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On Understanding The Kotchman Move

I thought I had something new and interesting to say until I realized that Dave beat me to it in the comments yesterday. Of course. But, whatever, it deserves a bigger post.

According to Alex Speier, or - more accurately - according to Alex Speier's source, the Mariners are going to be sending to Boston something like $7.5-8m to help pay for Bill Hall. If Kotchman gets paid as he's expected to get paid in 2010, that means we will have brought him in at a net cost of $2.5m or $3m or so.

Most people aren't big fans. Kotchman isn't a horrible player, and it's a small commitment, but most everyone had a dream scenario at 1B that in no way involved Casey Kotchman. Even those that dreamed smaller were holding out hopes for a guy like Russell Branyan, so Kotchman's underwhelming. He offers minimal improvement to a lousy offense, and limited improvement overall. In short, people wanted more.

But there's an extra element to all this that few have been talking about. The focus, rightly, has been on Kotchman. He's the guy being brought in as a regular. However, consider Bill Hall. By shipping Hall to Boston in exchange for a first baseman, the M's have left themselves with an open roster spot. They've just shifted that opening from 1B to righty OF. Before the trade, it was assumed that Hall, Ryan Langerhans, Milton Bradley, and Ken Griffey Jr. would rotate through DH and left field. Now, with Hall out of the picture, there's a need for a guy who can hit lefties and play the field to complete the picture.

Dave mentioned Xavier Nady as an option. Reed Johnson and Rocco Baldelli are out there, too, along with a host of others. And here we begin to see how this trade could make a little more sense. Because, while Kotchman isn't much of an asset, neither is Bill Hall, and by ditching the latter, room is made for an improvement. Hall hasn't hit since 2006. Last year his BB/K against lefties slipped from 0.44 to 0.14. I know he's hit lefties in the past, but there's good reason to believe that even that ability has gone missing, leaving Hall as a pretty poor player. Now the M's have a chance to get more from the role. Not a ton, but a handful of runs, and maybe even as much as a win depending on how bad you think Hall is now, who the M's get to replace him, and playing time. And that's pretty significant.

In this way, we could make sense of the Kotchman deal by seeing it as half of a pair of moves - one to fill 1B, and one to replace Hall. Neither is an earth-shaking move on its own, but, combined, the total value could be similar to what the M's could've gotten from, say, Adam LaRoche, Lyle Overbay, or Russell Branyan, and they don't have to worry about cost or, in Branyan's case, injury. Think about it. Let's take LaRoche. LaRoche wants money and a couple years, and he would've been projected to provide about two wins. Kotchman projects as a cheap 1-1.5 win player, and the opportunity exists for the M's to add a cheap half-win or so on top of Hall. Bam. Similar. All things being equal, you'd rather have LaRoche, but all things aren't equal, and the M's presumably aren't interesting in making a bigger commitment than they have to.

As Dave says in his comment, this isn't about Kotchman over the alternative first basemen. Chances are, this is about Kotchman and a righty OF over the alternative first basemen and Hall. And through that lens, it's a lot easier to stomach. I'm sure there are things about Kotchman that the organization likes, but from what I can tell, I'm guessing that's not the only reason they did this. This has given them the opportunity to get better at a position they may not have thought they could improve.

Maybe I'm wrong. It's entirely possible that Z and the rest of the front office are planning something completely different - they kind of have a knack for throwing everyone off the scent. But I think the most likely outcome is that we bring in a righty bat to split time in the outfield, and though we can't pass official judgment until we know who that hypothetical player is, I'm confident that, whoever it may turn out to be, he'll have some talent, and his addition will make this a more complete team.

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Comments

Supposedly LaRoche turned down 2 years 17million from the Giants.

If thats the case I welcome Kotchy with open arms.

Signed,
Scott Stapp

I guess that's what it would look like if Eddie Vedder and Dave Abbruzzese had a child

Sorry, Pearl Jam joke.

I vote Baldelli so we can run Rip Van Winkle jokes into the ground
They're really more funny if they are done in person
The problem with that is it causes the people around you to treat you like freaks.
So Ryan Doumit would still make lots of sense

This hypothetical bat would be nice if it was a kick ass left fielder or someone who can play both LF and 1B

And we could run GodDoumit into the ground
Re: your antepenultimate paragraph

Kotchman + Hall’s replacement are two players. Even though their combined WAR might equal an Overbay’s or a LaRoche’s, isn’t that offset by the use of two roster spots?

But in the Overbay/LaRoche situation, Hall's there too, and Hall's bad

And though you could argue that the M’s could’ve just cut Hall anyway, they wouldn’t want to eat seven figures.

Ohyeah.

Clearly. Thanks.

No, because Overbay (for example)+Hall is two roster spots
Before anyone suggests it, no, Matt Tuiasosopo does not fit into Hall's old role
If only

To listen to visiting play by play guys try unsuccessfully to pronounce his name. It might be worth it…

I still like Winn.

Even with an average bat, he’s a ~2-2.5 win player. And it’ll keep Bradley’s average fielding out of left field.

He was 1.7 WAR last year.

In the NL.

Impressive feat given how well his defense was rated
Winn might work but...

