Back in January 2005, the Mariners signed an all-glove free agent infielder to hold down the shortstop position until someone like Mike Morse or Yuniesky Betancourt was ready to take it over. All available evidence said that his glove was among the best in the league, and while there was less to go on then than there is to go on now, nobody doubted it. Everyone was quite confident that he'd be able to make a significant contribution in the field.
The issue was his offense. Over his previous ~400 trips to the plate, he'd batted just .219 with four home runs. There was reason to believe his true talent numbers were better than that, given his previous performance, but nothing in his career suggested that he'd make much of a positive impact. And so the player's acquisition was controversial from the start. There were arguments that his defense would make up for his offense, and there were arguments that his offense was too poor for the overall package to be acceptable. This was back when defensive valuation was still brand new, and for weeks upon weeks, debate raged on.
Ultimately, Pokey Reese never got into more than a commercial, his Mariner career lasting exactly zero at bats. So we can't say how people would've felt about him during the year. But there's a reason I bring this up:
Pokey Reese, career: .248/.307/.352
Brendan Ryan, career: .259/.314/.344
Like Reese, Ryan offers one of the better gloves in the league. And, like Reese, Ryan is coming off a poor performance. Over about 400 trips to the plate between 2003-2004, Reese batted .219 with a .271 OBP. Over about 500 trips to the plate in 2010, Ryan batted .223 with a .279 OBP. Ryan struggled after wrist surgery, while Reese struggled after hand surgery.
Ryan and Reese are the same sort of player. Ryan's a little younger than Reese was, and his responsibilities look a little different, so this isn't the same exact situation. But it is strikingly similar.
Don't be fooled by Ryan's high average a year ago, either. Even Pokey Reese batted .285 in 1999. It was inflated. You know what Brendan Ryan's numbers look like in AAA? I'll show you.
.252/.303/.341
That's only a sample of just under 500 plate appearances, but if you combine it with what he's done in the bigs, then you end up with about 1800 plate appearances of pretty lousy hitting. Pretty lousy hitting against the two highest levels of competition. That's meaningful. That very strongly suggests that he's a pretty lousy hitter.
And that's fine. We don't expect Brendan Ryan to hit. We know he doesn't have great bat control, or a gifted eye, or tremendous power. We understand the argument that his game is based on defense, and we understand - better now than we used to - that his defensive ability can make up for his shortcomings at the plate.
But while a lot of people like the Ryan move now, I do wonder how they're going to respond when the season gets going and they actually see for themselves how limited he really is. You can tell yourself that people rarely get attacked by bears or giant spiders, but that doesn't make nightfall in the forest less terrifying. You can explain to yourself that Brendan Ryan projects as a decent player, but that doesn't make the experience more pleasant.
This is like the converse of Richie Sexson. With Sexson, we had a good idea that the M's made a mistake, but his dingers were so fun to watch. We have a good idea now that the M's got better, but Ryan's bat could be miserable, and dreaded in the way that I used to dread watching Dan Wilson earlier in the decade. Feelings aren't always the same in theory and practice.
This is a post about feelings, and I'm curious to see how people feel about Brendan Ryan once he starts getting into the lineup. There's a chance he gets lucky and posts another inflated batting average, rendering all of this moot. There's also a chance that even Brendan Ryan's bat looks like a godsend after what we all went through last season, and that we'll be happy with anything. Who even knows where our standards are anymore? But Ryan's essentially the same hitter as Willie Bloomquist, and I remember how people felt about Willie Bloomquist. People on the internet, anyway.
What's encouraging is that a lot of the people at Viva El Birdos seem to have loved him, so that's a good sign. Hopefully Ryan's able to win us all over with his hustle and wizardly in the field. But my advice - my advice is to give this one time. Wait until you see him before you decide on how you feel. Math is math, but you can never be sure how you'll respond to a limited hitter, and no one wants to end up with a shirsey they regret.
0 recs | 83 comments
At SS, I will just be happy to have a guy that can play everyday
and hits a little better than ol Jo Jo Wilson.
At 2B, it might be a little more frustrating.
Ballard Erik - December 14, 2010
Even if 2B is just temporary.
