With yesterday's Ryan Garko signing, the roster's looking pretty crowded. Check it out:

Figure 1: Estimate of the Mariners current roster. Green shade: left-handed; blue: switch; red: unknown.
Blue for switch hitters, green for left handed hitters/pitchers. Red for anyone who's not definitely on the roster right now (I have no idea who out of Moore, Johnson, and Bard will be dropped, for example). First thing to note, of course, is that barring surprises we will be going with an eleven man pitching staff. This is a pretty big deal, but it's facilitated by having an extremely strong top of the rotation. Lee and Felix should be able to ease up some of the pressure on the bullpen, allowing for the possibility of using six guys in there as opposed to our customary seven.
Furthermore, the composition of the guys in the mixer for the last bullpen spot helps out too. We have an absolute wealth of back-of-the-rotation guys, most of whom are left-handed. We also have Nick Hill, another lefty, who could be a not-awful swingman right now. This means that (assuming Sean White is broken and not going to be back), we will have two guys in the bullpen with enough durability to throw a few innings without exploding or anything. The only worry is that we're not going to be able to mix and match to exploit platoon splits in the late innings, but compared to the benefits of us going to a five-man bench, that's not that significant.
It's a good thing, too, because the presence of Ken Griffey Junior at DH (even if you believe he'll be starting, you have to accept a platoon) breaks the four man bench. If we think of the 'typical' bench as a backup catcher and a bunch of utility players, ours must accommodate a player who can't do anything but hit. Going with a four-man bench means that you have a catcher, a DH, and just two utility guys to cover for everyone else. This is a problem for a team as prone to being as banged up as ours. In essence, by going to an eleven-man staff, we're just getting our fourth bench spot back.
With this said, there are a number of secondary comments I'd make which could alter all of the above. When Garko was signed, it immediately 'felt' to me that there were too many outfielders and not enough infielders on the roster, and I wondered whether Langerhans might be better off being replaced with Matt Tuiasosopo. This essentially replaces a spare outfielder with a spare infielder, which seems like things are more balanced. Langerhans's contract permits this, but he has to be put through waivers to get to Tacoma as far as I know. Unfortunately, this system is flawed in that it essentially forces Milton Bradley into the field more often. My uninformed feeling is that Griffey is the home DH against RHP, with Bradley playing left. Away, with Langerhans on the roster, Bradley is the DH against everyone, with a Langerhans/Byrnes platoon in left. This doesn't work without another left-handed outfielder, and I'm strongly in favour of restricting Bradley's outfield time (and Griffey's anything time).
Another interesting idea is to use Garko as the second catcher. This free us up to go back to a twelve-man staff or to add a Tui-type player as the second backup infielder. We'd also be able to put up some relatively potent lineups out there when we need offence the most. After all, Garko has significant playing time behind the plate in the minor leagues, all the way up to AAA. The problem? Garko hasn't caught regularly for a few years, and it's questionable as to whether he could handle quasi-regular duties behind the plate. It would also stop him being used as a pinch-hitter, which isn't as big a problem as one might think given Wakamatsu's pinch hitting tendencies (or lack thereof). This is something the Mariners might consider playing with in the spring, but it's unlikely that it works. It'd be a really neat little scenario if it pans out though.
And honestly, I think that's the only real way we go back to a twelve-man staff. If a starter gets hurt on a road trip and we face a couple of lefties, we're boned with the four-man bench. I think Griffey really tilts the balance in the favour of having six bullpen arms, and with the personnel we have in the pitching corps, it makes pretty good sense. Although Figgins can fill pretty much anywhere in in case of emergency (our set of position players is bizarrely versatile, which could be a full length post in its own right), we're seemingly better off going light on the bullpen, at least to start.
1 recs | 203 comments
Can Garko actually catch?
Poochie - February 2, 2010
I'm not sure
He had a good amount of time behind the plate, but he can’t throw guys out. They’re going to be evaluating him in spring training though.
Graham MacAree - February 2, 2010
I like that they are taking a look.
If he could actually play the position it would be pretty awesome.
Poochie - February 2, 2010
If he could actually play the position wouldn't he be incredibly valuable?
lailaihei - February 2, 2010
He'd be like Doumit I suppose
Poochie - February 2, 2010
If Doumit didn't have injury concerns he would be a hot commodity.
lailaihei - February 2, 2010
totally agree, i was looking forward to the m’s to replace kenji leaving. Rob Johnson is terrible, and with the outstanding rotation we have, we should support them with a decent-good catcher. I would assume that it was part of the agreement when Garko signed to be a catcher, otherwise signing Kotchman and Garko makes little since. I understand right/left hand balance for the lineup, but why not fix the problems we know we have…. aka Rob Johnson….
mariseanerhawk - February 5, 2010
He can work on it
all spring and into mid-summer. If we temporary lose one traditional catcher day-to-day or even a week, he’ll be good enough we wont need to make a roster move
crushingyourhead - February 2, 2010
I'm skeptical
He’s a good hitter, but not much of a defensive player elswhere. If he was even passable behind the plate, Cleveland never would have moved him off of it.
nathaniel dawson - February 2, 2010
Except he was stuck behind Victor Martinez.
