A few more details have leaked out and this seems solid enough to write about now.
MARINERS SEND:
Bill Hall
A Minor League PTBNL
Cash
MARINERS RECEIVE:
Casey Kotchman
Kotchman is 2nd year arbitration-eligible and made just under $3 million last year. Since this is how arbitration works, expect him to get a raise to about the $3 million range. He'll be a free agent after 2011 should he be tendered a contract after 2010.
Analysis on Kotchman to follow and grading the deal later if/when we get better word on the minor leaguer (Josh Fields, anyone?) and how much cash (probably a million and change).
0 recs | 192 comments
This might actually be a good trade
OlSalty - January 5, 2010
Dud, we had to give up Hall
Poochie - January 5, 2010
We're 20% less black now :(
Matthew - January 5, 2010
There is still time to fix that.
Robert - January 5, 2010
Bill Hall was a gift from god
Poochie - January 5, 2010
I was on a different continent for the majority of his Mariner career so he is but a myth to me.
Robert - January 5, 2010
What would the Sox want with Bill Hall?
waldo rojas - January 5, 2010
Someone to spell Drew/Ellisbury against LHP?
Poochie - January 5, 2010
They can use a pencil or a keyboard or heaven forbid a typewriter.
qrsouther - January 5, 2010
Conspiring to prove Jack Zduriencik hates black people?
edddgar - January 5, 2010
I think that's a difficult argument to make for someone who just traded for Milton Bradley.
…On the other hand; Even Jefferson Davis would’ve traded Carlos Silva for him.
Adam B - January 5, 2010
The Red Sox don't currently have any black players, right?
I imagine they might want one. You know, so the Boston fans can see what they look like in real life.
I Lick Squirrels - January 5, 2010
Cammy is blacker than my iTouch
Jeff Sullivan - January 5, 2010
iTouches have a silver side.
Robert - January 5, 2010
Corresponding to the metal plate in Cammy's head
Jeff Sullivan - January 5, 2010
Intentional?
Robert - January 5, 2010
What do you think
Jeff Sullivan - January 5, 2010
Yes
Dewey N - January 5, 2010
My phone is black and sliver to So I am reasonably confident he Sullivan'd his way onto this one
Poochie - January 5, 2010
Shall we ask Fogel?
Dewey N - January 5, 2010
No
Poochie - January 5, 2010
I am so tired of asking Fogel
Poochie - January 5, 2010
Well think up something better.
Robert - January 5, 2010
Let's ask Poochie
Poochie - January 5, 2010
We're not David Berkowitz
Dewey N - January 5, 2010
Oh yeah my bad
Poochie - January 5, 2010
It's times like these when I wish the blog had adopted an elephant instead of a mutt
Dewey N - January 5, 2010
We had an elephant. his name was Stampy, you loved him very much.
Poochie - January 5, 2010
Let's ask Gomez
Robert - January 5, 2010
Pssh like he can answer
Poochie - January 5, 2010
So far it's his best answer yet.
Robert - January 5, 2010
I think Fogel is still watching the 8th inning of a game
Jeff Sullivan - January 5, 2010
I bet it's a baseball game
Poochie - January 5, 2010
I'll let you know the final score when it's over boss
Dewey N - January 5, 2010
9-0 Indians
We should just DFA Batista
Dewey N - January 5, 2010
I think it was not intentional
Poochie - January 5, 2010
I like how your unintentional jokes get 50xs the laughs than the ones that Matthew thinks out for hours.
Robert - January 5, 2010
I am pretty sure my two hemispheres work independent of one another
Jeff Sullivan - January 5, 2010
It's like the beaning gave you superpowers
Poochie - January 5, 2010
I bet I could fix him with another.
Robert - January 5, 2010
That's technically not a superpower.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
You may know it by it's other term, schizophrenia.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
its
abender20 - January 5, 2010
Oh snap
Poochie - January 5, 2010
?
Poochie - January 5, 2010
Cammy shines with the glow of wonderfulness.
msb - January 5, 2010
Christ, how did I forget him?
Maybe they’re just stocking up on blacks since they didn’t have any last year and consequently sucked.
