Matthew has a Willingham post below this one.
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Jose Lopez has been the subject of trade rumors all offseason long. And those rumors, unlike a Jose Lopez fly ball, have gotten some air under them. He knows it, too. There have been whispers of inquiries and possibilities since the winter began, and even yesterday, on the radio with Brock and Salk, Dave said that, even though it's January, he wouldn't be surprised to wake up next week and find out that Lopez has been dealt away.
People are aware of these rumors and some segment of the population probably even takes them for granted. Every time they come up, though, they always seem to be met with the same majority response: trade Jose Lopez and you cripple the offense.
It's easy to see where these people are coming from. Lopez was second on the team in home runs a year ago, and first in RBI by a significant margin. Whenever the Mariners had a big inning, it seemed like Lopez was involved with most of them, and indeed, he was a big part of what made this lineup...not click. Plod? He was a big part of what made this lineup plod. People realize that, and so they see trading Lopez as trading away one of the team's only solid bats.
These fears are reasonable. The Mariners are pretty light on offense. Jose Lopez can hit. Ergo, trading Lopez hurts the lineup. When you already have a weakness, fans are generally loath to make it worse, which dealing Lopez would do. However, while reasonable, those fears overstate the hypothetical's impact. Trading Jose Lopez doesn't cripple anything, and, as part of a larger series of moves, may not hurt the offense at all.
.272 - 25 - 96. Superficially, Lopez is productive, especially given the ballpark. But as should come as a surprise to exactly no one around these parts, those three numbers don't tell the whole story, and here's the biggest reason why:
2.9%
Jose Lopez drew an unintentional walk in just 2.9% of his plate appearances, tied for fifth-worst in baseball out of 284 guys to collect at least 300 PAs. Hitters don't necessarily need to walk a lot to be great, but they do need to compensate by hitting for plus average or plus power, which Lopez doesn't do. As such, he's not nearly as good as his surface numbers would have you believe.
Lopez's wOBA last season was .325, putting him between Andy LaRoche and AJ Pierzynski. Now, in fairness, that's neither adjusted for park nor adjusted for the low .274 BABIP, so it sells him a little short. But then, the year before last he came in at .328 with a .311 BABIP, and the year before that he was completely terrible. So it's not like he has a track record on his side. All the positive talk about Lopez is based on one single season in which he swung the bat like an above-average hitter.
Projections, as you know, consider more than single seasons. Jose Lopez's projected 2010 wOBA by the four systems available on Fangraphs: .324, .331, .321, .326. In word form: average. Even taking into consideration his age and recent improvement, Lopez projects as a roughly league-average hitter, which...well, our offense isn't so bad that we should bemoan that sort of loss.
But let's say you don't believe the projections. Let's say you believe in Lopez's 2009. Let's say you believe in his power and you believe in his ability to maintain his gains going forward. If you adjust his numbers for luck and environment, then you end up with a wOBA way up around....345, putting him in the company of names like Adam Jones and Marlon Byrd.
Fine hitters, to be sure. .345 is a good level of production. But .345 sends a message entirely different from that of 25-96. .345 means you're about eight runs better than average, and that's a level that - while meaningful - isn't extraordinary.
Consider what happens if the Mariners trade Jose Lopez for, say, a pitcher. Let's leave out the possibility that they trade him for someone with a stick. If the Mariners trade Lopez for an arm, then the immediate consequence is that either Jack Hannahan or, I suppose, Matt Tuiasosopo step in as the second base replacement. What's the difference over a full season between Lopez and either in-house alternative?
If you believe that Lopez is set to repeat his 2009 performance, then the difference comes out to about 20 runs. That's if you think Lopez sustains his gains and neither Hannahan nor Tui (nor, I guess, Dustin Ackley) step up. If you believe that Lopez gives a little back, then the gap drops to 10-15.
But let's err towards 20, just to be safe. How significant are 20 runs, really, when you're expected to score somewhere around 675 or 725 or so? The easy answer is "two wins". Everybody's familiar with the 10 runs = 1 win rule of thumb, so that's the immediate response. What people who're against trading Lopez will tell you, however, is that those 20 runs have a bigger impact on a weaker lineup than they do on a stronger one. They'll tell you that you have to consider context, and that losing a Lopez-level bat would hurt us more than it would hurt, say, the Yankees.
