / 2.25 / 0 / 0.75 / 0.25 = 8.25 WAR / $33 mil

Year 3 injury Probability:5%
WAR values: 5 / 4.5 / 2 / 0 / 0.5 = 12 WAR / $48 mil

Year 4 injury Probability: 5%
WAR values: 5 / 4.5 / 4 / 1.75 / 0 = 15.25 WAR / $61 mil

Year 5 injury Probability: 5%
WAR values: 5 / 4.5 / 4 / 3.5 / 1.5 = 18.5 WAR / $74 mil

When you do the math and take into account all these probabilities, you come up with a figure saying that a 5yr and $68.5 million deal would make sense. The probabilities and scenarios are pretty arbitrary but you can see that the injury risk really decreases the overall value of the deal by about $10 mil. I think the numbers I used were at least decent guesses and pessimistic enough seeing as I predicted that Lee would miss 1.5 seasons with a injury plus have lasting loss in performance in 25% of the outcomes.

I also can take what I did and cut down the contract length to figure out what would be fair for shorter contracts. Here is what I get:
5yr / $69 mil (17.1 WAR)
4yr / $60 mil (14.9 WAR)
3yr / $49 mil (12.1 WAR)
2yr / $35 mil (8.7 WAR)
1yr / $19 mil (4.75 WAR)

Playing around with the percentages even if you change things by +/- 5-10% doesn’t really change the end results much. Anyway, kind of shows a little bit of the effect injury risks can have on these contracts. I thought the effect would be a little bigger than what I saw.

That looks fairly reasonable.

Obviously, some guess work in there but I’m sure it’s ballpark. You’d have to balance that against the expected return of draft picks if they chose not to extend him. It doesn’t make a huge difference, maybe about $5 MM. That would make a 4 year deal worth around $55 million, for example.

I think there would still be a very small chance he would be a type A

after the end of the deal and at least could give type B status. There isn’t a guarantee that Type A gives 1st rd picks either. But yeah, draft picks are worth a few million.

The 5.5 and 5 win marks for 2010 and 2011

already have some built in injury regression.

Really? I always assumed it was more for just decline in ability.

It seems to me that 0.5 WAR isn’t enough to balance the risk of injury in a long term SP deal where an injury could destroy the pitcher’s ability for the rest of the deal.

You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of Lookout Landing to post a comment.