Biggest Contribution: Ian Snell, +25.0%
Biggest Suckfest: Kanekoa Texeira, -21.6%
Most Important AB: Bradley fly out, -8.0%; Gutierrez single, +8.0% (wild pitch: +9.7%)
Most Important Pitch: Ellis single, -38.3%
Total Contribution by Pitcher(s): +31.7%
Total Contribution by Lineup: -91.9%
Total Contribution by Opposition: +10.2%
(What is this chart?)
0 recs | 212 comments
i think biggest suckfest on tex is unfair
Maybe bradley was more deserving there, tex got out of the bot 9 jam and was looking good in the 10th before you know what happened…
mariseanerhawk - April 6, 2010 via mobile
Those are calculated by WPA.
Not some arbitrary number Jeff decides to give a player.
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
i get that totally, i just dont agree with the system.
maybe if milton had more patience and less hostility….
mariseanerhawk - April 6, 2010
The system is based on years and years and years of data.
Aaron Campeau - April 6, 2010
And is a good way to dole out who was the best and worst
It beats the hell out of arbitrarily picking them by looks. The system tells you who screwed up or did well and, more importantly, when they did it and what it cost the team.
Brian Floyd - April 6, 2010
ok so maybe i'm just blind as to what tex did wrong then???
i dont care how many years of data you build, tex got us out of the bottom of the 9th and he was ahead on the 0-2 count and pitch low and out of the zone trying to a) get the K swinging or b) induce the groundball, both of which are the right thing to do. some one aid me in my confusion please.
mariseanerhawk - April 6, 2010
It's not about what he tried to do
but about what he did.
RunningFool - April 6, 2010
He was on the mound when shitty things happened.
Don’t read too much into it.
Teej - April 6, 2010
Fangraphs uses some different calculations
But here’s an explanation of WE
BrianL - April 6, 2010
The link at the bottom of the chart is also very helpful
BrianL - April 6, 2010
Follow the hotlink embedded in the chart "What's this chart?" in blue up there.
Nice tidy explanation all ready to go.
Kermit. - April 6, 2010
Please capitalize.
CapSea - April 6, 2010
Texeria can do no wrong.
rawr
ErictheRed - April 7, 2010
He has an above average BB%
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
I wouldn't really pin it on Bradley either...
WPA sometimes doesn’t really give you the villain.
Sidi - April 6, 2010
The whole lineup works here, too
Brian Floyd - April 6, 2010
Very true...
How about…“The team lost.”
Sidi - April 6, 2010
-91.9% on the lineup. Guh.
lemonverbena - April 6, 2010
Seems about right.
marc w - April 6, 2010
you mean 10 k's by the starter doesnt equal good stats for our line up??? thats bushly.
mariseanerhawk - April 6, 2010
Please capitalise. Thanks
aussie_chop - April 6, 2010
Bush league?
appleshampoo - April 7, 2010
Not wild about the bullpen management!
Poochie - April 6, 2010
I'm a little steamed.
Teej - April 6, 2010
If Wak is fired I will feel better about myself
Poochie - April 6, 2010
Texieria wasn't bad, but what's the point in stockpiling power arms if you go to your 5th best reliever in a tie game in the ninth?
Poochie - April 6, 2010
Reason why I hate the six man pen especially with this current staff (minus Lee).
The manager has to stick with guys longer than normal. If he brings in League in the 10th to put out the fire, he’s got nearly nobody left.
I would recommend in the future, not using Kelley and Texeira in the same game, especially before you use all your other guys.
Rudy4three - April 6, 2010
Biggest suckfest: Wakamatsu
What the fuck is up with his use of the bullpen?
harkening - April 6, 2010
n/s
I though the bullpen was used fine tonight, might have let Kelley go two innings, but I don’t have a big issue with it outside of that.
MFAN - April 6, 2010
You don't put pitchers in the game just to get them work. You leverage your pitchers to improve your odds of winning.
Wak is operating with the first paradigm.
They were trying to "stretch out" Kelley in spring training to throw 3 innings as needed, and Mark Lowe is supposed to be able to go 2 innings-ish. After using three pitchers last night, Wak left himself with only one reliever who was "fresh" (Tex).