Moving him to first was seen as the quicker path to the big leagues.
I Lick Squirrels - February 2, 2010
Yes, but.......
I’ve got the feeling there was more to it than that. Teams just don’t move good hitting catchers that can field well off the position. They have them split time as the backup and play other positions as well. As long as he can field adequately, there is simply too much value in a good hitting catcher to permanently move him off the position.
nathaniel dawson - February 2, 2010
Bear in mind, though
that we don’t really have a good handle on catcher fielding; a lot of times, teams seem to focus on the throwing arm, and if a guy can’t throw out runners, he gets moved even if he doesn’t have an established starter in front of him.
The Ancient Mariner - February 3, 2010
Ehh, screwed up the tags
In any case, I gather Garko had a pretty good rep as a catcher in college; from what Graham said above, I would assume it was his throwing arm that was the Indians’ problem. (Otherwise, given that Martinez was no GG behind the plate, they might well have done a C/1B job share between them.) For right now, let’s just wait and see what we see.
The Ancient Mariner - February 3, 2010
What we don't have a good handle on
is how to quantify catcher defense.
That doesn’t mean baseball teams don’t have a good handle on how to evaluate it. He’s going to have a chance to show the Mariners what level of ability he has there — but it would surprise me if they decide to use him as their sole backup at the position.
nathaniel dawson - February 3, 2010
Good stuff. I'm really interested to see what they end up going with.
I’m thinking Langerhans gets that last spot. Otherwise they’ve gotta go with Byrnes against RHP on days when Bradley’s unavailable, and that could end up being fairly often.
Griffin Cooper - February 2, 2010
I thought it was generally assumed that Ian Snell was the #4 starter?
Goose - February 2, 2010
The way he pitched last season
I wouldn’t be surprised if a bad showing got him booted from the rotation
Poochie - February 2, 2010
It is, but I'm not super-convinced
Graham MacAree - February 2, 2010
I thought they would look to Snell as #4 and French as 5… sure neither have been overly impressive thus far, but not every pitcher is a felix, some need time…who else are we going to put in there? If they sign Bedard, you have him 3 then Rowland-Smith 4, so either way one of the two are looking to be number 5.
mariseanerhawk - February 5, 2010
no switch pitchers?
CBF - February 2, 2010
Unfortunately, we don't have
Pat Venditte.
seattle_since_81 - February 3, 2010
Rec'd because...
…I had never heard of Pat Venditte before, and the whole concept of a switch-pitcher is fracking awesome. Nice find.
harkening - February 3, 2010
Google Ralph Henriquez (Mariner farm hand) and Pat Vendette
hat tip JY.
Bearskin Rugburn - February 3, 2010
Greg Harris - a pitcher for several MLB teams in the '80s - also had this ability
Though he only used it in one game. Sort of surprised he didn’t stick with it….
marc w - February 3, 2010
Probably pointing out the obvious
Assuming no trades, I would probably want two pitchers from the Smoltz/Pedro/Calero/Park/Springer group of pitchers
Poochie - February 2, 2010
I would actually like to see the shit storm if Chan Ho Park signs with the M's.
w00tah - February 2, 2010
I doubt the team would go after two, but I'd be fine with one.
SethGrandpa - February 2, 2010
They have the money!
Poochie - February 2, 2010
I just want to say, Graham, that I really have enjoyed your writing as of late.
andrewgolfsalot - February 2, 2010
It's probably the pretty pictures!
Graham MacAree - February 2, 2010
Maybe he hated it before
Bearskin Rugburn - February 3, 2010
Hot damn our bullpen is stacked.
lailaihei - February 2, 2010
Did you mean
Langerhans/Byrnes platoon in left? Ichiro didn’t move positions again did he?
brinkislikevickheabusesdawgs - February 2, 2010
Yes I did. Thanks
Graham MacAree - February 2, 2010
It was a natural mistake
He’s from the other side of the pond, they drive on the opposite side of the road over there.
nathaniel dawson - February 2, 2010
This is a good peice, and I LOVE the Ichiro swing picture in the background.
However, you need to make some adjustments before you can make such lofty claims. It would help to consult the best Mariners blog for a start.
