Lookout Landing

I guess I figure that even if it's a regular occurence, I fundamentally disagree with it, sleeping problem or not.

I’d let it slide a bit if he was hitting, but I still wouldn’t like it. Even if everyone is saying it’s not a big deal…I just don’t like it. I’d have been upset about hearing it last year. I’m not asking players to stand on the top step cheering…but they should at least be available to their teammates whether it be in the clubhouse, dugout, etc.

I know, it’s probably stupid of me to think this way…it just seems like the wrong way to go about being a teammate.

BrettJMiller - May 10, 2010 reply

It's not a desirable attribute, but when it's Griffey, you live with it

Not when it's 2010 Griffey.

lailaihei - May 10, 2010 reply

Even if his Hall of Fame career is built on that napping regularity?

Uh, that’s ridiculous, man.

His Hall of Fame career was built on hitting home runs.

Which he no longer does. Ever.

Uh, no duh.

Never said he did. Simply said that he’s been napping his whole career. If that got him to the Hall of Fame, so be it. The fact he’s a bad hitter now is, uh, obvious. Taking a nap has no effect.

Well you said his career was built on napping regularly, so my point clearly needed to be made.

No, implied that napping helped him hit the home runs you and I both know got him to the Hall of Fame.

If taking gave him the necessary rest he needed to produce at a Hall of Fame level, then yeah, his career is built in part because of it. He’s been taking pre-game and off-day naps for years. You think he should have been forced to stay awake? How well would he have performed on no sleep?

Nobody has been talking about pre-game and off-day naps.

Your argument seems to essentially be that in-game napping helped him produce at a HoF level, and that he would not have performed at that level without in-game napping. Is that your argument?

That's certainly what Shannon Drayer is arguing.

.

That’s arguably what Shannon Drayer is arguing.

Double06 - May 10, 2010 reply

However, I do know what you mean.

Double06 - May 10, 2010 reply

That's the implication of what she's saying, for sure.

What I’m gleaning from her post is that he’s always had this issue, and that he’s been doing it all along. And she sites Piniella through Ichiro. 1994-present.

She said that he has done it, not that it has contributed to his success.

She’s not saying that it helped him, hurt him, or made no difference.

I have little difficulty believing Griffey napped during games from time to time in the 1990s, but I do have difficulty believing that it helped him perform at a higher level. I mean, I’m sure there was lots of other stuff Griffey did in the 1990s that didn’t contribute to his success, like driving a GMC Syclone or wearing a little mustache. Neither of those things caused his success.

By the way, who says he's been napping regularly his whole career?

I don’t see anyone on the record with Drayer. “Many a player” telling her about anecdotal occurrences of him napping and then hitting pinch hit homers just isn’t credible in my book. I’m not saying she’s lying, but what I’m saying is that this is hardly convincing evidence that this is just business as normal.

Jeff Nusser - May 10, 2010 reply

I don't see anyone on the record with Larue.

Two “young players”, one who “knows Junior better.” Sure.

I find that more credible than "many a player" and a grossly overgeneralized statement

Jeff Nusser - May 10, 2010 reply

She sourced Lou Piniella and Ichiro.

She cited Piniella and Ichiro both.

That’s a long period of time.

She sourced Piniella on that particular thing - sort of.

Ichiro is talking about something different. Go back and read it again.

Jeff Nusser - May 10, 2010 reply

That's what Drayer said.

The fact of the matter is that aside from his home in Florida the clubhouse is the most comfortable place for Junior to be. He and others have told me that it is one of the only places he can sleep. What they saw Saturday was nothing they haven’t seen before. The stories are legendary and they span his career. Many a player have told me of Junior waking up from a catnap, grabbing his bat, heading straight to the plate and hitting a homerun. Lou Piniella has told stories of this.

Would he have needed those naps if he took care of his body?

More than two decades of swilling soda is not wise for a professional athlete. When Griffey was younger there was a clubhouse attendant whose son became rather friendly with our crew out in right field. He mentioned numerous times how veteran players were equal parts appalled and amazed that Griffey was as good as he was while treating his body like shit.