The idea that these early games are your chance to "get work in" has to go. Texeira wasn’t bad, but he was essentially thrown to the dogs. I’m sure League could have thrown some more pitches after last night, and DA is nominally an everyday closer–but in a tie ball game, high leverage situation, Wak had no idea if he was staring at a 9-inning game or a 15-inning game. If it goes 15, what then? I mean, honestly: what then?
harkening - April 6, 2010
If Kelley and Lowe go two innings tonight, then you don't have them tomorrow.
So Texeira likely would of had to pitch tomorrow anyways, plus he looked good. The bullpen is good, so outside of White I really don’t have a problem with any of these guys in a high leverage situation.
MFAN - April 6, 2010
"would of?"
I’ve never understood where this comes from. It makes as much sense as typing “wood oeuvres.”
short - April 6, 2010
The contraction would've sounds similar to would of
Mariner John - April 6, 2010
Sure, but...
It simply doesn’t make sense to type “would of.” The words, put together like that, are senseless. I get why a lot of grammar mistakes happen, but that one has always eluded me.
short - April 6, 2010
I always thought it was an error. People writing "would of" instead of "would have".
royalcurve - April 6, 2010
The thing is that if you end up going more than ten innings, who is going to pitch? Vargas?
seattlebruin - April 6, 2010
He barely did anything wrong tonight
Only questionable call was yanking Kelley after one.
Jeff Sullivan - April 6, 2010
That's where we disagree.
See above post. I’m not saying the result would have been different, but I’m process-oriented.
harkening - April 6, 2010
I think Jeff is process oriented as well.
I think he’s saying Wak barely did anything wrong.
Aaron Campeau - April 6, 2010
Yeah, I didn't understand only using Kelley for one. You only have two relievers capable of giving
multiple innings and you pull one guy after he pitches one, and you bring the other guy in shortly after. You are putting yourself in a tough spot where you can’t pull Texeira if he doesn’t have it because you may run out of relievers pretty quickley if you do.
Rudy4three - April 6, 2010
Not saying Texeira pitched all that poorly tonight, but by bringing your last long man in so early
you have to stay committed to him longer than you might like
As useless as the 7th man in the pen usually is, it’s comforting for a manager to know he has some dude like Garrett Olson who can mop up 4-5 innings if need be. I think it allows a manager some freedom in his bullpen changes
Rudy4three - April 6, 2010
Exactly!
Especially since Kanekoa has never seen anything ahead of AA ball. He’s good; he’s got talent. He’ll probably be a useful tool out of the bullpen this year. But I don’t like the use of him here.
harkening - April 6, 2010
I don't have much issue with the way he actually pitched, but if we
had a mop up guy in there, or if he hadn’t just burnt Kelley by using him one inning, then maybe he goes to League to get Ellis with two on and two out.
I don’t know, I just think you limit your freedom when you carry only six relievers and use both your long men so early in the game
Rudy4three - April 6, 2010
You limit your freedom when your 'long man' can only go 1 inning...
If Kelley is going to be that guy then you have to be able to trust him to go more than 18 pitches in a tie game.
mwalter - April 6, 2010
I have a problem with going to Texieria in that situation over Aardsma
Poochie - April 6, 2010
Or over League.
harkening - April 6, 2010
With no offdays for the forseeable future I can understand not wanting to burn through both of them unless it was an emergency
Poochie - April 6, 2010
Hence the "or" instead of "and."
If you had gone to League, you still have Aardsma. If you go to Aardsma, you still have League. I’m not suggesting use both of them. I’m saying, in that situation, why put in Tex when one or the other is available?
harkening - April 6, 2010
Well Aardsma was warming up
If you warm him up in a tie game, use him
Poochie - April 6, 2010
Ah! I did not catch that Aardsma was up.
This makes all the difference.
harkening - April 6, 2010
Well if that is how our #4 pitcher is going to pitch, then I am looking forward to our rotation at full strength!
Fin - April 6, 2010
81-81!
RunningFool - April 6, 2010
Can someone explain the "?
I just got home and am trying to figure out what happened
Trev - April 6, 2010
The what?
RunningFool - April 6, 2010
That was supposed to say the "
it’s on the graph at Braden’s feet.
Trev - April 6, 2010
"pointless"
SBN hates me
Trev - April 6, 2010
I think it's pointing at the design on his shoe
That’s covered up by his pant leg 95% of the time.