Don’t take this the wrong way – I love work like this and I think this is a good start. However, you need to spend a lot more time on considering the possibility of Griffey being our swing man the data for it to be of any use. It just depends on how much time you want to spend on studying this lineup…
lailaihei - February 2, 2010
Agree
it’s clearly high time that we start some kind of process to weed out front page material at LL, maybe something where a group of experts in the field review the material to determine its worthiness. This way we ensure that all variables are taken into account, and not just lazily ignored. But this was a good try.
Snuffleupagus - February 2, 2010
Rec'd for sheer self-referential looniness
The Ancient Mariner - February 3, 2010
Thanks Graham
Good stuff. You definitely know your baseball. Out of curiosity, how did an Englishman become so well versed in America’s pastime? Do you follow the EPL too?
Bohawk - February 2, 2010 via mobile
I've lived in the Pacific Northwest off and on since 1996. Baseball is interesting.
And yes, I follow the Premier League. After yesterday I don’t want to talk about it for a while.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Cheer up, Sunday's coming!
I’m terrified.
pdb - February 3, 2010
Chelsea fan? I can't believe they didn't get a result against Hull City. Hull City?
With Man U destroying Arsenal on the road on Sunday, this has not been a good week.
Coug1990 - February 3, 2010
Wow
I’m a die hard Chelsea fan too. Didn’t think there was another like me.
Bohawk - February 3, 2010 via mobile
Yeah it must be tough following a team as obscure as Chelsea
Aaron Campeau - February 3, 2010
yeah well
Living and breathing as a true die-hard Chelsea AND Mariners isn’t very common around my parts. My third and final team is an obscure one as well. Perhaps you’ve heard of it … Duke basketball?
Bohawk - February 4, 2010 via mobile
One of these things is not like the other.
abender20 - February 4, 2010
I feel like this all falls into place when someone gets hurt
I guess most of our injury prone players seem to be the nagging injury types, so maybe this doesn’t work as well. But, it seems to me we can go into the season with a six man bullpen or a short bench, on the assumption that someone gets injured enough to require a stint on the DL. But it seems like the kind of disaster scenarios that make the short bench a serious issue on the road could involve a longer injury time.
Snuffleupagus - February 2, 2010
Where's Mike Sweeney?
hcoguy - February 2, 2010
He changed his name to Ryan Garko
$cHu - February 2, 2010
And re-learned how to hit
The Ancient Mariner - February 3, 2010
FA.
http://blog.thenewstribune.com/mariners/2010/02/01/sweeney-in-seattle-one-more-spring/
wazzu93 - February 2, 2010
Sweet, bring him for Assistant Hitting Coach or something.
hcoguy - February 2, 2010
assistant in charge of group hugs
Paul AB - February 3, 2010
We better figure out what hand our middle and long relief pitchers bat
JBell523 - February 2, 2010
Or at least which one of them can pinch run
For Griffey
wandergeist - February 2, 2010
Lowe!
seattlebruin - February 3, 2010
Our set of position players is bizarrely versatile, which could be a full length post in its own right
Really? Figgins can play almost anywhere and Hannahan anywhere in the infield but the rest?
vj - February 3, 2010
Lopez 1B, 3B, Garko 3B, 1B, C, Gutz/Ichiro OF
Whether or not they can do it well is a different point.
CapSea - February 3, 2010
If we're talking realistically here, isn't Johnson more of a sure bet to be on the roster than Langerhans?
I’m pretty sure he is.
SethGrandpa - February 3, 2010
That's not really the point
since they won’t be competing for the same slot (unless Garko really impresses with the catcher’s mitt, which seems extremely unlikely); it’s more that there was no real value to Graham in trying to project which catchers would hold those two slots when his focus was on what would be done with other slots on the roster.
The Ancient Mariner - February 3, 2010
Johnson had three surgeries this winter
word is they were routine and he’s feeling well, but between that, being terrible last year, and having Moore, Bard, that dude from the Giants and maybe Garko to compete with means it’s wiser to just leave the two catcher slots blank.
Looking at it another way, as far as the Mariners’ roster is concerned two right handed catchers who aren’t very good hitters is sort of a constant.
Bearskin Rugburn - February 3, 2010
Uh...
Tom Lampkin is glaring at you.