In part I felt sorry for Griffey watching his body fall apart on him while he was in Cincinnati, but I was not one bit surprised. The man could have been the best player ever but instead he wasted his talents by being a lazy fuck.

You're assuming the cause of his sleeping disorder.

If you're an IV drug user and you get hep c you can't blame people for assuming you got it from sharing needles.

Aaron Campeau - May 10, 2010 reply

Cute, but not an apt metaphor.

Did Griffey harm his performance and longevity by failing to properly condition his body in his youth? Most likely. Would taking care of his body properly allow him to sleep better? I doubt it for a variety of reasons, such as the neurological/psychological demands of sleep that aren’t expressly somatic, or the fact that he’s been doing it since years with Lou, during his peak.

Sleeping is not just for your muscles and tendons.

Uh oh.

Apparently I have been doing it wrong.

You know they offer medical help for sleep disorders.

I would bet even money Griffey was never treated for one.

Who says it's a disorder necessarily?

It kind of reads like “he’s only truly comfortable” in these two places. It doesn’t say anything about him truly lacking or being unable to sleep elsewhere.

If it isn't a disorder then why all the apologists?

G.R.I.F.F.E.Y.

If he sleeps fine at home and in the clubhouse, it's not a sleeping disorder, it's a psychological disorder.

diderot - May 10, 2010 reply

Having had treatment for a sleeping disorder...

it depends on the specific disorder, and then there’s an issue of whether treatment actually takes (which it sometimes doesn’t).

Also, being tested isn't the most comfortable things in the world.

If he has trouble sleeping anywhere but home, testing him would be quite difficult seeing how they have to hook you up to various wires and make you sleep in a strange bed.

beastwarking - May 10, 2010 reply

I've always questioned that myself.

How are they supposed to know how you sleep when nothing about sleeping during the test is normal? When my step-dad had one, they even told him not to drink coffee or soda that day. Soo…. how do they get an acccurate reason for your sleep issues?

It is more a matter of finding what causes the sleep to be interrupted.

Normalcy is not required to find that.

But if chugging a gallon of coffee right before bed is causing you to have problems sleeping,

how will they find that if they don’t allow you to do that before they test you?

That's a pretty stupid question

Stop drinking coffee and night and then see if you sleep better. No test required for that.

appleshampoo - May 10, 2010 reply

But many people won't make that connection on their own.

I just realized about a year ago that I can’t drink pop after about 7:30 or I’ll be up all night. Before that I could slam 20 Mountain Dews and still sleep like a baby.

That's true, but...

if your doctor doesn’t say, “hey doofus, lay off the late night caffeine” before sending you in for sleep tests, then your doctor has a serious mental deficiency. People might not make that connection, but your doctor definitely should.

jwiscarson - May 11, 2010 reply

I don't know if I would call it wasting talent

but if he was basically the Josh Hamilton of junkfood imagine what he could have done with some semblance of a healthy diet and habits.

It's really not though

it’s built on his prodigious offense, which was last seen in about 1998.

No kidding.

But if he was napping 1989 to 1998, then it stands to reason that this part of his routine either contributed physically or mentally to his success.

There's absolutely no way to prove that the napping helped him physically or mentally.

I know there are studies that show this, but you can’t build an argument that he would have had a worse career if he didn’t nap.

seattle_since_81 - May 10, 2010 reply

... nap during games.

1. I don’t think anybody would begrudge the guy napping during his own time.
2. I’m not sure why napping during games would make him better, unless he achieves some kind of inhuman focus that is only possible within the first ten minutes of waking.

He has been napping during games for years.

He has been bad for, at the very least, the past four years.

Yes.

Your point being? I mean, in regards to the napping.

My point is that just because this is not unusual does not mean it is helpful.

It doesn't mean it's a hindrance, either.

Griffey naps; this is normal. He napped when he was great, he naps now that he’s bad, and he’ll probably nap after he retires. Do we need to take any more than that from LaRue and Drayer?