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
Braden can't feel his left foot because of nerve damage from a biopsy
Jeff Sullivan - April 6, 2010
Duh
Jeff Sullivan - April 6, 2010
Shoot
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
Question mark
Denotes an interrogatory statement
lemonverbena - April 6, 2010
I hate not having a backup infielder
Poochie - April 6, 2010
You guys can have Patterson
(first post on LL, I’m normally on AN)
cuppingmaster - April 6, 2010
What's Tui?
(Okay, only slightly better than chopped liver, but he is there!)
harkening - April 6, 2010
Well, at least Snell was good.
Cablinasian - April 6, 2010
Sort of.
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
He wasn't terrible!
Jeff Sullivan - April 6, 2010
Well hot dog!
Torrid - April 6, 2010
Progress!
the other side - April 6, 2010
It's all relative to expectations.
Cablinasian - April 6, 2010
I love Ian Snell!
Dewey N - April 6, 2010
Then why don't you just marry him
Jeff Sullivan - April 6, 2010
Shawty's got some fine competition nawmsayin
Dewey N - April 6, 2010
I can't stand him
Poochie - April 6, 2010
I'm with you on this.
Phil Hatzenbuehler - April 7, 2010
I am indifferent
OlSalty - April 6, 2010
He's okay
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
I agree
Jeff Sullivan - April 6, 2010
Oh just marry him already
Poochie - April 6, 2010
Seriously.
Dewey N - April 6, 2010
But he's drinking your beer! Look at him!
Eyebrows - April 6, 2010
He's only moistening the rim
Jeff Sullivan - April 6, 2010
Everything about this sentence is disgusting
Jeff Sullivan - April 6, 2010
mie
Dewey N - April 6, 2010
Oh so this is what Scruffy needed your gif for.
BrianL - April 6, 2010
You missed the pregame thread, didn't you?
Eyebrows - April 6, 2010
I was driving home from miserable Chehalis, so I did not see this.
BrianL - April 6, 2010
Rec'd for "miserable Chehalis"
pmc47 - April 6, 2010
Agreed
Why in the name of hell were you in Chehalis Brian?
Robert Lintott - April 7, 2010
Work.
BrianL - April 7, 2010
You two collaborating on gifs is kind of scary and thrilling all at once.
Kermit. - April 6, 2010
I could'nt take my eye off of the fact a Mariner fan has an avatar of Rex Hudler.
Bizarre and interesting at the same time.
44FAN - April 7, 2010
Is there another synonym for indifferent?
ErictheRed - April 6, 2010
Texeira would probably know.
Teej - April 6, 2010
Disinterested
Paytheline - April 6, 2010
I leaning towards this one.
ErictheRed - April 6, 2010
Apathetic?
But what do you know, they have tools for that on this thing called the Internet. Like this one.
harkening - April 6, 2010
Whelmed
pmc47 - April 6, 2010
much agreed, Snell held his own well only allowing 1 run.
Can’t complain with that much.
mariseanerhawk - April 6, 2010
Where was the patience tonight?
Was Braden that deceptive? There were way too many swings on balls out of the strike zone. Since we don’t have a lot of power we’ve got to wait for the pitches that can be hit for something.
TrustBaseball - April 6, 2010
he must have been, 10k's hurt us bad... i mean i expect K's from Bradley and Byrnes but he had everyone fooled.
mariseanerhawk - April 6, 2010
I suppose you're right about the pitching. He was better than I've ever seen him.
Please capitalize where appropriate. They’re going to get mad at you. Play by the rules.
TrustBaseball - April 6, 2010
Bradley has swung-and-missed a lot so far
but I get the sense that when he makes contact with the ball, it’s gonna fly with Angry Man Power.
Two Rs and Two Ls - April 6, 2010
Are we talking about the same Bradley?
I’m pretty sure the Milton Bradley the M’s picked up is not a power guy… I see angry man pop up in the infield…Where’s Mike Sweeney?? We got 3 DH’s, so why not bat the one who showed off the most in spring training?
mariseanerhawk - April 6, 2010
In this lineup, Bradley's a power guy.
Teej - April 6, 2010
Eh, Mike Sweeney hasn't been a good hitter for a long time.
