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Lookout Landing

A Thought

Most of the people who drop by LL should have some basic understanding of wOBA. You may not know how to calculate it, or you may know how but have no desire to calculate it, or something else, but we talk about it enough around here that you should kind of know how it's built. As our preferred metric for measuring offensive productivity, wOBA uses the empirically-derived run values of major batting events (singles, doubles, triples...) to spit out a hitter's performance in one neat, tidy number.

It's great, and wOBA gets us a good deal beyond OPS and even the wonderfully informative triple slash line. That the online community has taken to wOBA with the speed that it has is no small feat, if you consider how long it usually takes people to change their minds on even trivial things.

But I've had something paying rent in the back of my mind for a few weeks, now, ever since tango re-posted this list of event run values from 2006 (original source: Appelman, Fangraphs). In the calculation, wOBA sets the run value of an out to be zero. All outs. If you sum up all of a hitter's positive contributions, what you're left with are his outs, and for the average hitter, his outs don't contribute anything. Okay, so the outs actually come out to be worth about -0.3 runs, and this is then used as the baseline for all the other run values, but the point is, wOBA uses a constant for this. Every hitter's outs are considered equivalent.

This is a fine assumption, because by and large, they are. It makes very little difference. But what about when you're dealing with a guy like Ichiro? There are a few things we know about Ichiro that could matter, here:

  • Ichiro makes a lot of contact
  • Ichiro puts the ball on the ground a lot
  • Ichiro is fast
  • Ichiro very rarely hits into a double play

Ichiro hits a lot of grounders, and he hits a lot of grounders with men on and fewer than two outs. A groundout with nobody on is worth the same as a strikeout. A groundout with men on will either not advance the runners, which is worth the same as a strikeout, or it will advance the runners or replace one of them with Ichiro, which is worth a little more than a strikeout. (Rarely will an Ichiro grounder result in a guy getting thrown out at third or home.) Some groundouts will go for double plays, but as Ichiro has demonstrated over his career, this is unusual; his double play rate is roughly a third the league average.

So, I have to wonder - is wOBA undervaluing Ichiro a little bit? Given 450 outs a season, if Ichiro's average out run value is just 0.013 higher than the league average, then we're talking about an additional five runs. I could very easily be missing something, of course, and all this may not mean anything at all, but it's been on my mind.

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Something else worth noting - the Fangraphs version of wOBA, to the best of my knowledge, does not include reaching on errors. Making defenders mess up is not really a skill, but putting them in position to mess up most definitely is, so contact, groundball hitters tend to reach on errors more often than anybody else. The league average rate of reaching on errors is roughly 0.9-1% of all plate appearances, whereas Ichiro's up at 1.3%, a difference that comes out to another 2-3 runs a season if you consider it part of his value. Remember to consider this and also Ichiro's additional baserunning value when you consider his WAR.

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Update: as mentioned in the comments, something I forgot - wOBA does slightly overrate Ichiro's singles, as many of them are of the infield variety, and infield singles seldom advance runners two bases. This makes a small difference, but it's a difference.

1 recs  |  38 comments

Comments

I was just thinking about this same thing

This article at THT makes me think you are right. It sounds like Ichiro basically gains ~+5 runs per year because he doesn’t hit into double plays. +5 runs isn’t huge but its definitely significant.

My guess is that once Hit f/x is made widely available,

There will be a lot of recalculating that needs to be done with a lot of the statistics. You’re right: there is SOME value to Ichiro’s groundballedness (Yes, that’s a word. Trust me) just as there is SOME value to hitting a deep fly ball to right with a man on 2nd or 3rd. Without knowing where and how hard the ball is hit, though, it’s tough to put a quantitative measure on it

Does this work?

So we think wOBA is undervaluing Ichiro because it isn’t measuring all the details. Why not use a WPA derived metric?

Ichiro lifetime totals and per year totals (runs)
wRAA 156.2 / 17.0
RE24 222.7 / 24.7

Looking at these numbers, we can figure that Ichiro has produced about 7.8 runs more per year than wOBA has expected.