Thing is, he used to have the talent to get away with it.

Again, you're suggesting that it's a negative thing, a hindrance.

We have no reason to think this is bad or good. Merely that he does it. What if—for a pure thought experiment—napping does indeed help Griffey’s performance? He’s bad now not because of the naps, but because he’s old and broken down? What does “getting away with it” mean in this context? What if napping is actually helping him pots a wOBA over .250 instead of being completely useless?

There are far too many assumptions going into everyone’s analysis. Now that we know this has long been part of Griffey’s habit, we need to scale it back.

I'm not saying the napping has any effect on his performance, just that it comes across as unprofessional.

And back in the day he had enough talent that no-one cared.

Also a .250 wOBA from your supposed DH is completely useless.

Let us say, hypothetically, that Griffey has a legitimate sleeping disorder.

Brandon Morrow has diabetes. I don’t know if he uses a pump or monitors his insulin levels and gets injections or whatever during the game, but I’m sure it’s treated. Ryan Rowland-Smith (and Brandon League) has (have) bad eyesight. They wear corrective lenses on the field. A player with asthma may or may not utilize an inhaler—probably not, since albuterol is a technically steroid.

My point is to say that if Griffey is treating in some form or another a legitimate medical condition, it’s no different than these other scenarios. But no one thinks Hyphen is unprofessional because he’s wearing specs. It’s a stigma because it’s sleeping. But that only holds divorced from the disorder.

Does Griffey suck? Yes. Does Griffey need to retire? Yes. Do we have any reason to think any of this relates to sleeping? Given his career, the regularity, the longevity and all other factors, I’m going with no.

I’m open to the idea I could be wrong, I just don’t see any reason to condemn Junior for this after Drayer’s post.

However it works, and however he's "always done it",

I still think it’s unprofessional. I don’t care if you’re sleeping, playing cards, paying bills or what… When the game is going you should be ready to play.

You're being irrational about it.

Nothing in the past suggests Junior sleeping has been prohibitive to his playing capability. If we trust that “many players” have told Shannon of him stepping to the plate after a catnap to hit a dinger, and Piniella telling the same, then he is ready to play.

I'm not saying it hindered or helped him.

I’m saying that either way I still think it’s unprofessional. If I wear filthy clothes to work, I can still do my job just as well, but it’s still not the professional way to do it.

If he had a sleeping disorder I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it by now.

This was a legitimate superstar, after all.

People have asked below:

“would this story get published if we were winning?”

Would this story have ever appeared without the slump?

yes

winning or not, if the team needed Junior to do the only thing he is capable of and instead he was in the clubhouse napping, it would be a story. If he were contributing to the team winning, it wouldn’t be a story. He’s not, therefore it’s a major story and a major indictment of his future. Slump or no slump, he can’t do his job if he’s sleeping in the clubhouse. There’s never been a point in his career where he could do his job while napping in the clubhouse. By rule, if you’re napping, you can’t play the field… and he’s played the field up until the last two years where he’s been very ineffective. So, at no point did these naps help him… and I question they ever existed until now when we’re trying to save his legacy from getting some taint on it.

jameslcrockett - May 10, 2010 reply

I would agree with this - we have no way of knowing what impact this would have on Griffey's performance, if any.

I think the more balanced criticism of Griffey is that if he’s not contributing at the plate, the only conceivable defense of his presence on the team is that he’s adding value with leadership and chemistry. This would at least seem to cast some doubt on his contributions in that area.

But really, all of this is empty argument anyway – whether naps have helped or hurt Griffey’s career doesn’t really matter that much. What matters is what is likely to happen as a result of this story, if fans turn on Griffey, or if this causes management disgust with Griffey. I thought the most interesting bit of LaRue’s post was that some sort of split between the Mariners and Griffey was imminent. I’d like to hear more about why LaRue thinks that’s coming, whether that’s something he’s hearing or something he’s assuming.

Naps aren't giving him bat speed, that's for sure.

I'm out because I have to admit this year just makes me really dislike the guy.