BrianL - April 6, 2010
Because Spring Training doesn't mean a whole lot.
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
To elaborate
Funky ballparks, funky weather, and substandard competition make spring training stats somewhat meaningless.
BrianL - April 6, 2010
Along with players trying new things, working out the rust and no need to win.
CapSea - April 6, 2010
Also a good point.
A hitter might run into a pitcher that’s working on a certain pitch or hitting a location and that’s their primary focus.
BrianL - April 6, 2010
This is about the 3rd time I've been late right on your heels.
Kermit. - April 6, 2010
Hang in there, champ!
BrianL - April 6, 2010
Fewer words would be a good start.
Kermit. - April 6, 2010
Pitcher try pitch. See.
CapSea - April 6, 2010
Work good Kimosabe!
Kermit. - April 6, 2010
Kind of neat they put in pitch f/x in a couple parks down there.
I’ve always wondered if they ever tell a pitcher to throw 20% changeups or something, and forget the results. Kind of cool to be able to get a better look at what they’re doing.
Kermit. - April 6, 2010
Granted...but when Bradley has proven in 2 straight games he has no patience...maybe Mike deserves a shot...
mariseanerhawk - April 6, 2010
Um, sample size.
Brian Floyd - April 6, 2010
Two games.
Bradley is one of the more patient hitters in baseball.
Teej - April 6, 2010
2 games is not that many games
OlSalty - April 6, 2010
Two games is a pretty small window to play with.
Over the last few seasons Bradley has shown he’s a significantly better hitter than Sweeney.
BrianL - April 6, 2010
Also bear in mind that two games is an extremely small sample size to judge a player in.
Bradley will hit, just give him a chance.
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
Why so many devils advocates here??? Milton has potential....But so does Mike, I'm just saying, we're carrying 3 DH's use them.
mariseanerhawk - April 6, 2010
Mike Sweeney is old and hasn't been good in several years.
CapSea - April 6, 2010
Mike has potential to be a replacement level bat, maybe.
Bradley has the potential to be above league average.
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
I think based on a larger set of data most of us prefer Bradley getting at bats over Sweeney.
When was Sweeney’s last legitimately good season? 2005?
BrianL - April 6, 2010
"Devil's advocate" implies that we don't believe what we're saying
but rather that we’re saying it only for the sake or argument. I can’t speak for anyone else but I actually believe that Bradley is a better hitter than Sweeney.
Aaron Campeau - April 6, 2010
Satan's Co-Pilot, maybe?
ErictheRed - April 6, 2010
I'm with you. Bradley > Sweeney
TrustBaseball - April 6, 2010
The thing is, even last year when Bradley had a down year, he was still an above average bat
Before that, he was much much better. Mike Sweeney hasn’t really been an above average bat since 2005.
OlSalty - April 6, 2010
But what about the chemistry, intangibles....
aussie_chop - April 6, 2010
I carry my corporate credit card everywhere I go just in case of emergency
I have it, so why not use it more?!
seattlebruin - April 6, 2010
Think about this:
That’s only two games of data right there—hardly enough on which to base predictions.
RunningFool - April 6, 2010
See Bradley's previous 3 seasons then...
mariseanerhawk - April 6, 2010
They're pretty good actually.
Sweeney’s, on the other hand, aren’t.
BrianL - April 6, 2010
You mean like the one where he lead the AL in OBP?
Aaron Campeau - April 6, 2010
led*
Sorry, this misspelling gets me every time.
RunningFool - April 6, 2010
It's a typo.
And not to be a jerk but it’s generally only called for to correct errors such as these when they’re a pattern.
Aaron Campeau - April 6, 2010
Okay, sorry/thanks.
RunningFool - April 6, 2010
No prob!
Aaron Campeau - April 6, 2010
Previous three seasons BB%: 12.7, 15.7, 14.0
League average in those three seasons: 8.5, 8.7, 8.9
pmc47 - April 6, 2010
Bradley hit .293/.407/.495 over the past three years.
Teej - April 6, 2010
He ran an above average wOBA last year
In 2008 he was at .423 and 2007 was at .405. I’ll take those years.
Brian Floyd - April 6, 2010
He had two walks yesterday
stupidquestions - April 6, 2010
I understand I made the TV tonight?