Thinking about this makes quite a bit of sense actually. Lets say he is +3 runs at preventing double plays, +3 runs at reaching on errors and +2 on other base running stuff. I think all those numbers are pretty reasonable and get us at around the right final number.

A note: Reach base on error (RBOE) is included in the wOBA formula.
At least I thought it was.

Maybe Fangraphs doesnt include this but Tango does?

Tango has:

(0.72xNIBB + 0.75xHBP + 0.90×1B + 0.92xRBOE + 1.24×2B + 1.56×3B + 1.95xHR) / PA

.92 for a RBOE, thats greater than a single!! Probably because baserunners tend to advance more on this play (Overthrow the first basement, ball goes to the dugout, etc).

Statcorner has it.
Not in Fangraphs' version
I looked at this about a week ago or so but wasn't sure about it

RE24 seems inflated. Last year there was a league total of +86 runs by RE24, and -12 by wRAA. RE24 also fails to remove Ichiro from context, which I like about wOBA.

Yeah I agree it looks a little weird and I'm not sure how I feel about it exactly

If you want to have a stat that keeps track of double plays then you need to keep track of context to see how many chances he had to hit into a double play vs how many he hit into. The same can be said for baserunning. I like wOBA for the same reason you do but it has a difficult time keeping track of the intricacies you brought up above.

I've confused myself but maybe somebody can unmuddle things for me

Instead of using RE24 we could just use WPA or WPA/LI and convert it to a runs basis.
WPA 208.9 runs
WPA/LI 146.2 runs

WPA says Ichiro is a lot more valuable than what wOBA says but WPA/LI says he is maybe a little less valuable. I would assume WPA would overvalue Ichiro but I would have thought WPA/LI would be higher than the wRAA run value. Confusing to me. Confusing to you?

Also, Ichiro is real fucking Clutch (fangraphs stat) but I’m not sure if this relates to what we are talking about.

While wOBA might undervalue Ichiro in this manner

I would think that it could also OVERVALUE him in that it gives him too much value for some of his singles. Ichiro’s infield singles are never going to move a runner from 1st to 3rd or 2nd to Home. Someone else’s singles are almost all going to be line drives to the outfield that may move a runner two bases.

Of course, it undervalues his baserunning ability.

I would love to eventually see a version of wOBA that accounted for type of outs, type of singles (infield/outfield), etc. But even then, its not going to be very different. Ichiro is one of the most extreme cases where it will make a difference.

Whoops, forgot about this

I’ve thought about Ichiro’s infield singles for so long that in my head I thought I’d already posted about it. You’re absolutely right – wOBA slightly overvalues Ichiro’s singles. Adjusting for infield singles costs him about 3 runs a year.

How many of Ichiro's infield singles come with runners on, though?

It may slightly overvalue his singles, but to the tune of 1/3 of a win? I’d like to see the math behind this. Thinking that a lot of his infield singles probably come with no one on, given that a fielder’s choice could be available in that case.

Run value of a single is about 0.77

Run value of an infield single is about 0.70. Ichiro has 338 infield singles and 50 bunt singles in his career, so 388 * 0.07 = 27 runs.

Bunt singles may come more often/exclusively with the bases empty, but still, the point is valid.

Correction

Gotta account for the league-average infield singles rate first. Whoops.

League average: 14.8% of singles are infield/bunt
Ichiro: 23.5% of singles are infield/bunt

This drops us to around one run a year. Hooray!

Sorry, nope, did it wrong again

Got tired of confusing myself so I just did the wOBA calculations manually. End result? About two runs.

This was worthwhile
I enjoyed it.
But humorous!
Per B-R, Ichiro has 2312 PA with men on (out of 6607 total PA, or 35%) with a .336 BA

He has 783 PA with a man on first (and hit .331). He’s got 43 GDP over that time (though B-R’s event finder turns up 71 — I don’t know what that’s about). I don’t know how many of those are infield singles (probably not many, since as you say they’d tend to result in a FC not a hit, though B-R says 461 of his 2030 hits were to the infield), but it’s fair to say whatever he does he isn’t hurt by having runners on ahead of him.