I Lick Squirrels - January 5, 2010
Cammy is blacker than Teej
Jeff Sullivan - January 5, 2010
Okay, that's cool..
I have tickets to the USSM event, and I am going to give you a little heads up. I’m going to stand up, in front of the entire auditorium, and ask Jeff why he is a racist. Awkward – even if I wasn’t black. Whether you are racist or not is of little consequence. 17 bucks well spent ;) I wouldn’t push it either, Graham.
MarinerHawk - January 5, 2010
Wouldn't even be the most ackward question that Jeff's been asked at one of these.
Robert - January 5, 2010
And I will respond by openly wondering who invited the dyke
Jeff Sullivan - January 5, 2010
I think Jeff is actually being racial and not racist
Dewey N - January 5, 2010
It's my goal in life to teach people the difference between the two of these.
Robert - January 5, 2010
I guess I have to leave this tab open now just incaseies
Poochie - January 5, 2010
Yeah I beat you to this reference
Poochie - January 5, 2010
Here's the deal
I don’t care if you don’t like my moderating decisions*, because they’re mine to take and not yours. I have explained the situation to you in what I believe to be a rational and levelheaded manner, and you insist on trying to escalate things. So get over it, or you won’t be posting much longer.
And if you want to call Jeff a racist in front of the auditorium, feel free to look like a random shouting crazy man because the audience is going to be un-miked.
*I care enough to explain things, but no more.
Graham MacAree - January 5, 2010
He's decent enough, but I'd still like to add a bat at catcher or left field
Poochie - January 5, 2010
Working on my post right now
Jeff Sullivan - January 5, 2010
Knock em dead boss
Poochie - January 5, 2010
I don't mind losing Hall
I guess this means we won’t be getting Branyan though.
zeeehjee - January 5, 2010
There's still the DH spot
edddgar - January 5, 2010
Griffey
That would be 2 lefties, correct?
zeeehjee - January 5, 2010
Three
Poochie - January 5, 2010
Griffey's ass isn't THAT big
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
Says the guy who noticed it from the 2nd deck.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
Black people don't all look alike
GOD
Poochie - January 5, 2010
So wait..
I call some old lady with a crew-cut a lesbo, and it gets deleted, but racist jokes are okay?
Someone the other day said we should move the team to Compton. Personally, I laughed, but just wondering why that is okay but “lesbo” is off-limits.
MarinerHawk - January 5, 2010
I think this is the first correct usage of "racist joke" ever on this site
Poochie - January 5, 2010
Because Poochie doesn't sound actually racist
Robert - January 5, 2010
Because context matters.
Matthew - January 5, 2010
Elaborate
MarinerHawk - January 5, 2010
You were actually being homophobic whereas Poochie was poking fun at people's racism.
That’s a pretty clear difference.
Aaron Campeau - January 5, 2010
Homophobic? The word "lesbo?"
You’re pretty clearly a pussy.
MarinerHawk - January 5, 2010
Ahahahahaha
Aaron Campeau - January 5, 2010
But at least your music sucks!
MarinerHawk - January 5, 2010
So there's a rule about unwarrented hostility and I like ac a lot more than I like you
Graham MacAree - January 5, 2010
Fair enough..
For the record, I’m a big fan of your work, and was very excited when Tony Blengino gave you a shout-out.. But, still, calling me homophobic is a bit of stretch, and in my opinion, the hostility was not unwarranted (that’s actually how it’s spelled)..
MarinerHawk - January 5, 2010
I am not about to get involved in a flame war with you, but you seriously don't think your response to me was uncalled for?
Aaron Campeau - January 5, 2010
I know how to spell unwarranted
I also happen to be massively dyslexic, which is fun. I also doubt that you’re homophobic, but your comment was, which is what ac was saying in the first place.
Graham MacAree - January 5, 2010
I hid your comment because
a) it wasn’t funny
b) it was therefore pointlessly homophobic
Graham MacAree - January 5, 2010
It was funny..
I think most people would think it was funny and not homophobic. It’s a picture of the “female in question” holding the “In Jack We Trust” sign, and I said “Some Lesbo beat ya to it!” – That’s for those reading this with no clue what we’re talking about. – I am not a homophobe, and it was clearly a joke, because this woman has some stereotypical lesbian features. It doesn’t mean she’s a lesbian, which is also nothing to be ashamed of. But regardless, who cares? I was just questioning why lesbians are suddenly off limits for humor but an entire race of people is just fine to poke fun at.