I feel like it is 1999 all over again.

It worked!

Yes, but this doesn't prove that this napping has helped him have a great career.

I don’t see how you can correlate the two.

seattle_since_81 - May 10, 2010 reply

You cannot suggest a causal link, but one could easily observe correlation.

I could construe statistics that show a correlation between the length of carrots and the average weight of a Japanese newborn.

Yep. Which reminds me - I need to become a pirate to combat global warming.

Correlation at its best.

SCIENCE!!!!!!

Now we need to figure out the connection and stop it!

Global Warming causing melting of ice caps, causing more ocean to cover, causing more pirates!!

SCIENCE RULES THE DAY!

seattlesundevil - May 10, 2010 reply

See, these things are cyclical.

The pirates will return and global warming will reverse!

Which does not mean that he would have had a worse career if he didn't nap during games.

True.

I find it funny that the debate here is now "napping: is it a PED?"

rather than “falling asleep at work: Acceptable or not?”

To clarify - the argument I'm referring to is whether napping during games contributed to Griffey's physical or mental success.

I don’t think there’s any reason to think that it does.

Wade Boggs would have sucked

if it hadn’t been for all that Chicken.

It was the beer, actually

I thought it was the porn star 'stache

Fairly decent porn name, too.

I think it would have been a problem last year because he still wasn't very good last year.

I think the point of Drayer’s post was that the sleeping is not new. The not hitting is.

moyerLIVES - May 10, 2010 reply

It's funny that you posted this at almost the exact same moment that Larry Stone put up a post in which he is over-reacting.

Although Stone has been covering the team long enough that it seems like he should know about this napping thing if it was as common as Drayer is saying.

moyerLIVES - May 10, 2010 reply

I think Larry Stone wrote a very measured post.

Yeah. You're right.

I ripped this post out after looking at the headline.

moyerLIVES - May 10, 2010 reply

Even with this I still think most of the fanbase will overreact

Mariner John - May 10, 2010 reply

Tar and Feather! Tar and Feather!

Rabble Rabble!

Does it strike anyone else as weird that LaRue would make a comment so strong about Griffey's future

when he plays on a notoriously tight-lipped team?

Two Rs and Two Ls - May 10, 2010 reply

Well Carlos Silva did call him a shit stirrer.

That was LaRue and not Baker?

I admit I don’t read either of them that much, but Baker seemed to fit the shit-stirrer role more.

Two Rs and Two Ls - May 10, 2010 reply

It was LaRue that Silva went after in the clubhouse.

Sounds like I'd been at least slightly misinformed!

Looks like I’m going to have to throw someone up against a wall.

Two Rs and Two Ls - May 10, 2010 reply

LaRue's got the scoop again!

Mariner John - May 10, 2010 reply

"If you win 20 in the Show you can let the fungus grow back on your shower shoes and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win twenty in the Show, however, it means you're a slob."

If Griffey was hitting like he was in 1994 and the team was winning like it was 2001 everyone would be making a joke out of this. But Griffey is done and nearly everyone, the team, the media and most of the fans are looking for a reason to send Griffey on his way.

mark sobba - May 10, 2010 reply

I'm not really sure if your Bull Durham quote applies to this situation.

But, nicely done anyways.

sanford_and_son - May 10, 2010 reply

It's a bit of a reach, but I get where he's going with it.

When you’re good, you can be weird or do strange stuff (like nap mid-game). When you suck those things become an issue.

Kind of like if you have an ugly batting stance but it works, no big deal. But you better not be weird and bad.

My point exactly.

mark sobba - May 10, 2010 reply

I believe this might be the first time the phrase "important to not overreact" and the concept of "the internet" have been mentioned together

your optimism is touching.

The napping thing is a non-issue to me.

I was hoping all of the hullabaloo was over the fact that with Bradley/Bedard set to return, Langerhans/Saunders presumably continuing to play well and the DH situation bein untenable…that Z and company were ready to call it a day on Griffey.