Technically, that's a valid argument. But observe the difference in Pythagorean record for the following three offenses when you subtract 20 runs, assuming 700 runs allowed:
650 runs: -2.3 wins
750 runs: -2.0 wins
850 runs: -1.7 wins
Context matters, but the effect is so small as to be borderline negligible. For all intents and purposes, 20 runs mean approximately the same thing to any lineup in baseball.
So if you believe in Jose Lopez's 2009, and the Mariners trade him away for a pitcher, then the immediate consequence is that the offense - just the offense - will be projected to contribute about two fewer wins' worth of value. Those are two important wins, but by no means is it a crippling loss, especially when you consider that we're presumably only trading Lopez if it means we're improving somewhere else. And if you think that Lopez's power regresses a little, or you like Hannahan, or whatever, then the impact is even smaller.
Crippling? Not at all. Trading Jose Lopez hurts the offense, but it doesn't hurt it very much, as Lopez's inability to consistently reach base prevents him from achieving a higher level of productivity. And then you haven't even thought about what comes next. Trade Lopez for an arm and the team may go ahead and choose to add a second baseman rather than play what's in-house. And considering the league-average second baseman has posted a .331 wOBA over the last few years, there's reason to believe that, in the end, the offense wouldn't even take a hit. That the Mariners could trade Lopez away and end up with just as strong a lineup as before.
Of course, I've just spent an hour challenging an argument that misses the point with an argument that misses the point. It's never - never ever ever - just about the offense, or the defense, or the pitching. It's about everything. What matters isn't what effect trading Jose Lopez would have on the offense. What matters is what effect trading Jose Lopez would have on the team. At the end of the day, that's what we need to be measuring.
But there are enough people who're focusing on the lineup that I feel like this is a post that had to be written. In an ideal world, people would only worry about how various transactions affect a given team's overall value. However, we don't live there yet, so in this circumstance, it's worth taking the time to ease some smaller-picture concerns. If the Mariners elect to trade Jose Lopez, they will do in an effort to improve the team. Even if you look at the offense and the offense only, though, it's still not a big loss. The difference between Jose Lopez and his immediate replacements at the plate simply isn't that huge, and there's reason to believe that, should the front office then choose to bring in another second baseman, the lineup wouldn't be worse off at all.
0 recs | 37 comments
Dave sleeps for a week?
That’s odd.
I Lick Squirrels - January 22, 2010
That's why he talks so fast
He has to condense a normal amount of words into an abnormal amount of waking hours.
Jeff Sullivan - January 22, 2010
Are you spreading lies again?
Dewey N - January 22, 2010
I don't know, it has a sort of truthiness to it.
JAH - January 22, 2010
It passes the smell test
killer_ewok18 - January 23, 2010 via mobile
Could you teach someone plate discipline?
Is there any stories out there of someone being a notorious free swinger, like Lopez and having someone show them the way?
I feel like I’m one of the only one’s out there that would’nt mind keeping Lopez around.
Andrew E - January 22, 2010
Maybe Ichiro can
Alexander Calloway - January 22, 2010
He's too busy designing t-shirts.
Andrew E - January 22, 2010
I suppose it's possible.
But we all saw how that went with Yuni…
ThundaPC - January 22, 2010
I was a big fan of Jose Lopez before I got mlb.tv
Dewey N - January 22, 2010
That's what I heard.
.Taylor - January 23, 2010
It's difficult. Plate discipline is equally a skill and a mindset.
And it’s very hard to convince someone coming off 25 home runs to change their mindset at the plate for instance.
Also, not you are not even close to being the only one. Thousands of words have been written on this site alone about Jose Lopez’s value to this team.
Matthew - January 22, 2010
I
Coug1990 - January 22, 2010
Let me try that again
I have no evidence, but I would guess if plate discipline could be taught, it would be in the lower minor leagues. Someone that has been in baseball as long as Lopez likely would be too set in his ways to change that mindset.