ToddK - February 3, 2010
You don't to make Tommy mad.
he’s just 2 hours away.
msb - February 3, 2010
Sign Crash Davis
He’s a lefty, even!
robbbbbb - February 3, 2010
The contractual situations means that it's probably easier to have Johnson sent down than Langerhans
I didn’t really think it mattered a whole lot anyway.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Will Felix throw to anyone but Johnson?
d0nkey - February 3, 2010
Who cares? He's under contract for five years.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
That's a long throw from Seattle to Tacoma...
morrow - February 3, 2010
Jokes aside,
Does this not play into what they do with Rob Johnson this year?
d0nkey - February 3, 2010
That's a good question
I’m assuming Johnson makes the team if he’s healthy. I assume Bard makes it if Moore has an awful spring and Bard has a good one. I think Quiroz is the backup plan for Johnson, not Bard.
morrow - February 3, 2010
Johnson isn't the catcher of the future
Adam Moore is. I could easily see Moore stealing Johnson’s job in ST
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Yes please.
ToddK - February 3, 2010
I agree. I think Johnson is the backup catcher of the future.
I’m expecting (and hoping for) Moore as the starter.
morrow - February 3, 2010
You could argue for any two of the catchers we have to go on the roster
This is why I left the whole thing blank
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Yeah, I agree
But I don’t think they’ll carry two “offensive” catchers (Bard, Alfonso).
morrow - February 3, 2010
Or even Moore and one of those two
morrow - February 3, 2010
I'd been assuming that if Johnson wasn't ready to start the season the likely pairing would be Moore and Bard.
But as Graham points out, that’s pure conjecture. And anyway, not really a performance difference to worry about.
Lanky - February 3, 2010
My thought process on that is
that they’re both questionable defensively. Although, I suppose many would make that same argument about Johnson.
morrow - February 3, 2010
I guess I wasn't aware that Moore's defense was questionable.
Lanky - February 3, 2010
From what I recall (and I wish my Handbook would come so I can confirm)
Moore’s got catching-the-ball issues but his arm is ok.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
I found an old USS Mariner post where Dave mentions a "bit of a passed ball problem"
On a side note, I didn’t realize that catching the ball was required of M’s catchers.
Lanky - February 3, 2010
It appears to be systemic
Clement couldn’t catch, Johnson can’t catch, and Moore can’t catch. This ‘roving catcher instructor’ business doesn’t seem to be going too well.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Roger Hansen?
Could he be the problem, or is it more likely a trend in M’s drafting?
Lanky - February 3, 2010
I really have no idea
I don’t know very much about collegiate catcher defence or what Mr. Hansen actually does with them.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Yeah, this keeps coming up....
All these great quotes about the great strides Clement’s making, or how we don’t need to worry about X….he’s working with Hansen now! The return on investment doesn’t appear to be massive at this point.
marc w - February 3, 2010
I have no idea either
Since my direct observation of catcher development stopped at Little League, where the position could be better described as “backstopping” and therefore the defining qualification was to be the fattest kid on the team.
However, is it possible that the traits that define a “good defensive catcher” have to be developed early, and no amount of later instruction can turn a bad one into a good one? In that case, we might be talking about a failure in scouting rather than in the player-development folks. And it could have been a deliberate decision in the Bavasi era to look for catching prospects with good offensive projections rather than favoring high defensive ceilings.
It is of course complicated by the sparseness of catching stats, but perhaps we’ll be seeing a shift now towards defense mirroring the new emphasis round the rest of the diamond.
wandergeist - February 3, 2010
Clearly, the Bavasi/Fontaine folks looked for different skills
Rob Johnson was an OF in college and a part-time C, Jeff Clement had defensive ‘issues’ but obviously his bat made that issue seem like nit-picking. Moore, I don’t know, but the pattern was fairly clear for the guys who weren’t system depth.
Was that because they believed Hansen could work miracles on anyone with a decent amount of athleticism? Because they viewed catcher defense as overrated? Or because they prioritized offense? Impossible to know, but it would’ve been interesting to hear Fontaine talk about that sort of thing…
marc w - February 3, 2010
I don't think it is compared to Bard
morrow - February 3, 2010
Something to look at
Jeff on Bard’s defence.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Thanks, Graham
That’s an interesting read. You’d think Bochy (an ex-catcher) would pick up on that.
morrow - February 3, 2010
This post makes me excited to see Bard on the same roster with Bradley.
I hope he makes it, just for the tirades that could ensue.
Lanky - February 3, 2010
I cringed at this thought
But then I saw the silver lining: if the tirades are frequent and notable, and yet the team keeps winning (and goes on to the post-season), perhaps we could use it to finally bludgeon the “chemistry” fetishists into silence.
wandergeist - February 3, 2010
At the very least it will be entertaining to watch.
I put this roster’s chances of making the next Best Damn Sports Show List of Whatever at around 70%.
Lanky - February 3, 2010
We have about one competent defensive catcher in the whole organisation
Baron.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Quiroz? No?