Omerta - May 10, 2010 reply

I'm still hoping this is all an elaborate hoax in order to sour people on Griffey enough

that they can just release him for…must…not…call…it….napgate…thing and take an intense 48 hr PR hit instead of releasing him for “no reason” and hearing about it the rest of the season.

I think the important thing about this story isn't whether it's significant that Griffey was napping.

The important thing about it is that it’s a reason to end the Mariners/Griffey relationship that even the casual fan can understand and get passionate about. Up until now it’s been the sabremetric crowd that has been most loudly arguing that Griffey is done and that his presence is hurting the team. This is the hook that the broader fan community can seize on.

I think the rational approach to Griffey being done is far more compelling, but it’ll be interesting to see if the Mariners are now able to make the right move prompted by (at least publicly) the wrong reason.

If he drinks twelve sodas a day no wonder he can't sleep at night.

He can still go fuck himself raw with cactus.

Aaron Campeau - May 10, 2010 reply

Tell us how you really feel.

thebyron - May 10, 2010 reply

As the resident expert on this, I can see where he is coming from right now.

It will get bettter for him in a couple of weeks. All we need to do is wait!

Robert - May 10, 2010 reply

Drayer's post should really be titled "LEAVE GRIFFEY ALONE!!!!!"

sanford_and_son - May 10, 2010 reply

Don't care about his napping...

as long as it gets management to make a right move on the field and 25-man roster though, I’m happy.

Kenny Knows Sports - May 10, 2010 reply

Doesn't change the fact that he should be gone.

I think this whole episode is just further proof that chemistry comes with winning, not vice versa.

If the Mariners were in first place, does this story even get published? Does LaRue even find out? No. While these players might respect Griffey, there still has to be some frustration in the clubhouse for them to even share this story.

Amen.

diderot - May 10, 2010 reply

Bleh, I hate these threads =(.

CapSea - May 10, 2010 reply

If there's one thing I've learned it's that naps make things better

=(

CapSea - May 10, 2010 reply

I took one this afternoon and bypassed this shitstorm.

But you woke up to find you were still in New York.

Surrounded by Yankees fans.

Oh.... GOD

I was actually chatting with a Mets fan today…

This can't be going to a good place.

the other side - May 10, 2010 reply

This guy is cool though.

We talked about how Felix hit a grand slam off of Johan Santana and he said he respected that.

Did you tell him Carlos Beltran needs to rot in fucking hell?

Brian Floyd - May 10, 2010 reply

And I thought we were supposed to be the nice ones....

the other side - May 10, 2010 reply

I wasn't thinking about it at the time.

That's usually the immediate thought I have after thinking about the grand slam

Brian Floyd - May 10, 2010 reply

I think for that game, I saw the grand slam and then had to go to work.

You got luckier than most of us.

Brian Floyd - May 10, 2010 reply

Want to talk about volcanoes?

Sportscenter

Just mentioned that they will discuss this after the current commerical break.

-Tag - May 10, 2010 reply

I expect it will be highly insightful, as always.

And will have fantastic background music and will be What's Now

Sports Screamers!

This is all irrelevant to the fact that he is a sad excuse for a player

What have we told you guys about straying off topic

I like to eat ham salad while driving through McCall Idaho listening to the sweet sounds of Hawk Harrelson

Corco - May 10, 2010 reply

Is anyone else

More upset that he supposedly could not be found by the manager for a potential pinch-hit during the game? The fact that he was napping is secondary to the fact that he was not available.

m_b - May 10, 2010 reply

Players are back in the clubhouse all the time.

He wasn’t hard to find. And Drayer’s post suggests that he is available despite the napping. Wak just didn’t use him.

It's on the propaganda site (with no new information) now, for whatever that's worth

Corco - May 10, 2010 reply

I think this says more about the mood of the team than anything else

If they were winning and things were otherwise hunky-dory, Griff’s unnamed young teammates would be less inclined to throw his old ass under the bus.

lemonverbena - May 10, 2010 reply

The teammate must have walked into the clubhouse, seen Griffey sleeping, and thought.

