Let's make one thing clear right now - this could be a disaster. This could be a disaster because this has already been a disaster once before, as Miguel Olivo has played for the Mariners and made outs nearly 80% of the time he came to the plate. Those of us who watched the M's in '04 and '05 remember Olivo as looking like perhaps the most helpless and hopeless hitter we've ever seen, and not a whole lot has changed. He still has the same approach. It's a lousy approach.
Not that this could ever be a real franchise-crippler, of course. Jon Morosi says it's a two-year deal with a 2013 option worth a guaranteed $7 million, and my suspicion is that it's something like two years and $6.5 million with a $0.5 million option buyout. That's too small a contract to make a huge difference. But Olivo the player - Olivo could be a mess.
But at the same time, he might not be. Yes, he's a 32 year old catcher. Yes, his time spent in Seattle previously was a nightmare. Over the past five seasons, though, Olivo's batted .254/.287/.444. He was a decent hitter with the Royals as recently as 2009, so he hasn't just padded his numbers in the NL or in Coors Field. Olivo has a track record - a recent track record - of being okay.
That's something we all have to keep in mind. As a righty pull hitter, it doesn't help that he's a lousy fit for Safeco Field, but then most hitters are a lousy fit for Safeco Field. Not everyone can be a lefty or a righty who hits to all fields. Olivo has been terrible in Seattle, but he was also good in a brief stint in San Diego, and he was fine in Kansas City, where righties struggle to hit home runs as much as they do here. Safeco isn't guaranteed to kill him.
Here's what Olivo brings: strikeouts, passed balls, home runs, and a strong throwing arm. Pretty much just those four things. Two of them are bad, and two of them are good. If he starts striking out more and homering less, then that's bad news, because we can already predict that he'll have a poor OBP. Only once in his career has he posted an OBP north of .300. He's going to make outs. So he needs to be able to slug the ball to help out. Fortunately, he's established that he can slug the ball often enough. He's been doing it for years.
And if he can do that here, he'll be fine. Remember that catchers aren't held to the same offensive standard as most everybody else. They have a lower baseline, which makes Olivo's numbers more acceptable. You wouldn't want Miguel Olivo as a DH. But as a backstop? Then it fits a little better.
Given that Olivo has played in 226 games over the past two years, he isn't signing here to be a backup. He's going to be the starter. Not a near-everyday starter like Yadier Molina, but the majority starter. In other words, Adam Moore becomes the reserve for the time being, while Rob Johnson falls out of the picture. That'll make some people mad, as they want to see Moore develop with more regular playing time, but you can develop starting 50 or 60 games in a season. Moore demonstrated in 2010 that he has a lot of work to do if he wants to stick. You can't ask him to be a regular in 2011 and expect him to hold his own. He still needs to be eased in, and he can still work on improving his shortcomings from behind Olivo on the depth chart.
And if Moore improves and shows himself ready, then Olivo won't be much of an obstacle. He has a small enough contract that he can be bumped, and he has a small enough contract that he can be traded. Just because Olivo's the starter now doesn't mean he's guaranteed to be the starter next season.
All in all, I don't see this as being a great signing, nor do I see it as being a terrible one. It could be a terrible one, if Olivo plays as terribly as he did several years ago, but it could also be a great one if he hits like he did in 2009, so, who knows? $7 million over two years is not a ton of money for a catcher who has recently been all right.
I know that people aren't wild about the prospect of watching Olivo on TV. Actually watching Olivo is probably the worst part of the whole thing, as his batting approach is painfully poor. He has no sense of selectivity and swings at almost everything. He's like Jose Lopez without the contact, and his slumps - and, oh, will there be slumps - will be exercises in visual torture. Every time Miguel Olivo comes up to bat, no matter the situation, nobody will have any faith that he'll be able to put the ball in play. But if Olivo looks awful, and then we step back and see that he's slugging .440, then that's what matters. If he's helping, he's helping.
So Olivo's probably going to be a lot of people's least favorite Mariner in the season to come. That's fine, but it's also subjective, and objectively, this deal makes sense. Olivo gives the Mariners a decent second-tier offensive catcher. He also brings a warm Latin personality to the clubhouse, which could matter in ways I don't feel like getting into. I know we all want Felix to be happy, and this will make Felix happy. If he sucks - and there's a good chance that he absolutely sucks - then that's too bad, and a lot of people will reflect on today and say "I told you so," but just looking at the numbers, I think this could work. I think Olivo could be worth his contract. And in the end, that's really all you can ask for.