Obviously man on first isn’t the only way to hit into a double-play, but the GDP stat or event finder should be picking up the total number.

By comparison, Chone Figgins has 1562 PA with men on (out of 4075 total PA, or 38%) and hit .314 in those situations. He has 612PA with a man on first (and hit .318). Despite having many fewer PA, he already has 45 GDP (again, B-R’s event finder turns up 68).

This is kind of turning into an argument for having Ichiro hit after Figgins, actually….

(It would be interesting to compare Ichiro to some other good lead-off hitters. Rickey Henderson, for example, had 4618 PA with men on out of 13,346 (!) total PA or again about 35%. He had 1808 PA with a man on first and managed to hit .300 in those situations; he had 173 GDP in his career — or 210 according to the event finder)

The point was to take the weights into account.

Where as the weight of an infield single is 0.70 runs, this is based on the average run production of an infield single. Some infield singles are worth more, some are worth less and when it’s averaged and scored against an out-value of zero, you come up with 0.70 runs per infield single. However, based on when Ichiro gets his infield hits, they could be worth no less than his average single.

Consider that Ichiro as a lead off hitter, barring injury, is guaranteed 162 plate appearances with nobody on. If he gets an infield single or a line drive single or even a walk, it’s all worth the same. It puts a runner on first with nobody out in the first inning. The game state at the end of all three of these scenarios is identical. My intention was to question whether Ichiro’s infield singles all truly weight to 0.70 or more or less.

Truth be told, I wouldn’t be surprised if Ichiro as a lead off hitter is helped by the weights in general.

If Ichiro is hurt in some cases and aided in others, wOBA shouldn’t be too far off from his true value. If he’s truly +5 runs better over the course of a season, that bumps his career wOBA by .006. I’m not too concerned about it.

Ehh

I’m less interested in evaluating Ichiro within the context of his role, and more interested in evaluating his true talent. That’s how we’re able to make comparisons to other players around the league.

what is a good wOBA?

265+ is a decent batting average, 280+ is good, 300+ is great, 330+ is excellent

320 obp is decent, 333 is good, 350+ is great, 400+ is excellent

how’s wOBA work out?

and feel free to argue with my obp marks, i’m not married to them, just sorta threw it out there off the cuff

wOBA's on the OBP scale

so anything that would be a good OBP is a good wOBA.

mind blown

i must be thinking about some other metric then, crap

thanks for the help tho!
Just a friendly note,

please use proper capitalization and avoid “chatspeak” style spellings where possible.

.335 was league average OBP

I believe

That's the rough estimate I usually go with.

Last year, the AL average was .336. The NL’s was .331.

Does the NL average include pitchers? And if so, what is the average not including pitchers?
As an aside, I'd love it if you could see pitching metrics that excluded pitchers faced

for things like swinging strikes, Ks, etc.

B-R has splits for a lot of that

not StrSw and whatnot, but Ks and walks for sure. Pineiro’s K rate last year was laughable once you take the pitchers out.

I believe so. I just peeked at the averages at BP.

Not sure where to find it without pitchers.

Discussion at The Book Blog

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/does_linear_weights_out_value_undervalue_ichiro/

Is the short version of this discussion (up to comment 16)

that wOBA and linear weights do undervalue Ichiro, but getting to a good measurement isn’t easy ? It could be anywhere from 10 to 80 runs since 2002?

Works for me

There’s probably something in there, but it’s not huge. Biggest cause is likely that Ichiro doesn’t GIDP.

I've got a lot bigger issues with FIP than wOBA

…but I’m not sure how one would resolve them, or even if you’d want to do so. Basically, I’m not a real big fan of having a stat that tells me how a pitcher would do, theoretically, if he pitched in a neutral park. A pitch to contact guy who plays at the Safe is going to have more things going for him than a pitch to contact guy at Coors. There’s some point in all of this where two guys with differing K/9 and BB/9 and so on will pitch just as well as one another at a given park but their FIP won’t reflect that.

Okay, so I admit this is a stupid post in that I’m sort of advocating looking at 8 or 9 stats instead of 1, but that’s okay because I am awesome.

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