Two Rs and Two Ls - April 6, 2010
You are correct sir.
Coming back from, I believe, the 3rd inning, they showed you for about 20 seconds.
seattle_since_81 - April 6, 2010
Which sign made it on air?
Two Rs and Two Ls - April 7, 2010
Where were you?
I was there tonight too!!
mwalter - April 7, 2010
Behind home plate, slightly on the third base side, about 27 rows up.
Two Rs and Two Ls - April 7, 2010
Yup!
It was the “A Great Day Deserves a Great Hat” sign that made it on TV.
Phil Hatzenbuehler - April 7, 2010
Even though we lost
I’m just glad there’s actually something to fucking talk about.
Mariner John - April 6, 2010
Rec'd for truth.
RubioNubio - April 6, 2010
I hate fucking Kurt Suzuki
And I swear to fucking god, it’s like three out of every five times I go to a game in Oakland they win with a walk off.
Not like “Celebration” was ever a good song, but I’m sure Kool & The Gang make a killing off the royalties.
OceanBird - April 6, 2010
There are a lot of things one could do with this comment
Jeff Sullivan - April 6, 2010
Like perhaps fuck it
Teej - April 6, 2010
Uncapped?
ErictheRed - April 6, 2010
So who's going to be the first one to do it?
Hopefulmsfan - April 6, 2010
Nevermind.
Hopefulmsfan - April 6, 2010
Who do you enjoy fucking, then?
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
An angry Milton Bradley
So much passion.
OceanBird - April 6, 2010
So don't do it.
TrustBaseball - April 6, 2010
I don't mind fucking him,
but he always gets too damn cuddly and emotional afterwards.
Terminator X - April 7, 2010
It makes me uncomfortable.
Terminator X - April 7, 2010
Wow, you get really girly after, huh?
Leopold Bloom - April 7, 2010
If not wanting to cuddle with a man after having gay sex with him means I'm girly, then yes, I'm girly.
But really, I don’t think it means I’m girly. I think it just means I have to be alone with my shame.
Terminator X - April 7, 2010
No, no, no:
It’s a line from Arrested Development.
I fully support your shame-ridden groping against the cold, hard night after engaging in love, Greek-style. Whatever gets you off, man. Gotta get in where you fit in.
Leopold Bloom - April 7, 2010
On the plus side, Mark Lowe's slider is filthy.
SethGrandpa - April 6, 2010
Agreed. I could have watched more of that.
TrustBaseball - April 6, 2010
Hmmm.
Haven’t heard any enthusiasm for RRS yet.
ErictheRed - April 6, 2010
GO HYPHEN
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
That's the spirit!
ErictheRed - April 6, 2010
hyphen!
sorta
ErictheRed - April 7, 2010
- !
CapSea - April 6, 2010
We sure did our best
Dewey N - April 6, 2010
And our best was not good enough
Jeff Sullivan - April 6, 2010
I think we were just unlucky
Dewey N - April 6, 2010
The moral is to never try.
Robert - April 7, 2010
Does that mean Coach is taking us out for post game ice cream?
BrianL - April 6, 2010
Take us down to the rock quarry maybe
and hide the evidence.
ErictheRed - April 6, 2010
Will we get ice cream after that?
BrianL - April 6, 2010
Sure, sport.
ErictheRed - April 6, 2010
Jeff's premonition coming true?
Meaning the 3rd year in a row we lose the 2nd game by a walkoff.
Hopefulmsfan - April 6, 2010
Ugh, there was supposed to be a link to the faux-future season he wrote a week ago.
Hopefulmsfan - April 6, 2010
Gotta put some words right before the ending tag in the coding
Otherwise your link has to text to click on. I learned that the hard way a few minutes ago.
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
*no text
Jackle Mackle - April 6, 2010
And Kurt Suzuki was supposed to win it with a walkoff homer right?
Close enough
OceanBird - April 6, 2010
Here you go guy:
If It Goes Wrong
RunningFool - April 6, 2010
Thanks.
Sadly not the first time I’ve been taught this. New season, time to relearn it all again.
Hopefulmsfan - April 6, 2010
It's called "Preview."
SethGrandpa - April 6, 2010
You bastards ruined it and now without the Good Ending to accompany it we are doomed us to a miserable season.