1 recs | 88 comments
At least one player has texted Mike Salk to say that Olivo is a great guy and they're excited to be playing with him.
I don’t want to get too deep into the nebulous area that is chemistry, but for a team that’s rebuilding that has to matter some.
Adam Moore may not be ready to burden the majority of the catching duties. Olivo can help in that regard. He can provide some value with the bat. At least one player on the team likes him.
Yeah, whatever, I don’t personally like this move. But, if Olivo can make the growing pains of a rebuilding team easier for the players in the clubhouse then fine. I can see the justification.
BrianL - December 9, 2010
Just to add more cliches. People have said he is a firey guy.
And with the recent comments about the young players not really trying their hardest last year. Its nice to have this type of personality in the clubhouse.
Scruffy Lefty - December 9, 2010
On Moore
Salk played an interesting snippet earlier this morning that he got off an interview with GMZ last night. Paraphrased, it was basically Z saying Moore has the physical tools and athletic ability to be a good, everyday catcher for this ballclub — it just comes down to how badly he wants it.
Obviously he has his doubts, and if this signing doesn’t push Moore to become a starting catcher at the MLB level, I can’t imagine he’ll be around as long as Olivo.
seattlecougar - December 9, 2010
I would have liked this deal more if their had been rumors that we were about to trade for Buster Posey right before the news broke.
Robert - December 9, 2010
Also for the Zaun vs Olivo thing.
Olivo (If useful) actually helps us in 2012 when we’re likely to be more competitive.
Scruffy Lefty - December 9, 2010
And the award for the most half-hearted, begrudging endorsement of a move goes to...
SethGrandpa - December 9, 2010
Fond memories re Olivo
I once attended a game vs. the Yankees at Safeco (2004ish). Olivo hit a double but thought the ball had gone foul, when he realized it tried to still make it to second and was thrown out. Ms won nonetheless. Pitching Matchup was Gil Meche vs. Kevin Brown, Matsui and Ichiro both homered, with Ichiro’s homer leading off the bottom of the 1st with me still outside the stadium.
vj - December 9, 2010
that was the game I am talking about!
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2004/B08150SEA2004.htm
vj - December 9, 2010
If we're going to have a crappy hitting Latin fellow with a warm personality,
Seems better to have him behind the plate than playing third.
DaCheez - December 9, 2010
Jose Lopez was a league average hitter in both 2008 and 2009
seattlebruin - December 9, 2010
So was Olivo
Jeff Sullivan - December 9, 2010
I just want people to stop insisting Jose Lopez was a bad hitter
seattlebruin - December 9, 2010
Except in 2007 and 2010
seattlebruin - December 9, 2010
What about in 2004 and 2005?
Robert - December 9, 2010
He sucked in a small sample as a 21 and 22 year old in the Majors
oh well.
seattlebruin - December 9, 2010
So what you are saying is that Lopez was not mind numbingly terrible for 2.5 out 7 years?
Robert - December 9, 2010
As my wife likes to say,
Sec 108 - December 9, 2010
Exactly and that is where the problem lies.
Olivo will not make the Mariners worse but he will make them more unwatchable. Even in his league average years Jose Lopez was one of the least liked Mariners because his approach at the plate made him painful to watch. We just got rid of that last week, and added it right back into the mix with Miguel Olivo. Add that to the zany antics actually trying to catch the ball and Lopez has been painstakingly recreated and placed behind the plate. MIguel Olivo makes the Mariners slightly better next year, if everything goes well, and, at the same time, makes them more unwatchable just like Jose Lopez.
Droid Rage - December 9, 2010
Olivo makes the team more watchable.
Last year, Lopez sucked at the plate AND we had a crappy catcher. This year, it’ll be wrapped up into one player. It’s like the one 4 WAR player being preferable to two 2 WAR players. We’ll still have the same kinds of suck, but it’ll all be bundled into a single roster spot. One black hole in the lineup instead of two. One stooge instead of two stooges equals fewer zany antics.
DaCheez - December 9, 2010
Maybe Z is on the right track.
If he continues consolidating team flaws and concentrates them all into one player, we can tie up the player and burn him at the stake. Then we’ll all be free of this curse.
DaCheez - December 9, 2010
Ballparks in which Olivo homered last year:
Coors (10)
CIN
Miller Park
PETCO
RFK
The PETCO homer was a 379 footer.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 9, 2010
Interestingly, Olivo's career is more than one year long
Jeff Sullivan - December 9, 2010
Prove it.
Terminator X - December 9, 2010
I don't think that's very interesting at all.