Randy Winn (switch hitter) wants a full time role and hit nothing vs LHP last year. Good fielder, good baserunner, smart player, poor arm, strong defensively. He would block Saunders initially but if Winn would be willing to play a lesser role, and returns to form vs LHP, he could be a great pickup. I prefer Baldelli (RHB)… just as good defensively with a better arm, better vs LHP &, I think, 8 years younger. Baldelli is injury prone but he would allow Saunders to play more often vs RHP.

Both would be a good pickup if they are willing to sign knowing they are expected to be a role player and not a full time player. Both would be very good 4th outfielders.

Any signing we make will block Saunders

It’s pretty clear he’s not going to be our starting LF now. But yeah, point taken.

Check his line vs LHPs last year

It will make you laugh.

Do you really think that it won't bounce back?

His BABIP against them was also miserable (.178 vs .301 for his career). His career batting line against them is decent at .280/.332/.426.

He's 35 (36 in June).

I think it is safe to assume his career isn’t on the rebound, luck be damned.

He could probably get at least to 0 RAA hitting wise.

And that’s probably the minimum. Players (albeit it’s not all that unusual) generally don’t just collapse like that.

Unless you are really really really high on his defense

Winn projects as something like a 1.5-win player. Maybe 2. Always underrated, but nearing the end.

Isn't that sort of what we're looking for?

A 1.5-2 win player? Winn would also be easy to let go if he sucks and if Saunders is tearing up AAA.

He's an option

I don’t think he’s a perfect fit, but he’s in the group.

It's really so much easier to find a plus fielder who can mash lefties specifically

rather than a meh bat, no? AAAA is full of guys like that.

Or really really high on something else
Which doesn't mean he won't bounce back.

Because he did have some miserable luck. His skills may be declining (in fact it’s safe to say they are), but generally speaking terrible luck isn’t an ongoing thing. Unless you’re Rick DiPietro, or a Pirates fan.

I don’t think he’d be a bad option, at least not in the short term.

He would have fared better had he hit against Mariano Rivera every at bat
I've always been fond of WInn,

even before I learned about the wonderful world of WAR and so on. He’s aging, but he’s still a fine player. All the same, what does Winn give you that Saunders does not?

Switch-hitting, production in the immediate
But we would only need him as a righty

since Langerhans is a better hitting/defending lefty

Not sure he's a better hitter against righties

And being able to switch-hit still helps, because you don’t get to play to your platoon in 100% of situations.

So Winn is an Old Crustacean

that was aged too long, at a little too high temp, w/ a little sun light creeping in. Saunders is a Pliny the Elder, young but good?

Is Matt Murton still hanging around?

Might be a decent option.

Just went to Japan
To play

Not on vacation

I was really excited

by your insider knowledge of Matt Murton’s personal life, and then you had to go and pop the balloon that was my dream.

Well, scratch off that idea.
Is this a lead-in to a surprise announcement this Saturday?!
I want Jack to do something hideously outrageous just to see if we have enough faith in him to wait for his next move
PLEASE WELCOME JAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY BUHHHHHHHHHHHNER!
EDGAR!
He hasn't been a useful player since 2000

and even then that seemed like a dead cat’s bounce

Who is the best defensive player available.

I want such good defense that other teams can only score on HR and walks.

Winn. ; )
I want Randy Winn then!
A RH OF we need you say?

Sounds like a job for the Washington Nationals!

Do we have another Mike Morse we can give up?
Curse you Brian!
I hear that they have this one player-I think his name is Mike Morse-who hit .492 in Spring Training

one year.

Why do you randomly end your subject lines and continue them in the text box.... Are you trying

to

     write
poetry, Coach?

Elijah Dukes would fill our black quotient

and he and Bradley might have a lot in common

That's F##ked up

Is Bradley even close to Dukes level of f##kedupedness?????

Jack Z will have earned his ghetto pass.
Out of idle curiosity, why the ## instead of uc?
Work Filters
As in

I don’t want to be the jackass that gets LL banned for someone

Honestly I think that's going to happen anyways if the filter takes comments into account

Be free.

OK, I'm naked now, are you happy?
You're fighting a losing battle but I admire you for it

I’d say EnglishMariner pretty much renders all your efforts moot.

Bradley to Mike Winters: You dead, dawg.
What's Wily Mo up to these days
I think we both know the answer to that question
Released by the Mets and still only 27!
What is Jonny Gomes not good enough for you?
He Wily could have used Mo playing time.
He and Wlad need to join Chavez and Halman on one magnificent team.
Preferably in the minors.
Balentien!
He's easily worth .3 wins. SIgn that up immediately.
Wow if we had 93 Balentins we would win the division for sure
That's too many moles.
We need to make a trade with the Nationals

How about Denny Almonte, Greg Halman, Yohermyn Chavez and Daniel Carroll for Adam Dunn and a lot of cash. It would be hilarious watching him rome LF at Safeco, while awesome watching him hit.

meant to reply to Matthew at 9:22pm

sorry

Either you were 21 hours and 11 minutes too early

or 3 hours and 49 minutes too late. Oh, and the reply button failed.