Robert - April 7, 2010
I know you guys are licking your wounds, at least hoping that Snell's got it this year.
I’m sorry, but tonight was not testament to that. Our lineup is pathetic, but you guys already knew that. Suzuki may have hit the only home run you’ll see from us this series.
My question is: was Dallas Braden’s performance as impressive as it seemed? He looked focused and dealing. Your lineup looks…pretty formidable, actually. And Braden really seemed to breeze through it, no offense.
I’m not here to rub it in—that is not what I’m doing here at all—I’m just trying to gain some perspective that’s not completely homer-ish. Plus…I kinda like LL, when, you know, you’re not hating on the A’s.
Leopold Bloom - April 7, 2010
Dallas Braden definitely had the M's hitters fooled
primarily with pitches down and away. I’d have to check the stats but he got a lot of swinging strikes going down and away to hitters tonight. Didn’t look that lethal but they had no read on him at all (or on the relievers for that matter)
mwalter - April 7, 2010
He's a wily one.
Ol’ Eight Toes.
By the way, I know you guys aren’t in the market to fall in love with A’s players, but if there’s one to fall in love with, it’s Braden.
Leopold Bloom - April 7, 2010
I'm rather fond of Kurt Suzuki, myself.
But Daric Barton is infinitely infuriating. The guy swings at NOTHING.
Phil Hatzenbuehler - April 7, 2010
We call him Staplehead, you know.
Leopold Bloom - April 7, 2010
Greetings!
From what I saw, it was a combination of Braden pitching decently and us just having zero patience, which is strange, coming off a night where we took eight walks.
Jackle Mackle - April 7, 2010
From all accounts,
it was a miserable night in Oakland Monday night—cold and kind of damp, I’m sure. I know King Felix has better control than that (Sheets, we’ll see)—they both appeared to struggle with command last night. I’m guessing that beyond opening night jitters, weather was a factor.
Leopold Bloom - April 7, 2010
Tim Tschida (home plate ump) probably had
something to do with the pitchers appearing to be struggling with command. His strike zone was laughably small.
RunningFool - April 7, 2010
Yeah, he and all of them had an off night last night.
I think we can all agree on that.
Leopold Bloom - April 7, 2010
Oh, definitely.
Hopefully we get a Sheets v. Felix matchup later in the year where they’re both on top of their game. And what RunningFool said.
Jackle Mackle - April 7, 2010
It was pretty great
Honestly, that’s not a bad lineup against a lefty. He threw 66% strikes and his changeup especially was incredible. He was driving hitters into 0-2 counts constantly.
OlSalty - April 7, 2010
Change was unhittable
Granted, he was facing a fairly low-contact lineup outside of Ichiro/Figgins/Loafie, but bleh. A good LH changeup can make a joke out of a lefty-mashing team sometimes.
Graham MacAree - April 7, 2010
Kotchman and Chavez... long lost twins?
srm07 - April 7, 2010
They have the exact same nose
Jackle Mackle - April 7, 2010
I'm looking, but I'm not really seeing it.
But if Chavez grew his mustache out a bit and narrowed his goatee…
Decatur - April 7, 2010
All white people look the same anyway.
Jed MC - April 7, 2010
My God, it's taken me over an hour of intense reading to catch up on tonight's comments.
LL posters are gonna start dropping dead from exhaustion soon if things don’t ease up.
Decatur - April 7, 2010
It's like this every year during the first week or so.
Like Robert said earlier, game threads start to hit their stride around Juneish and they start to slow down a little bit towards the end of April.
Goose - April 7, 2010
THEY FUCKING BETTER
Jeff Sullivan - April 7, 2010
So I missed the middle part of this game, and judging from the Eric Byrnes comments, it's a good thing.
Also, the gamethread kinda sucked. Be better newbie commenters(except the ones that didn’t suck, good job).
Goose - April 7, 2010
Considering game 2 of 2009 nearly killed me, I am pleased that I missed out on game 2 of 2010.
6am walk offs are not pretty…
EnglishMariner - April 7, 2010
Braden's changeup is moyer-esque
Didn’t he throw a screwball ala Norm Charleton, i cant imagine that being good for a pitchers arm long term
MagicMike23 - April 7, 2010
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