All that said, I am arguing with two people with a combined 60,000 comments on just this site alone.. I need to snap back into reality and see what my kids are getting in to..
MarinerHawk - January 5, 2010
Necessary!
Jeff Sullivan - January 5, 2010
Lesbians are not off-limits for joking purposes
But again, the unwritten rule here is that if you’re going to make an offensive joke, it has to be funny. Since the standards for funny are subjective, some things will get hidden that the author thought were hilarious, and some things will stay that offend others.
Graham MacAree - January 5, 2010
So a couple of dykes walk into a bar, right..
MarinerHawk - January 5, 2010
I really wouldn't push it at this point
Graham MacAree - January 5, 2010
And as I actually know the woman in question, not such a humorous joke.
msb - January 5, 2010
You had about five comments total here at the time.
Poochie has several thousand. We, being the moderators, are familiar enough with his manner to know when he’s joking. You, we do not.
That’s how it goes. Context is important and the author of a comment is important context.
Matthew - January 5, 2010
Also, he was referring to a specific woman that did nothing to anyone that someone on LL knows personally.
Rather than a generic blanket statement that is clearly made in jest.
CapSea - January 5, 2010
I'm an old lady with a crew-cut. I also happen to be a lesbian.
I’ve been a lurker on this site for a couple of years and only recently started to post comments. I love jokes that are funny. I don’t really appreciate remarks that are homophobic or racist; they just sound ignorant. I can get that on the bus. I come hear for good discussions about baseball, jokes are a bonus and I’m not that fond of bus rides.
TrustBaseball - January 5, 2010
Who is our RH bat to come off the bench now?
And your kidding about Fields, right?
EnglishMariner - January 5, 2010 via mobile
Sorry, 'you're'.
EnglishMariner - January 5, 2010 via mobile
Please don't be a prospect thats gonna sting to lose
russak - January 5, 2010
Probably wont be.
ARock - January 5, 2010
Hall for Kotchman seems fair enough. Fields would be too much.
mark sobba - January 5, 2010
Does anyone hate this trade as much as me?
Only way I anticipate liking it is if we’re sending several million less than the Brewers are sending us.
coreyjro - January 5, 2010
How can you hate it if you don't know the particulars?
waldo rojas - January 5, 2010
If Kotchman is going to be our everyday 1B...
it’s going to take a lot for me to not hate it.
coreyjro - January 5, 2010
How about if Kotchman is going to be our 1B for basically free
Because we sennd less money with Hall than we got with him?
ARock - January 5, 2010
Theoretically we were paying Bill Hall $1MM?
Or the league minimum? I don’t recall.
coreyjro - January 5, 2010
About 1.4mil from us
7.1mil from Milwaukee
OlSalty - January 5, 2010
If we're paying Kotchman $1.4MM
I could see it financially, but it’s going to take some maneuvering to get more wins on the field. I’m not comfortable penciling Kotchman in for more than 1 WAR.
coreyjro - January 5, 2010
The cash is what matters most and we don't know that yet
OlSalty - January 5, 2010
I don't like it unless it somehow frees up money for us by sending less than we got from MIL.
And I hope the prospect will be a non-prospect.
EnglishMariner - January 5, 2010 via mobile
It seems like a safe bet that the $$ being sent over is ~equal the difference in salaries.
CapSea - January 5, 2010
If this ends up being us filling our 1B hole with a ~1.5 win player for 'almost free'...
Then I like it. Good value and it saves the money for starting pitching.
If this ends up being us paying almost as much in the end for Kotchman as we would have for Branyan, then I dont like it.
ARock - January 5, 2010
I hope this means we're spending money on another starter.
Manzanillos Cup - January 5, 2010
I heard Joel Pineiro is available
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
:)
:)
:)
Poochie - January 5, 2010
A starter not named Joel Piniero.
Maybe one with a name that rhymes with ‘Beets’
ARock - January 5, 2010
I like Pineiro
Provided the contract is reasonable.