Bearskin Rugburn - February 3, 2010
We has one defensive catcher in the whole organisation (who ever has any hope of a steady MLB job)
Baron.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
We has Baron cheezburgers?
wandergeist - February 3, 2010
I'd assume that barring Moore being really great or Bard being terrible in ST
That we’d open the season with one of Johnson/Moore and Bard. Having a catcher that can hit lefthanded is an asset.
Poochie - February 3, 2010
That's a good point
I hope it’s Moore instead of Johnson, though.
morrow - February 3, 2010
I hadn't thought of that.
I guess that would depend on the value to Moore of staying in AAA. It’s hard to imagine they would stunt his growth just for the platoon.
Or maybe it’s not hard to imagine.
Lanky - February 3, 2010
It doesn't necessarily have to be a straight platoon
I think Moore would also benefit from Bard’s experience (as someone pointed out earlier). I like it, especially since it appears I had under-estimated Bard’s defensive ability.
morrow - February 3, 2010
I'm just trying to say I don't think they would choose Johnson/Bard unless Moore looked really overmatched.
Lanky - February 3, 2010
Agreed
It would really be nice if Moore developed into a solid, dependable catcher for us. I like his chances.
morrow - February 3, 2010
Johnson is garbage, hes a terrible catcher
i dont get why people are such big supporters of him…i would rather give garko a chance behind the plate than have our rotation suffer with a tool named rob johnson behind the plate. a catcher should be able to do 3 things well. first CATCH THE BALL- johnson fails there…. 2 throw the ball- especially to 2nd before the opposing base runner gets there. and 3 call the right pitch for the player at the plate, thus inducing strikeouts, pop flys or ground outs, depending on the situation. so maybe we should invest in a catcher like that…
mariseanerhawk - February 5, 2010
I am not in midseason form, so I do not remember the baseball rule book
Graham, you mentioned that you thought Langerhans might have to pass through waivers to go to the minors. Would he really? If he were on the 25 man roster, then he would. But, at this time, there is no 25 man roster. He has a major league contract (split actually), but Dustin Ackley has a major league contract and he does not have to pass through anything. I would assume (there’s that word) that in spring training, Langerhans can just be reassigned to the minor leagues like the rest of the players that do not make the opening day roster.
I actually do not know the rule and Langerhans may end up making the roster, so this all could be for naught. Anyway, another good article. Thanks
Coug1990 - February 3, 2010
Players with major league deals (i.e. 40-man roster spots) can be optioned to the minors.
Ackley has (three) option years left. Langerhans doesn’t have any, so waivers for him. As far as I know, the split contract simply gives him a guaranteed salary should he pass through waivers successfully.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Thanks
I have been trying to figure that detail out, and that was very clearly stated.
el generico - February 3, 2010
I don't see the problem with a four man bench
But I do think we’ll see different configurations throughout the year. Basically, I see three different scenarios:
1. 12 pitchers
2. A fifth outfielder (Langerhans or Byrnes)
3. An extra infielder (Tui, Josh Wilson, etc.)
We’ll probably see each of those at some point during the season. I think there’s zero chance that Garko will be the second catcher.
morrow - February 3, 2010
A four man bench is a three man bench due to Junior.
Either all the time or just against left-handed pitching. A backup catcher cuts that down to two. You’re therefore going to be missing one out of a backup corner infielder, backup middle infielder, or backup outfielder. Junior’s lack of defensive value is a killer here.
Also, I don’t think there’s any way they use Garko as a second catcher. But it’s an interesting roster permutation, and I think it’d be super-neat.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Having this problem is not new to the Mariners
During Edgar’s last several years he was a DH only player like Griffey is now. Plus last year, both Griffey and Sweeney were both essentially DH only players, although Sweeney did get minor time at 1b.
Coug1990 - February 3, 2010
Edgar was never a platoon player.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
That is irrelevant and not the point. He used up a roster spot and could not play the field
Coug1990 - February 3, 2010
It is though, because a platoon player is half as valuable but still takes up that same full spot.
OlSalty - February 3, 2010
I am not arguing value. Of course a platoon DH is less valuable than a fulltime DH
The roster spot for a player that cannot play the field is the same.
Coug1990 - February 3, 2010
No, it's not
A platoon DH requires two roster spots by definition.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
That is not entirely correct (and I have to go after this post)
That is only true if there were two DH only players like last year. Since Bradley, Garko, etc., can still play the field they are not taking up an additional roster spot.
If Griffey were full time DH, the roster would still be the same, the PA’s would just be allocated differently for each player.
Regarding the bench, if Griffey contributes enough to keep his job (and I am not sure he will), he will be DH against the majority of RH starters. Therefore, there is a full and normal bench. He is not taking up two slots.