Ballard Erik - December 14, 2010
I don't like the idea of playing him at second
Jack Wilson is a sunk cost at this point, it makes sense to hand the position over to Ryan since he is presumably the starter for the next few years.
Poochie - December 14, 2010
I concur.
Ballard Erik - December 14, 2010
I agree.
I don’t want to see Jack Wilson out there just so we can eat less of his salary.
morrow - December 14, 2010
Once Ackley is up, sure. But do you see us signing another starting middle infielder to push him out of the job at the start of the season?
stredarts - December 14, 2010
Sure, or you could go with WIlson at second
Poochie - December 15, 2010
Jack Wilson has never played 2B, and I certainly don't want to see a lot of Josh.
Ryan’s actually got some experience at 2B, which is nice.
BrettJMiller - December 15, 2010
Am I the only person here that absolutely loves Jack Wilson's defense?
Sure he can’t hit.. and he gets injured from time to time.. but good lord that guy has a nasty glove.
d0nkey - December 15, 2010
No. Ryan is basically the same player as Wilson except that he has youth and health on his side
Poochie - December 15, 2010
I could watch Ozzie Smith highlights all day long.
Doesn’t mean I want to make Ozzie Smith a part of the 2011 Seattle Mariners.
marc w - December 15, 2010
Ozzie Smith learned how to hit
Poochie - December 15, 2010
Ozzie Smith is about to turn 56.
marc w - December 15, 2010
Not sure what you mean.
Ozzie was worth 70 WAR in his career.
Sec 108 - December 15, 2010
Ozzie Smith is about to turn 56.
marc w - December 15, 2010
Anyone sentient would take Ozzie-Smith-at-age-28.
Similarly, anyone would take a-healthy-Jack-Wilson-when-he-was-younger-and-in-Pittsburgh, as if you could magically pluck a season out of his past and apply it towards the 2011 M’s.
But I’m saying that Jack Wilson, right now, in 2011, has a roughly equivalent chance of really helping this team on the field as Ozzie Smith would. Right now, at age 56.
marc w - December 15, 2010
Okay, I understand.
Sec 108 - December 15, 2010
Who's gonna play 2B until Ackley is ready?
I sure as hell don’t want it to be Figgins. If Ryan can handle 2B until May or however long it takes to call up Ackley with regards to service time, I don’t think he’ll suddenly be a worse shortstop. The hard thing for me to believe is that Jack Wilson will stay healthy that long.
BrettJMiller - December 15, 2010
They could always pickup someone else, or put Jack Wilson into a utility role
Poochie - December 15, 2010
Ryan has struggled to get acclimated to other positions in the past.
While I don’t doubt he could get the hang of second or third if he worked hard to play there regularly ,Wilson may fare better in regards to being moved off shortstop on a temporary basis.
I have a distaste for all this shuffling of the infield. If Wilson is the odd man out whether it’s because he’ll get hurt, or because he’ll be replaced by Ackley after a month or two, he should be the guy to move.
Poochie - December 15, 2010
Furthermore, since he's coming off a season where he struggled with the bat
It may not be a good idea to have him learn a new position, especially if he’s only going to play there for a couple months. Ryan was at one point relegated to SS only duty when he was a backup because he struggled defensively at other positions. It’s probably good to give him as few distractions as possible.
Poochie - December 15, 2010
There's still a reasonable chance that he goes back to being a league-average player for at least a few months.
On opening day, Figgins should be at third and Ackley should be in the minors. Given Ryan’s experience at second, I have no problem with keeping Wilson where he has always played until he gets hurt or Ackley gets called up.
Decatur - December 15, 2010
Ah shit
Poochie - December 14, 2010
I'm not going to be Brendan over backwards trying to justify him, but as long as he's not Ryan down on the job it should be okay.
CapSea - December 14, 2010
Really I think I'll hate him, but anything to make this team better at this point. I'll be happy that he's not Jack Wilson.
CapSea - December 14, 2010
Or Jesus Colome.
He’s ground zero for horrible puns
Kermit. - December 14, 2010
What did the cool guy yell out to the Greek God?
Hey Zeus! Call Me!
CapSea - December 14, 2010
I thought you said you were Right.