CapSea - January 5, 2010
I like your mom
provided the price is reasonable.
zeeehjee - January 5, 2010
This is the most hilarious and clever joke, ever.
You, sir, are a genius of comedy.
CapSea - January 5, 2010
Word.
zeeehjee - January 5, 2010
And said word.
skwid206 - January 5, 2010
I thought I was the only one who still made mom jokes.
skwid206 - January 5, 2010
I just doubt that it would be reasonable
ARock - January 5, 2010
So is Beluga Tits.
Adam B - January 5, 2010
But Joel Pineiro was good last year
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
It's almost like no one pays attention to anything
Poochie - January 5, 2010
Holy shit Garrett Olson threw 50 innings with a tRA of 8.8 last year, good for 20 runs below average
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
And I heard he's DTF, too.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
I know a run is a run, but dammit I don't want to be the Angels.
Dingers!
Teej - January 5, 2010
I want to be the Angels...
They made the playoffs a nubmer of years in a row.
ARock - January 5, 2010
I want to do it in a less annoying way.
I guess it would be fun to root for the team annoying everyone else, but it makes me feel dirty.
Teej - January 5, 2010
Maybe Paul Sorrento is available
Poochie - January 5, 2010
If money is ~equal and prospect isn't too valuable
Great deal in my opinion. Bill Hall was essentially obligated to be on the roster and not filling any role whatsoever except backup-backup IF/OF. Kotchman could be a 1B platoon partner, or start if Z can’t find anything else.
Fuckmikereilly - January 5, 2010
It's nice to have a utility guy who doesn't come with Willie Bloomquist's bat
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
And a guy who once upon a time not long ago (when people wore pajamas and lived life slow)
had tantalizing power.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
Over the last last two years
Bill Hall has had a ~.280 wOBA in ~800 PA, while Bloomquist posted a ~.305 wOBA in ~650 PA.
Terminator X - January 5, 2010
I'm sold. Let's bring Willie back.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
It's like a ten run difference and .305 is Willie's upside
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
Not saying which I'd rather have, just giving the numbers.
Bill Hall has been a worse hitter than Bloomquist over the last years, and over fairly significant PA numbers. Hall hasn’t been better with the bat than Willie in several years
Terminator X - January 5, 2010
I like the idea of Kotchman platooning or backing up old-man Branyan.
Kotchman as our opening day first baseman on the other hand, no thank you.
katal - January 5, 2010
If it allows us the flexibility to acquire a better starting pitcher or catcher
then I can live with Kotchman as the starting 1B. Not ideal, obviously.
Fuckmikereilly - January 5, 2010
Mr. Cameron said on the radio a few weeks ago something like this:
The M’s could use a stop gap at first base and if in contention may go after someone like Alex Gonzalez again when such teams might be more open to a trade.
I think Kotchman is a decent stop gap and looks like we are not giving up anything that isn’t replaceable. If we are in contention, we can move Kotchman without worry as well.
mark sobba - January 5, 2010
I absolutely don't want to deal Fields.
That said, no matter who we trade in addition to Hall, I’m looking forward to FanGraphs’s analysis of our top ten prospects. With the exception of a few names on top, our farm system is starting to appear barren.
katal - January 5, 2010
1.) ACKLEYACKLEYACKLEYACKLEY
2-10.) Who cares?
abender20 - January 5, 2010
True en fell
Poochie - January 5, 2010
Tree un fell?
abender20 - January 5, 2010
Trien eff full
Poochie - January 5, 2010
It's not that bad
Ackley, Moore, Triunfel, Poythress, Nick Hill… there’s some interesting players.
arbeck77 - January 5, 2010
If Nick Hill is in your top five, your farm system isn't very good
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
I'm not sure he is
But I was just naming people off the top of my head.
arbeck77 - January 5, 2010
Moore, too.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
It's still pretty thin with respect to the rest of the league.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
It's in the bottom third
Graham MacAree - January 5, 2010
At least it isn't the Cubs.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
It's not like Z really emptied out too much though.
I think “starting to appear barren” isn’t really fair. Also, it appears to be worse than it actually is, given the draft picks we’ll get for Lee.