When there is a LH pitcher and Griffey sits, that is the only time there is a short bench. He then becomes a PH and there have been teams that have carried a PH for a season. It is not optimal, but it has happened. There is enough versatility with the players to work around a short bench when Griffey sits. In this scenario, he takes up one and a half.
So, proportionately, he takes up I am guessing 1.3 roster spots. Anyway, have a good day. I have to go.
Coug1990 - February 3, 2010
Anything more than one roster spot has to be budgeted like two, though
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Well if anyone needs to be cut into parts I nominate Rob Johnson.
Sec 108 - February 3, 2010
Because the difference is...
Edgar, as a full time DH, was almost never on the bench. That meant that when the game started all the players on the bench could play somwhere in the field.
Junior, as a platoon DH, will frequently start the game on the bench. Which means one of the bench slots is only available as a PH whenever he is not the DH.
What I am saying is that, yes, having a platoon DH is different than having a full time DH on a roster.
Paul AB - February 3, 2010
I meant you need 2 platoon players to make 1 normal DH
Platoon players require partners, which means another roster spot you could’ve used elsewhere.
OlSalty - February 3, 2010
That's the definition of a DH though
and if you have one guy doing it full time it’s not a loss in value, like a platoon player is.
pdb - February 3, 2010
Moreover, Edgar was a good hitter and had value to the team.
abender20 - February 3, 2010
Yes. Ours uses up two.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
During Edgar’s last several years he was a DH only player like Griffey is now.
The difference being that Edgar could still hit effectively.
ToddK - February 3, 2010
Hannahan and Byrnes (or Langerhans) are your backups
Beyond that, you need at a backup catcher, and that’s it. Their versatility covers the 2nd backup issues. The depth chart as I see it:
OF: (starters), Byrnes, Figgins, Garko, Griffey
2B: Lopez, Figgins, Hannahan
SS: Wilson, Figgins, Hannahan/Lopez
3B: Figgins, Hannahan, Garko
C: Moore, Johnson, Garko
I think they’re probably thinner than they’d like, but certainly doable.
morrow - February 3, 2010
That would force Griffey to play more.
If you only have one of Byrnes and Langerhans, they cannot platoon effectively when Bradley’s DHing. Therefore more Bradley in left. Therefore more Griffey at DH.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
That's just it, I don't see Bradley as a DH
I think it will be Garko and Griffey in an ~50% split, more or less, depending on how Griffey hits. I know a lot of people disagree with that, but I haven’t seen any indication that I’m wrong. If something happens (For instance, Bradley can’t play LF, but can hit) then I think the M’s add another OF.
morrow - February 3, 2010
I disagree pretty strongly regarding Griffey, and I suspect the Mariners agree with me
But clearly that’s the crux of the argument. So we’ll see.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
I think the hope is that you're right and that Garko becomes redundant.
I see Garko as reliable insurance for Griffey and Kotchman. The best of all possible worlds? Bradley is a healthy, everyday player, Griffey is an offensive force, and Byrnes returns to 2007 form. And then Garko is largely irrelevant. Fears? Bradley is oft-injured, Griffey continues his decline, and Kotchman really was a highly overrated prospect who can’t produce enough to be an everyday MLB 1B. In those cases, Byrnes is insurance for Bradley, Langerhans for Byrnes, and Garko for either Griffey or Kotchman. All in all, I think the M’s have very solid contingency plans.
morrow - February 3, 2010
My expected scenario is Griffey is the DH against RHP at home, with Bradley in left
All other situations have Bradley at DH and the Langerhans/Byrnes platoon in left. Garko and Kotchman platoon at first.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
And that, essentially, is where our disagreement lies.
I don’t think the M’s see Langerhans as a viable starter. But, you’re right, we shall see. :)
morrow - February 3, 2010
In this situation, Langerhans gets less playing time than Bradley or Byrnes
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
I really think the M's want Kotchman as the everyday 1B.
With Garko filling in only occasionally. Of course, if Kotchman fails to hit, then that is a different story. Also, there is an outside chance that Byrnes forces the issue by playing really well.
morrow - February 3, 2010
I can only see one reason not to be platooning Kotchman and Garko
And that’s if you’re committed to playing Bradley in the OF at all times and using a Griffey/Garko DH platoon.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
And I think that's the expectation, but...
there is one more reason: They think Kotchman will turn out to be the player he was always expected to be. And that means hitting left-handers. I think Kotchman is one of the key players this year. He could really surprise to the upside and that would change the whole perception of the offense.
morrow - February 3, 2010
The FO isn't going to ignore quite a bit of data in favor of hype and expectations from 2005.
Assuming Kotchman is going to suddenly start hitting same-handed pitching would be crazy.
abender20 - February 3, 2010
He hasn
morrow - February 3, 2010
He hasn't shown much of a platoon split.