Someone just coming into professional baseball in the minor leagues would be more likely willing to listen and learn.
Coug1990 - January 22, 2010
Also failure at that level is recoverable...
Once you’re in the majors really learning a new approach is likely to be disastrous. Unless it makes you instantly better, the adjustment period could destroy your career.
In the minors there’s much more leeway for bad seasons, the competition is weak enough that you won’t necessarily be destroyed for trying something different, and players are desperate to figure out how make the majors.
Sidi - January 22, 2010
Sorry Mathew, I'm new to this site, I have'nt read all the Jose post or comments.
I guess pitchers discover new pitches or whatever, I was just hoping maybe lopez (he’s still young) could maybe work on plate discipline.
Andrew E - January 23, 2010
I haven't heard much about opening up 2B for Ackley.
That’s another part of moving Lopez that has to be considered, getting someone on a one year deal and having the position available going into ’11.
coreyjro - January 22, 2010
"The Great Jose Lopez Myth "
he doesn’t really exist?!?
msb - January 22, 2010
Jose Lopez does exsist.
But like Paul Bunyan the facts about Jose Lopez’s power numbers have become more myth and story then reality.
Like the real Paul Bunyan was really like 6’ 10" tall not 20’ tall and Babe the Bull Ox was really a mix race prostitute who traveled with him. Jose Lopez’s power numbers are kind of the same thing.
mark sobba - January 22, 2010
Sell high.
Alternatively, sell now.
Spider Jerusalem - January 22, 2010
Jeff, I think this post is based on an intellectual dishonesty.
Not everyone who opposes the idea trading Lopez is mesmerized by his home runs and RBIs last year. It’s unfair to treat us as such.
I think where you’re right is assuming that no trade would be made without an overall improvement to the team. Even though over the winter many posters have seemed simply to want him gone. Fortunately, the front office is better than that.
But where I also take issue is your close, where you say, “…if you look at offense and offense only…”. Why do that? Shouldn’t all facets of value be taken into account? For example, I would suggest that replacing him with Hudson would give you less defense…or with Felipe Lopez would give you less offense.
Shouldn’t the bottom line argument be that whatever is lost by trading Lopez (including affordability) should be more than offset by whatever is added?
I think replacing Lopez’s full value to the team is more difficult that a lot of people assume. Otherwise it would have already been done.
diderot - January 22, 2010
I suggest re-reading the post.
Matthew - January 22, 2010
All of it, to be clear.
Including the parts such as (emphasis mine)
Matthew - January 22, 2010
Thank you
Jeff Sullivan - January 23, 2010
Actually, I did read all the post. And remembered pretty much all of it.
Which makes me wonder why you concluded with the concept of an ideal world where people considered overall value…and then you didn’t.
diderot - January 22, 2010
I didn't write this. Jeff did.
I won’t speak for Jeff, but I’ll hazard a guess based on his words that the reason for the conclusion, nay, the entire post was:
And use the reply button.
Matthew - January 22, 2010
Thank you
Jeff Sullivan - January 23, 2010
Really it just depends on what you can get for Jose Lopez (obviously).
We are operating under a fixed budget right now with not much wiggle room.
Jose Lopez is only making 2.3 million next year. We are expecting him to provide about 2 WAR. That’s about 1 million per win. If we signed a pitcher who projected to be a 2 WAR player for 2.3 million we’d be ecstatic. He’s also only paid 4.5 million the next year. I think it might be a little conservative but we can assume he is a 2 WAR player for the next two years giving use 4 WAR for $6.8 million. (Lopez probably would be a Type B FA also)
In return for Lopez you need to get equal or more value to make the trade worth it since we have replacement players behind him and probably have some SP that are slightly above replacement level. With Cliff Lee on the team, we are looking to win this year more than next year or the far future so we want to get players in return that can help the team now. If we had a clear replacement for Lopez that could provide a good value then it might make more sense to trade him but you don’t just trade a good player because he doesn’t fit your team style.
I just doubt we would be able to get fair return in a trade. There aren’t many spots out there where I see a fit for Lopez that makes sense for both teams.