Because that is so wrong
Kermit. - December 14, 2010
There is a possibility that Mac had something to do with Ryan's down numbers
VEB’s resident mechanic seems to think that Mac hurt his swing. And Ryan’s not some skimpy slap hitter. He’s a solid 6-2, and has speed. I think that he has a shot to break out this year, hit close to a league average player.
vivaelpujols - December 14, 2010
I will of course defer to the people who have watched him
I just don’t see much evidence in his history that he could be on the verge of a breakout. If he bats a legitimate .290, or if he draws a lot of walks or shows power, it will be coming out of nowhere (statistically speaking).
Jeff Sullivan - December 14, 2010
Fair enough
But using wOBAr, he was a .318 hitter in 09 when you regress his BABIP, so he has had a good season before. And his plate discipline numbers improved last year.
vivaelpujols - December 14, 2010
I'm not sure that wOBAr is what you want to be looking at given Ryan's small sample 07/08 seasons
Regressing his 2009 BABIP to his career average yields an empty batting average of .259. I didn’t watch him that year, but it sure seems like it was pretty fluky.
Jeff Sullivan - December 14, 2010
Doesn't wOBAr regress BABIP to the league average based on batted ball numbers if their is a lack of historical data?
vivaelpujols - December 15, 2010
Yes
Matthew - December 15, 2010
I'd be perfectly happy with a win and a half from Ryan.
Here’s a fun one courtesy Fangraphs multi-season splits – Mariners shortstops 2007-2010: 0.7 WAR
Manzanillos Cup - December 14, 2010
Brendan Ryan wOBA'ed .256 last year
And produced more WAR at shortstop than we have in 650 games.
Manzanillos Cup - December 14, 2010
Thats really sad.
zeeehjee - December 14, 2010
As long as he hits .280 with 15 dingers I'll be happy.
BigR - December 14, 2010
The only problem I had with Casey Kotchman is that I saw more of him than I should have given his production numbers.
I’ll be fine with Brendan Ryan.
ThundaPC - December 14, 2010
That, and the fact that he was playing a position that demands offense
I can live with piss-poor offense from SS—well, maybe not 2010 Kotchman-level numbers. But you get my point…
Matt Erickson - December 14, 2010
Reese
I was never quite sure what happened to Reese, since I don’t follow Spring Training too closely. I knew that we had him at one point and that he never actually played in a game, but never heard what happened.
After reading this I could care less.
zeeehjee - December 14, 2010
He got injured
And then got injured. After that, he got injured.
nathaniel dawson - December 15, 2010
Nothing can be as bad as the bats of 2010.
Can Brendan Ryan bunt? It seems like he must have learned how, presumably batting 8th in the NL.
ignacio - December 14, 2010
He has five bunt hits
Jeff Sullivan - December 14, 2010
Even Ichiro irritates me with his approach at times
And I think most people know Ryan was brought in for his glove and will be more lenient with regards to judging his bat.
JLC - December 14, 2010
Ichiro only irritates me I wish I knew how to quit him.
Ballard Erik - December 15, 2010
As long as he doesn't ruin Endy Chavez's career I can't be too mad.
JAH - December 14, 2010
Who gives a fuck what he does to Endy Chavez now?
Now Saunders on the other hand… or, heaven forbid… Guti :( If he lays a hand on that man, he can take his pimpin’ mustache straight to hell with him.
Matt Erickson - December 14, 2010
Breaking legs? That's good hustle. :(
yuniform - December 15, 2010
"What's encouraging is that a lot of the people at Viva El Birdos seem to have loved him, so that's a good sign. "
Don’t we all still love Hyphen?
Aly Edge - December 14, 2010
Well, exactly. And we hope he will be loved by whatever team he plays for.
CapSea - December 14, 2010
Yeah, but we probably wouldn't have freaked out at ownership for trading him
Matt Erickson - December 14, 2010
That's because...
That’s because Hyphen isn’t that great of a pitcher, just an awesome guy, BR is an awesome SS that was traded for a low minors pitcher who’s more than likely going to become a reliever….Stupid move by the Cardinals FO if you ask me, maybe he slept with La Russa’s daughter or something?