I don’t think they give a rat’s ass about hype. I think they care A LOT about their own assessments, however.
morrow - February 3, 2010
What's the point of hoping Kotchman hits LHP at a (reasonably) high level when Garko already can?
edddgar - February 3, 2010
Because they're hoping for Olerud
Not Mientkiewicz
morrow - February 3, 2010
This is what Bavasi would do
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
What? Z acquired Kotchman.
You don’t think he considered his upside potential?
morrow - February 3, 2010
Of course but he's not going to count on it happening
OlSalty - February 3, 2010
I'm a 6'0" lefty. I can be Olerud too.
abender20 - February 3, 2010
You need to grow 5 inches posthaste.
redwolf75 - February 3, 2010
at least buy him dinner first
pdb - February 3, 2010
....
I hate you. Should have seen that one coming, DAMN!
redwolf75 - February 3, 2010
This one is also sexual.
CapSea - February 3, 2010
Exactly. That's why (one reason) I think they have Garko.
morrow - February 3, 2010
Which is why Garko will be his platoon partner unless Kotchman does break out
OlSalty - February 3, 2010
He considered it
But Bavasi loved signing people just for upside, and he used to plan around that upside. He called it ‘catching lightning in a bottle’ and it make me want to flay him
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
In other words, while they may be hoping for Olerud, they're not expecting it
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Absolutely.
morrow - February 3, 2010
WWBBD?
seattlebruin - February 3, 2010
Sign Damon to a 6 yr contract.
ToddK - February 3, 2010
Mientkiewicz was good
Poochie - February 3, 2010
No
They’ll be hoping for that, but planning for a breakout is, frankly, stupid.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
Exactly. I find that this FO is very pragmatic which I enjoy immensely.
Sec 108 - February 3, 2010
That's one reason they have Garko.
They’re not planning on a breakout from Kotchman, but he’s one of the guys where it’s a reasonable possibility.
morrow - February 3, 2010
Please stop asserting that you know what the front office plans to do.
abender20 - February 3, 2010
Disclaimer
Everything I write is my opinion and is no way intended to be taken, in any way, as representing or associated with the Seattle Mariners.
morrow - February 3, 2010
Well duh.
abender20 - February 3, 2010
Make up your mind
If you know I’m merely stating my opinion, why do you accuse me of “asserting that I know what the front office plans to do”?
morrow - February 3, 2010
Because you state your opinion in a way which makes it sound like you have inside information from the front office
which we are fairly sure you do not, since you have never indicated this to be the case.
seattlebruin - February 3, 2010
Well, no you can be certain I don't
Maybe I should use IMHO more? I thought chatspeak was discouraged, though.
morrow - February 3, 2010
Maybe you shouldn't say things like this
Maybe if you phrased it “I don’t think they are expecting a breakout from Kotchman, but it’s possible.”
seattlebruin - February 3, 2010
At one point in time, I did that
But, I read something that made me stop doing it so much. It was something like this:
Using I think, I believe, etc
morrow - February 3, 2010
While that may be true of essay-writing, it's not really true of dialogue
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
I'm not dismissing the point
I’m only explaining my reasoning. Believe me, I will adopt that style.
morrow - February 3, 2010
Sure
I was just explaining why we don’t think that applies.
Graham MacAree - February 3, 2010
We're not writing papers here
there’s no need to thoroughly convince your audience of your point. If you come off as an asshole by writing authoritatively when you are clearly trying to represent what the FO will do, that will cause a lot of people to dislike the way you post.
I hope you understand the difference between writing authoritatively when you are attempting to convince an audience of a point and writing in a similar style when you are trying to have a discussion.
seattlebruin - February 3, 2010
Well,
abender20 - February 3, 2010
Bad example
If you read my whole comment, (I think) you’ll see why.
morrow - February 3, 2010
I think you'll find
that this comment is one of those comments that is a good example of how you come off the wrong way to other posters.
It is very argumentative and makes no substantive point other than to belittle the other commenter. This is not something that is acceptable or tolerated at Lookout Landing.
Thanks!
seattlebruin - February 3, 2010
You can assert that something is your opinion without using chatspeak
Phrases like “I think” or “here’s how it looks to me” aren’t that onerous to type.
pdb - February 3, 2010
There is a degree of uncertainty you (and by you I mean anyone without inside information) should probably assert when phrasing your posts which I don't think you have been
I think the reason people have argued with you over minor points is you have been posting with a rather concrete, authoritative tone that’s just begging for people to correct when there is some better logic to the contrary.
It’s not really a big deal, but it would probably help you out.
OlSalty - February 3, 2010
Fair point and duly noted
Thanks for the thoughtful, sincere response. To be fair, I think most of my comments are written that way.
morrow - February 3, 2010
And everyone here ignores this from time to time.