.Taylor - December 9, 2010
Yes but I can cherry pick with the best of em
Bearskin Rugburn - December 9, 2010
RFK?
SeattExPat - December 9, 2010
Isn't the Nationals' park called RFK stadium?
Bearskin Rugburn - December 9, 2010
No, they moved out of that 2 years ago, I think
New park is Nationals Park. I’ve made the same mistake before, because I don’t really give a flip about the Nationals.
JLC - December 9, 2010
No, they plaed in RFK for a fwe years while the new park was being built.
RFK is a old multiuse donut style affair. The Nats have a new baseball-specific park. It’s aight. Not a Safeco.
DC United is the only team that plays in RFK theses days.
SeattExPat - December 9, 2010
And United can't wait to get out
I can say from personal experience that RFK is a gigantic pile of crap
Nick S - December 9, 2010
A charming pile of crap, but a pile none the less.
SeattExPat - December 9, 2010
Hmm, and every single one of those home runs would have been a home run in Safeco too.
Linky.
As would the majority of his 23 home runs the year before. Linky #2.
He doesn’t hit many cheap shots. And, for what it’s worth, he hit his home runs (on average) harder and farther last year than he did the year before. In 2009, his home runs went an average distance of 400.9’ at an average speed of 103.6 mph off the bat. Compare to Lopez the same year: 383.5’; 102.5 mph. Obviously a lot can affect these numbers, but it seems pretty obvious that Olivo not only has more power than Lopez, but has plenty of power to hit plenty of home runs in Safeco.
Matt Erickson - December 10, 2010
I've seen people do this a lot, and every time I see it, I think to myself, "this means absolutely nothing".
You can’t just take a graph from Hittracker and overlay it on Safeco field and think that it means anything. There’s just too many things going on to assume it’s telling you anything.
What we know is that Safeco negatively affects hitters, especially right-handed hitters, and what we should expect is that it will negatively affect Miguel Olivo. Probably not an awful lot, as the park effect isn’t as extreme as many people make it out to be, but it will probably be there.
nathaniel dawson - December 10, 2010
This tweet from Churchill is just terrifying
Bearskin Rugburn - December 9, 2010
Jeff Francouer can not be traded till around May.
Robert - December 9, 2010
Oh I didn't really think this was happening
just a scary thought.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 9, 2010
Attack dogs that bark bees out of their mouths are also a scary thought.
Robert - December 9, 2010
I think that this is more of a funny thought.
Kirk - December 9, 2010
I think that is more of a Simpsons reference.
JY - December 10, 2010
Yeah Moore's value is sky high
Jeff Sullivan - December 9, 2010
This seems like a stupid thing to draw from this.
joof - December 9, 2010
Why would we trade for Francoeur and not just of signed him when he was available?
Scruffy Lefty - December 9, 2010
It was a joke.
Janic - December 9, 2010
Adam Moore better start sending Felix some flowers to try and win the spot for Felix's personal caddy.
@gbakermariners Geoff Baker
Reason M’s went Olivo over Zaun was they wanted a No. 1 guy, not a backup. Zaun is coming off injury and has been year to year a while now
SgtSasquatch - December 9, 2010
Churchill also claims "Zaun apparently has no desire to sign with a rebuilding team -- unless he gets two years gauaranteed -- and thus was never an option. "
msb - December 9, 2010
Which Baker thinks is bull
drblacknwhite - December 9, 2010
More twitterific rumoring
@ BrockandSalk In asking around about Zaun, one person suggested there was no way he could handle the Ms staff. He struggled defensively w/Shields last yr.
msb - December 9, 2010
What in the hell? I say, I say there. What in the hell?
No way he could handle the M’s pitchers? It’s like one super duper pitcher that insists on throwing mostly fastballs and any number of mediocre guys that mostly insist on throwing fastballs. Or that one dipshit that decided he’s pitching to contact.
Zaun was awesome, older veteran white guy who might possibly be crazy. Like Sweeney but with catchers gear on
Kermit. - December 9, 2010
I like how the same people that heaped unlimited praise on Z for the last two years now think that he's lost his marbles.
Robert - December 9, 2010
I hate this move but I don't think Z lost his marbles.
Bearskin Rugburn - December 9, 2010
I'm in this category.
Heck, I wouldn’t even go as far to say it’s a ‘bad’ move I just personally don’t ant to watch Olivo.
SgtSasquatch - December 9, 2010
This is most of it for me.
The move just isn’t exciting. We all want some big an exciting things to help us change so we don’t have to go through last year again. With other teams making huge, exciting moves, it’s hard to sit back and watch us sign one catcher who is just ok.