MO'toole - December 15, 2010
I've always heard that
LaRussa was irrated b his laid back, just having fun out here attitude. La Russa, given what we know about his propentsity to kick a few back and get behind the wheel, is a consummate professional.
Ballard Erik - December 15, 2010
rec
you have a perfect understanding of the situation in STL.
guayzimi - December 15, 2010
More than any other position, probably even catcher, I can forgive bad offense at SS as long
as I am getting plus defense. Ryan should give us that and if he does I will enjoy watching him.
Sec 108 - December 15, 2010
Then you'll love the Olivo/Ryan tandem!
CMC_Stags - December 15, 2010
I went to the Mariners interleague series with the Cards this year
Ryan played all 3 games at shortstop. Extremely small sample size, but I can tell you he appears to be a ridiculously slick fielder who at least Jack Wilson’s level, if not actually a little better.
At the plate (again, small sample size) he seemed to show extremely good patience, even if he didn’t have the best results. He took a lot of pitches in those games (went back to the box score, he took 41 pitches over 10 PAs), and worked the count well. Pretty much zero power, but doesn’t look like the type to strike out much, and has at least a good approach at the plate, if not mind blowing results.
Cautiously optimistic, actually.
Kingdomer - December 15, 2010
Why is every article so negative?
Yeah, I get it, historical evidence suggests he is going to be a well below league average hitter. But I hardly think it’s necessary to title the article “Brenden Ryan Isn’t Going to Hit.” How the hell do you know? I don’t come to this website so that I can read articles that make me want to slit my wrists, I come for well written, thoughtful, timely articles and analysis. The intrique of sports is the unpredictability. Even in baseball, the most controlled and predictable sport in the world, nothing is certain. So why would you write an article stating that this guy has no chance to hit, especially when your original article was optimistic about a possible resurgence? I’m honestly getting sick of the writers being Debbie Downers all the time, talking about how much everyone sucks, whether or not it is true (Rob Johnson)…..I see no reason to be so dramatically negative about the acquisition of Ryan, it seems that any way you slice it this guy makes the team better, why don’y you focus on that?
Spracks - December 15, 2010
If a blog entry titled "Brendan Ryan Isn't Going To Hit" makes you want to slit your wrists then how in the blue fuck do you root for the Mariners?
Additionally, you are missing the point.
Jeff Sullivan - December 15, 2010
"How in the blue fuck"
I like it. That is now going to be a staple in my lexicon of potent swearing phrases.
nathaniel dawson - December 15, 2010
If you don't like it, stop reading Lookout Landing
seattlebruin - December 15, 2010
Clearly said in original post that I enjoy Lookout Landing, but I am sometimes annoyed by the Negative Nancy attitude.
Spracks - December 15, 2010
Please use the subject line.
And this isn’t pessimism so much as realism.
Eyeball Kid - December 15, 2010
If you don't like his comments,
YOU stop reading Lookout Landing.
Attractive Nuisance - December 15, 2010
YOU are missing the point, buddy. This is a commercial enterprise, strictly for profit
What the hell you trying to do? Take money out of Sullivan’s pocket? The customer is always right, bro’, think about it before you go straight to running them out of the store already
Kermit. - December 15, 2010
I
don’t have the slightest clue what you’re talking about.
Spracks - December 15, 2010
I was taking the opportunity to be absurd and break seattlebruins balls a little bit
And I haven’t the slightest either, really. But hey! Ball breaking! Good times
Kermit. - December 15, 2010
Oh man, I'm so used to being passive aggressive I overlooked the back handed insult part
So there was that too. Yay for ball breaking!
Kermit. - December 15, 2010
Ask for a refund
Poochie - December 15, 2010
I found this post to be positive.
Sec 108 - December 16, 2010
Obvious exaggeration. YOU are missing the point.
Spracks - December 15, 2010
If you don't think that I've expressed support for the Ryan acquisition then you have indeed missed the point
I feel quite good about the Mariners, actually. Better than I ought to. Hello!
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2010/12/3/1852526/erik-bedard-hope-return-to-mariners#comments
Jeff Sullivan - December 15, 2010
That is no excuse,
for misinterpreting obvious exaggeration about suicide. YOU deserved the allcaps pronoun.