Edgar for Pres - January 22, 2010
It's not just who Lopez is traded for, however.
It’s that player (either a SP or a righty OF), plus one of the available 2B options (all of whom have to be considered upgrades). With Lopez cleared out, the M’s are free to pursue Orlando Hudson, et al., so we’re not looking at an internal replacement.
Spider Jerusalem - January 22, 2010
Its also tough for me to get excited about Orlando Hudson who everybody is excited about to be his replacement.
I’d assume he’s probably gonna be pretty cheap which is nice ($3-5 mil) which is nice but its not super cheap. Basically he looks like a nice 2B option who can give high OBP but I see a lot of little stuff that makes me worry a little.
-He’s getting old and this shows up in the numbers. He shouldn’t age horribly (and hasn’t so far) but you can’t beat Father Time.
-His defense is slipping and is now probably -5<x<0.
-His power appears to be slipping. His ISO is falling and HR/FB are both dropping slightly. He isn’t gonna see any improvement here.
-His BABIP is pretty high. He hits a ton of groundballs which helps support a high BABIP but at some point a 33 yr old stops getting hits off of GB. Since he doesn’t have that many infield hits its not like he’s beating throws out so I feel like there must be some luck here supporting his BABIP. 55% GB and only 4.8% IFH, there is something fishy here but I don’t know what.
He’s not a bad player but if you had to ask me which player has a better chance of being a 2.5 WAR player next year I’d probably say Lopez.
Edgar for Pres - January 22, 2010
I'm in complete agreement with this.
If anything, replacing Lopez with Hudson would be a defensive downgrade. Hudson has a reputation as a good defender and Lopez isn’t flashy so I can see how some people might think it would improve the defense, but the numbers point to a clear decline in Hudson’s skills. If Loafie does get traded, I’d much prefer that Felipe Lopez be brought in as his replacement rather than Hudson.
I Lick Squirrels - January 22, 2010
Hudson was just an example,
and one of the names that’s been bandied about. I don’t really have an opinion on him specifically one way or another, just that a Lopez trade should probably be looked at how Jack Z and his crew are looking at it: the first domino allowing a series of moves.
Spider Jerusalem - January 22, 2010
Good point, though
It doesn’t look like there’s a whole lot of difference between Jose Lopez and Orlando Hudson or Felipe Lopez in production you can expect next year. CHONE projects 2.2 WAR for Hudson and 2.6 WAR for Lopez, so it seems to be a bit of a downgrade, if anything. For that matter, Hudson will probably cost more and will be in his age 32 season, where Lopez will be in his age 27 season and still a bargain in terms of his contract.
Felipe Lopez does look a little better than Hudson in terms of age, though roughly equivalent in terms of value, again by CHONE. Felipe Lopez is still older than Jose, though. While Jose Lopez may be near his peak because of his skillset, it doesn’t look like he’s going to go into his decline phase soon, and while he’s under contract for such good value he’s a valuable piece.
Davey86 - January 22, 2010
"we are looking to win this year more than next year or the far future"
I really doubt that. Everything they’ve done and said seems to suggest they’d like to improve their team in the future just as much as they want to improve it this year. This isn’t a “win-it-all-now” strategy they’re following.
nathaniel dawson - January 23, 2010
Trading Lopez might help
I’m with Spider, re: You’ve got to look at the affect on the team as a whole of trading Lopez. I would consider Liriano/Hudson, to take one possibility discussed elsewhere, as an upgrade over Lopez. (Liriano/Hudson would cost more, which is an obvious factor to consider, but I’d still do it.)
joe simpson can hit - January 22, 2010
newbie post
sorry, this belongs with the above subthread
joe simpson can hit - January 22, 2010
It all depends on the return...
Lopez is a good talent and a good contract. I mean, yeah, if we can get Liriano, Hudson, and a decent RHLF then I’m ok with a trade. Or Willingham, Hudson, and Wang or something. But trading Lopez just opens up another hole, and it seems hard to get full value on Lopez in a trade given what average-ish 2Bs have been getting this offseason.
lailaihei - January 22, 2010
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