Doesn’t excuse it, but everyone’s jumping all over morrow, and yet we all do this. It’s fine to be explicit about this sort of thing, but I think it’s a reach to think that morrow was asserting he had inside info that Garko was acquired to back-up Kotchman who is about to go nuts on the league.
marc w - February 3, 2010
If you guys look over this thread again, you'll see that there have been other people that have asserted their thoughts in concrete terms.
Including yourself, Ol Salty. And I didn’t see anyone criticizing them for their choice of words.
And if you look at morrow’s posts, you’ll see many times where he uses terms like “I think” “I hope” “I see this as”. Saying he’s argumentative is one thing, and perhaps appropriate. But telling him he can’t comment in the same manner as other posters is holding him to a different standard.
nathaniel dawson - February 3, 2010
Which after refreshing, I see is the same thing that marc just said.
nathaniel dawson - February 3, 2010
Yes I realize that we all do it from time to time
But I wouldn’t say people do it regularly, and the content of those authoritative statements is usually supported by the available evidence. When you’re saying something that doesn’t make sense authoritatively people are going to argue with you, whereas if you say something that is much more likely to be true people will let it slide. However I think it is something everyone needs to work on avoiding in this type of setting, including myself.
OlSalty - February 3, 2010
Subtract Lopez for Ackley and we get even more bizarrely versatile
lemonverbena - February 3, 2010
Yeah, because then we'd have have guys who play on both major and minor league rosters at the same time. That's flexible.
abender20 - February 3, 2010
Can someone green thumb abender20's comment?
Andrew E - February 3, 2010
No
5 people can
Dewey N - February 3, 2010
Subtle environmentalism. I like it.
Zygomorphic - February 3, 2010
I don't get it
Call me stupid
lemonverbena - February 3, 2010
Ryan Garko as a catcher -
Not exactly knowing his “greatness” at catcher, he did indeed win the Johnny Bench Award in 2003 while at Stanford. This award honors college baseball’s best catcher. 2004 was Kurt Suzuki, then Jeff Clement in 2005. Ryan Garko Wins Johnny Bench Award
thebluefox - February 3, 2010
So it's an award for offensive production
Primarily. Kind of like the Gold Glove.
wandergeist - February 3, 2010
Jeff Clement eh
Jeff Sullivan - February 3, 2010
Also won by noted glove-first catcher Kelly Shoppach!
marc w - February 3, 2010
Most disliked prospect?
Edgar for Pres - February 3, 2010
Bedard
Mlbtraderumors.com has posted a rumor that the M’s are re-engaging Bedard in resigning talks. I love that website almost as much as this one.
DJPinPDX - February 3, 2010
Hmm, injury risk?
too much of a risk for injury, although if we keep him cheap and he stays healthy, we would have a pretty dominate rotation. It’s hard to want to keep a guy that Bavasi traded for.
thebluefox - February 3, 2010
For sure
But a half season of Bedard is probably as valuable as a full season of Washburn.
OlSalty - February 3, 2010
Also at this point if he cost much of anything I would be beyond shocked.
CapSea - February 3, 2010
Bedard should be viewed as a mid-season pick-up
Like a trade-deadline acquisition, because he isn’t going to be ready to pitch before then (if all goes according to plan — it’s not like he hasn’t had “setbacks” before). So he’s pennant-push material at best. And doesn’t at all answer the question of what #3 pitcher to be targeting for opening day. (Pedro for the first half and Bedard for the second? What with all the other platoons happening on this team, why not?)
wandergeist - February 3, 2010
Weld them together and make an ambidextrous starter who can go 12 innings.
hcoguy - February 4, 2010
Garko at catcher
I’m one of the contributors from LetsGoTribe stopping by. Garko has his merits when used in a limited capacity. He is not a backup catcher. I think should the Mariners try to go that route the team will quickly discover this. Garko can serve as an emergency catcher, but he doesn’t have the quickness behind the plate, arm strength, or game-calling ability to be a backup catcher at the big league level.
APV - February 4, 2010
Rob Johnson has vastly lowered my standards for 'acceptable catcher'
Graham MacAree - February 4, 2010
I don't get the call calling thing
because worst case scenario can’ they just call the game from the bench?
Poochie - February 4, 2010
Thanks for the Cleveland perspective.
We have very little to go on regarding his play behind the plate, it’s something we’ve been contemplating around here. It’s nice to hear an opinion from a fan of the team he came up with.
nathaniel dawson - February 4, 2010
It is just a telling sign that while they were willing to (disastrously) give him some time in the outfield, he never once caught an inning in Cleveland.
APV - February 4, 2010
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