Fuckmikereilly - January 5, 2010
Who may not make an impact in our farm system until 2012 depending on when they sign with the team
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
True.
I guess my point was, a lot of what makes the system look weak was the loss of Ramirez and Aumont, two of our top 7ish prospects. But few would call the Lee deal a bad one because of those picks.
Fuckmikereilly - January 5, 2010
The deal certainly wasn't bad, but it definitely hurt our prospect depth
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
Saunders
Graham MacAree - January 5, 2010
Fields, Pineda
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
Thank you for cheering me up.
katal - January 5, 2010
If Saunders counts as a prospect then I don't think Moore should.
Michael will at least be spending a lot of 2010 in Tacoma. That doesn’t seem to be the case with Adam.
katal - January 5, 2010
That's not how prospect eligibility works
Graham MacAree - January 5, 2010
What's the definition of a prospect, then? "Good young player?"
I usually take it to mean minor leaguer, but I’ve also seen it referred to players that are under a certain age.
katal - January 5, 2010
Usually I use it as any player who hasn't exhausted rookie eligibility
so like 140 PAs or 50 IP (or something like that)
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
Makes sense.
katal - January 5, 2010
I forgot about Poythress!
There are definitely some interesting players, but it seems like we’re starting to really run low on depth. After the guys you mentioned, who’s left? Raben, who’s still a question mark. Halman, who’s high-risk, high-reward. Tui… The system’s quality plummets pretty quickly there.
katal - January 5, 2010
Nick Franklin?
abender20 - January 5, 2010
Who is 18
abender20 - January 5, 2010
Thank you for cheering me up.
katal - January 5, 2010
There are actually a tonne of interesting players in the system
They’re just not too likely to pan out
Graham MacAree - January 5, 2010
Isn't that how most prospects are?
How many can’t miss guys are there really?
arbeck77 - January 5, 2010
Well there's lots of guys like Shawn Kelley out there
who are likely to become big league players but are the walking definition of replacement-level. Most systems have lots of those guys, we have lots of “throw-against-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks” prospects
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
And then there is Greg Halman.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
We seem to have the market on mid-20's high probability, replacement level left-handed starting pitchers cornered, though
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
Which is nice.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
Carrera, Cleto, Carroll, Almonte, Halman
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
Also our midseason acquisitions of Robles, Saito, and Cortes
Simon Phoenix - January 5, 2010
Completely forgot about those guys, and all three are supposed to be interesting, at least from what I understand
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
Palabra
abender20 - January 5, 2010
I get it
gregrabble - January 5, 2010
I must have some sort of anti-Bavasi bias (crazy, I know)
Half of those names I hate, and have zero faith that they’ll ever reach the major leagues. The other names I find fun, and look foward to following their progression this summer.
katal - January 5, 2010
Pimatel, Morban.
Baron, even
Graham MacAree - January 5, 2010
If you're including Baron, I'm including Okuda.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
Nothing wrong with Okuda
Graham MacAree - January 5, 2010
I will always resent Baron.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
Pineda
Been damn impressive so far.
nathaniel dawson - January 5, 2010
Johermyn Chavez.
MFAN - January 5, 2010
Halman 2.0
BrianL - January 5, 2010
If you had ten Greg Halmans, you'd pretty much be guaranteed to get one Mike Cameron out of the bunch
it’s not the worst thing in the world
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
But we only have two Greg Halmans.
Fuckmikereilly - January 5, 2010
Well Jack has his work cut out for him then, doesn't he?
seattlebruin - January 5, 2010
I bet we could get Wlad back.
We’d have to teach him to play good defense, though.
abender20 - January 5, 2010
Better odds that one of them pans out!
katal - January 5, 2010
Casey Kotchman is ugly.
MarinerHawk - January 5, 2010
I disagree and think he is quite handsome
Dewey N - January 5, 2010
He's no Jack Hannahan.
Kermit. - January 6, 2010
So few are...
royalcurve - January 6, 2010
I don't like this trade.
If our PTBNL is anyone who matters… then it really sucks. Although I guess if that’s my definition of a trade that really sucks now then I suppose I should happy.
Kaorikaze - January 6, 2010
You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of Lookout Landing to post a comment.