SeattExPat - December 9, 2010
Z didn't sign Miguel Olivo to a two year deal before now.
I’d have liked to see if Moore could hack it, especially in a year we aren’t going to do much in.
JAH - December 9, 2010
The only lasting memory I have of Miguel Olivo is his receiving cookies or cake from a Seattle fan at Safeco on his birthday.
JLC - December 9, 2010
Ironically, he was also our catcher of the future!
We just had to wait about 7 years!
JLC - December 9, 2010
Playboy rated him as the catcher with the best throwing arm in spring training 2005 and that's good enough for me!
Robert - December 9, 2010
Bill Bavasi and Z have now acquired the same player.
Robert - December 9, 2010
Adam Moore has to be traded right?
Not by law or anything….but you’d think a fairly young catcher that has hit fairly well in the minors would have to play his way into being a backup.
That usually takes more than one season…I’d think anyways.
I just have to think that Moore is going to be a part of a package somewhere…for something.
PLU Tim - December 9, 2010
Moore could be traded, sure
Or he’s being pushed and protected. He was absolutely terrible last season and often looked overwhelmed. Would you really want that guy to start 100 times for a big league team in 2011? He’ll have a chance to get into his 50-60 games and take things slower, which for all we know could be far greater for his development.
Jeff Sullivan - December 9, 2010
Any idea what the option is at this point?
it seems a lot worse if it’s a vesting option than a team option with a small buyout
seattlebruin - December 9, 2010
I would assume it is a club option with a small buyout
Jeff Sullivan - December 9, 2010
How much of a factor is Adam Moore's age?
Janic - December 9, 2010
Moore is 26. It's pretty much now or never
seattlebruin - December 9, 2010
I don't think that Moore is really young enough to have the trade value you would want.
Kirk - December 9, 2010
No, the law about Moore is that our disappointment in him doubles every 18 months
pmc47 - December 9, 2010
Aging veteran returns to the Mariners to mentor young players and provide pop into a weak lineup
This is Griffey all over again.
MT Olson - December 9, 2010
Olivo was pretty legendary his first stint with the team
just legendary in the terrible way
seattlebruin - December 9, 2010
Olivo is 32 and not a beloved douchebag that walked out on the city twice.
Robert - December 9, 2010
The only thing Olivo and Griffey share are haircuts
JLC - December 9, 2010
This is in no way serious.
MT Olson - December 9, 2010
I wonder if they plan on running his old commercial.
The Tag
Might have to sign Randy Winn as the fourth outfielder though.
Janic - December 9, 2010
I'd actually managed to forget that.
msb - December 9, 2010
Someone mentioned it before, but could these Mariner commercials
be having a bad influence on some of the younger players?
I forgot about Olivo’s commercial but then you have the Double Play Twins, etc. These young guys get featured in these dumb commercials and do they think they got it made? Well Olivo and the Double Play Twins (thank god we finally managed to got rid of them after they sucked so long) are hopefully different cases.
NeighborTom2 - December 9, 2010
Yes. This is absolutely the explanation.
Aaron Campeau - December 9, 2010
....wut?
BigR - December 9, 2010
Holy shit I think you're on to something
abender20 - December 9, 2010
That's.....one theory.
ThundaPC - December 9, 2010
Oh God those 2005 ads were the WORST
“Hey Pokey, the stolen base is in the next hour. This is the long ball!”
Although their ad is probably the only time ever that Jamie Moyer and Bobby Madritsch would be mentioned in the same sentence…
Aly Edge - December 9, 2010
he's a tough guy, at least
source
vj - December 9, 2010
Maybe Miguel has been healed.
msb - December 9, 2010
I totally forgot about Eddie Guardado.
Goose - December 9, 2010
I'm really whelmed
Griffin Cooper - December 9, 2010
Seriously though, I can't think of a more average signing then this.
This is so… ‘average risk average reward’. He is middle of the road age wise. He’s kinda bad at some things and sorta good at others… He’s just so….ugh
JamMasterJesus - December 9, 2010
If we're going to suck, we might as well get the games over quickly.
Teej - December 9, 2010
Strikeouts take a while
If you want quick, you want Jose Lopez
Jeff Sullivan - December 9, 2010
At least he isn't Rene Rivera
Edgar for Pres - December 9, 2010
Fuck yeah he isn't.
JY - December 9, 2010
What I like about this deal is that no one interviewed Rob Johnson today.
JY - December 9, 2010
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