Attractive Nuisance - December 15, 2010
That’s why I was confused, since you (along with everyone else) supported this move. I was, and still am, optimistic about it. I just don’t understand why you chose to put emphasis on how he’s going to have a shitty year, instead of the possibility of a breakout year. I’m sure you can just as easily find someone who had similar stats to Ryan who then had a breakout year. Perhaps I was overly critical in my original post, but it just seemed like the completely negative article was oddly timed, effectively crushing any enthusiasm we had for this move in the first place.
Spracks - December 15, 2010
It looks to me like he was trying to be a realist.
There’s good reason to believe that the Ryan deal was a good one for the club, which he stated in his first post. There’s also reason to believe that Ryan is going to be a horrible hitter next year, which is what this post is about. Being a pessimist would be imagining that this is going to work out horribly for the Mariners, while being an optimist would be imagining that Brendan Ryan is going to have a breakout year offensively.
He’s just trying to tell it like it is, whether that be good or bad.
nathaniel dawson - December 15, 2010
You're aware this isn't the the only article Jeff's written on the subject?
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2010/12/12/1871939/brendan-ryan-seattle-mariner
The linked article also mentions that he’s no great shakes with the bat (largely because it’s true), but gives an overall view of the trade. You’ll notice Jeff, and just about everyone else, like the move.
Eyeball Kid - December 15, 2010
I kind of know how you feel Spracks
It’s a little silly, but I often feel the need to check LL or the commentary of a similarly clear-thinking blogger before I know how to feel about any given move. And my excitement level often correlates with the excitement level of the consensus reaction of the blog community. So, I understand your frustration with a negative blog post title shortly after an acquisition that was probably good for the team. On the other hand, I find this post to be pretty interesting because it discusses the difference between a player’s contribution to fan enjoyment and his contribution to team success. Somewhat counterintuitively, even for smart fans like you’ll generally find here, those things do not always correlate. As Jeff said, “This is a post about feelings.” For all sorts of reasons, players become fan favorites, or they don’t. And players become favorites of the LL community, or they don’t. I think that this post, which mentions a few things that might endear Ryan to the fan and LL communities, and a few things that might turn us off, before those things actually happen, is a pretty good read. It’s a lot more than just a pessimistic article about Ryan’s offense.
Attractive Nuisance - December 15, 2010
He doesn't want people to turn on Brendan Ryan when they discover that he's no better a hitter than the guys we've had there for the last several years.
So he’s trying to get everybody to temper their expectations. He’s got a soft spot in his heart for the little guy, and it would cut him deep to see everybody trashing him. That’s all it is.
nathaniel dawson - December 15, 2010
Yes!
Someone finally kind of agrees with me! Haha, I thought I was going to be burned at the stake there for a second. Overall, I can’t deny that the article was an entertaining read and clearly achieved its goal of giving the readers additional insight into a player and making them think critically about it.
Not trying to beat a dead horse, but I felt that I got a perfectly good feeling for who Ryan was in Jeff’s first write-up. Great fielder, below average hitter who has shown the potential to be slightly better than that, good personality that will likely make him a bit of a fan favorite, etc…. I’ve made it clear that I thought this article was overly harsh and negative, but I digress……
Spracks - December 15, 2010
You are going to get burned at the stake for making statements like this
That sort of blatant exaggeration is not needed and hinders any point you were trying to make, no matter how reasonable the rest of your comment may be.
Matthew - December 15, 2010
Also, remember that people will have a hard time telling when you are kidding or exagerrating when you are a new poster.
If we don’t know your sense of humor or writing style at all, we will usually take what you say at face value.
Decatur - December 15, 2010
It's hard to write about not sucking
when you suck more than 95% of other teams.
We suck. We suck bad. So if anyone’s gonna write about the M’s, it’s probably going to have alot to do with the fact that WE SUCK.
I’m always optimistic. I love the M’s. Extremely unrationally I have it in my head that the M’s will win 80 games next year, but I still recognize that right now….. WE SUCK.
Darth Flamingo - December 15, 2010
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