May as well just let Junior play left.
He should play center

he has 10 gold gloves.

At least Adam Dunn hits well enough to win a GG

Unlike Griffey.

I guess defense sort of matters

Winn: .262/.318/.353 1.7 WAR
Dunn: .267/.398/.529 1.8 WAR

rome = roam
whale = wail
time = thyme
jim = gym
I'll stop now = Aisle stop now
I made a stupid spelling error in my post

but yes homophones are cool

Don't worry

I’m not a grammar Nazi. Which made me realize Nazi = Not Z. Makes perfect sense, GM’s who are not Z are Nazis.

We watched Raul for years and he was almost as poor as Dunn.
You forgot to add another 10 minor league OFs to that package

Quantity=Quality…

I couldn't think of any more who fit the Nats' mold.
I bet Z would LOVE to acquire Dunn to DH

Perfect fit for the stadium. That said, I also bet he wouldn’t give up more than one C+/B- prospect for the “honor”, so it isn’t happening. Also, Dunn NEEDS to DH. He’d be 2.5 WAR or so as DH, as a 1B, not so much.

I do not understand the "Mariners send $7.5-8m to Boston" part of the deal.

Isn’t most of Hall’s salary being paid by the Brewers? I thought our committment to Hall was only $1-2m in 2010. Why would we send almost a 10th of our budget to Boston if Milwaukee’s picking up Hall’s tab?

If I understand correctly

we are passing along money sent to us by the Brewers. I could be wrong, and didn’t actually bother looking it up.

Seems it would be easier to tell Doug Melvin to make out his checks to Theo Epstein.
When someone trades a player and cash to another team, they don't get to keep the cash and send it later

The Brewers are ‘paying Hall’s salary’ only in the sense that the money used to pay Hall is still accounted for in their budget, but in reality it’s in Seattle. Now it’s in Boston.

Ah ok that makes more sense.

I was always under the assumption that these kind of deals were paid on a year to year basis.

They kinda are, but at the same time they're kinda not

It’s easier and closer to the reality of what’s actually happening to just think about money jumping around than as someone paying a player who doesn’t play for their team.

Do you have a link for this?

This is one area that I’ve always been unsure on how it works and given the nature of MLB accounting practices, have never seen solid intel on.

Oddly enough, Cot's now has the money going from the Brewers to the Red Sox.

I wouldn’t have thought that’s how it works. It makes more sense if the Brewers ’ money went to Seattle, then Seattle and Boston would agree on how much money is transferred between Seattle and Boston. What if Kotchman’s salary was more, and Seattle wanted to keep some of that money? Would Boston then have to send Seattle some money?

It's actually exactly how I figured it worked.
How much playing time was Hall expected to actually get anyway?

I can’t really imagine our 4th OF getting much playing time. Ichiro and Gutierrez are pretty much good for 162 games. LF is a little more open but with Bradley and Saunders, the OF is pretty much accounted for.

How much value can a right handed OF bring to this team if he doesn’t really get the playing time?

Presumably

Hall and Langerhans would have split LF as essentially a platoon. Also, some days Bradley would play LF and Griffey would DH.

So this RH hitter is essentially taking all of his AB’s from a Hall/Langerhans/Griffey platoon. I’d imagine he’ll get a fair amount, especially against lefties.

Yeah makes sense if we send Saunders for another year in AAA
Too bad Jeremy Hermida is LH
Perhaps Willy Aybar can play the OF...
I dunno

If Hermida was given away for a non-prospect/high risk-medium reward prospect, Z would bite,

Instead of signing a right handed OF...

Couldn’t we sign a right handed DH instead of a right handed OF? Push Bradley to LF when we face LHP.

Not that it helps that much but Vlad comes to mind as. Just another option right?

Not just vlad (just an example)
Can't have two Griffeys and one of your four OF's be as fragile as Bradley
Yeah I totally get that fear.
Well

We can forget Vlad anyway.

It's not clear that Vlad is interested.
He's a bad fit
I think the main thing about these paying trades is that it always feels weird to give away a lot of money.

Especially when there are free agents out there and you’re trying to ink Felix. I know that money has no correlation with potential Felix money, but it feels like it could be. Stupid gut. Making me feel all Geoff Baker-y.

I see this line of thinking and its solid

but I think the problem is that a platooned RH outfielder will have a hard time accruing enough playing time to provide any significant amount of value. Bill Hall’s value came not as an outfielder but from his extreme flexibility. If his bat really is a dud then clearing his roster spot was a good move, but if there is any life left in it his versatility would make him more valuable than a Reed Johnson simply because he can log innings at short.

Can I resume calling him "Casey Krotchman" if he starts off poorly?
Why would he need to start off poorly for you to do this?
Only if he also starts a web series counting down the top 40 porno clips of the week.
I guess his funk blasts will have to be Krotch shots

really there’s a lot of very obvious, uncreative punnery to be had here. We have to do better.

But very obvious, uncreative punnery is what we're best at.
Kotchman must be concerned, however, now as a Mariner.

All former Mariners seem to go to Casey.

You can call him Casey Kotchblock when he makes a good play.
Reed Johnson?
He's a baseball player who is currently a free agent.

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