I was stuck in Tacoma til now for this?

Hopefulmsfan - May 10, 2010 reply

I think his ass would give the bus a flat tire

I should add that Junior is barely older than me, chronologically

But his ass is considerably older.

lemonverbena - May 10, 2010 reply

I'd be interested to hear from Jay or Edgar about this.

They’d know what he did back in his heyday.

Well Buhner's on TV ever other game so you might hear soon enough.

And KJR has decided there is an Oliver Stoneish back-story where someone (coughWakcough) may have started the story rolling to get rid of Griffey.

msb - May 10, 2010 reply

That sounds credible

Can Wak start a rumor to get rid of Sweeney and Sean White?

And Robo Rob?

Rob Johnson is a cylon!

Man I feel stupid just saying that.

But you get recs for a bad BSG reference.

Only on reddit.

w00tah - May 10, 2010 reply

That's either incredibly brilliant or incredibly idiotic

I can’t make up my mind

Corco - May 10, 2010 reply

Jeff should throw up a poll.

I would bet the results line up pretty closely with the Wak popularity poll. Those who hate will go with idiotic, those who love will call it brilliant.

And now they are going down the roster trying to decide what players.

msb - May 10, 2010 reply

I thought off days were supposed to be comedy days on LL?

Robert - May 10, 2010 reply

I find this hilarious.

You missed some hidden subthreads.

Aw :/

royalcurve - May 10, 2010 reply

Okie Dokie

ThundaPC - May 10, 2010 reply

Why isn't this green yet??

Dereliction of duty

I don’t care if he’s napping before the game. It was the ninth inning. The team was mired in a 7 game losing streak. The score was tied, and we all knew Johnson was going to strike out. Griffey was asleep. He was unable to perform because he was literally asleep. THere’s absolutely no excuse.

mikethomas22 - May 10, 2010 reply

If he was figuratively asleep, it would have been cool.

The whole team sans Guti and Ichiro have been figuratively asleep all season.

Your concerns have been addressed, and they are overstated.

He has slept during games in the past only to be awakened for his AB. Wake him up if you want him in there. It’s apparently normal.

If other players do it that's one thing.

If it’s just him, it’s annoying.

Aaron Campeau - May 10, 2010 reply

And exactly how many times...

…did Jr pinch hit between 1989 and 1998?

Not exactly a regular occurrence.

Best hidden narcolepsy problem ever!

Except he catnapped even when he wasn't benched. Come in off the field, catch a Z, step up to the plate.

It’s in Drayer’s post.

Catnapped and played?

Really, she makes a bunch of vague assertions, none of it backed up by anything concrete. Even if it is/was true, the implication is still that he was READY TO PLAY WHEN NEEDED.

Not so much anymore, apparently.

I can’t believe so many people are falling for the BS.

I wouldn't exactly call LaRue's piece well sourced.

He gives two unnamed sources, and none of it takes context into account.

I think that Drayer is probably trying to counter the anti-Griffey sentiment, which is fine.

But she doesn’t give us any reason to believe this isn’t a problem.

“It happens all the time” isn’t an excuse, especially in the context of Griffey’s performance this season to date.

Jeff Nye - May 10, 2010 reply

And I basically like Drayer

…but she is to investigative journalism what Mike Sweeney is to baseball these days.

Fluffy bunny stories? She’s all over it.

That doesn't really seem fair

There’s a difference between what she does and Bob Finnigan.

She wrote her opinion on the subject and backed it with her reasons for feeling that way

It wasn’t investigative journalism, it was an explanation of context.

MT Olson - May 11, 2010 reply

Sweeney is old and not very good at baseball.

How do you compare that to shannon?

the other side - May 11, 2010 reply

Thanks for deeming my concerns addressed.

I appreciate the dismissal. Seriously though, who was supposed to wake him up. A coach? A player? Hey buddy, go wake up Junior, we want him to do his job. No, you have to be awake for the game.

mikethomas22 - May 10, 2010 reply

Don't worry

You don’t have to bite on the line they’re feeding you.