Once again, vote based on your own personal opinion, using whatever criteria you like.
...and that'll wrap things up! Sorry, Michael Saunders.
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Comments
Had to Like instead of Love
As someone in the FO made the decision to keep Griffey and Sweeney on the team this year. And Colome on the team. And Sean White on the roster. And have a 7 man bullpen…
The FO employers Wak, so if he's in control that's the FO responsibility.
Similarly, it is the FO’s choice to give Wak’s opinions that much credence. Either way, the FO gets some credit for Wak’s influence, whether it is the employment of Wakamatsu or their allowance of these bad decisions. Similarly, the belief that all of these moves are due to Wakamatsu is equally as speculative.
For example: My boss gives me the power to handle and assign the employees under me however I wish. So if I say I want the blind guy driving the truck, and the deaf guy answering phones, I can do that. And she trusts me to make these decisions based on my track record as a supervisor (manager). However, if three months down the road it isn’t working, she can (and would) take charge and make the necessary changes.
But what I’m saying is that she trusts me, and the FO trusts Wak. So if he says "I want Sweeney and Junior), they’ll give him enough rope to either swing or choke.
But it’s their choice to trust Wakamatsu, so they get some blame for these poor decisions and I can’t love them. Also, again, it us LL that is under the assumption that Wak is in control of these decisions. We don’t know that yet either. It’s likely, but it’s not necessarily fact. To go back to your analogy, your manager allows you to make the hiring decisions. If an executive from the main office comes to visit your store, and sees that the store has employed a bunch of retarded monkey Angel fans, the blame is going to go to your manager for allowing you to make those hiring decisions.
but it doesn’t have to be blind faith. If Wak is making poor choices about who’s on the roster, Jack can and should ask why. If Wak says “I really want to keep Sweeney on the roster,” Jack deserves to know why. And if that reason sucks, then Jack can say no. A boss shouldn’t overrule his subordinates willy-nilly, but he can and should enforce his will when necessary. Jack is in charge of this team.
The stuff they need to improve upon can be learned from experience much more easily than the stuff they’re doing right. A different FO is far less likely to be as fabulous at the fundamentals of player evaluation / acquisition. If they don’t learn from this year’s mistakes…that will drop the FO down to “like.”
Because they know how to find bargains in the market,
Because they know how to work out trades that benefit the team,
Because they are building the team for the future, such that once they get good they will stay good.
Because they committed to long term deals with the right players (Felix/Guti), and have avoided committing money long term to players that would likely end up being a mistake. They have flexibility in later years when we expect to contend, without lots of money committed to older veterans in long term deals. We are not hamstrung for the future by long deals to players still getting paid for their late decline years.
But some of the bad decisions about the roster are so out of line with all of the good decisions that have been made previously- it’s really hard for me to place too much of the blame on Z and Co and I end up assuming that it’s on Wak.
I still have a lot of faith in the front office, both in terms of solving problems in the short term, and for our future.
Their record isn’t perfect, but I wouldn’t trade them for another front office outside of maybe Boston or Tampa Bay.
Plus, unlike when you hire some retread GM or a loyal team player like a Lee Pelekoudas, there’s a sense of pride in being the first team to really exploit the talents of a group of people like Zduriencik, Blengino, etc. It’s not like we were fighting three other teams for Z’s services and we just outbid everyone. He was the dark horse and he won, and he then showed immediately why he was the right choice.
It’s similar to the feeling of rooting for a homegrown prospect over a free agent your team went out and purchased, if that makes any sense. He’s ours, dammit.
This front office has done some amazing things certainly. Gutierrez, Aardsma (do a degree), creating a culture where Felix felt comfortable signing an extension, getting rid of Yuni, Branyan and then Not Branyan, Cliff Lee, creating a surplus of pitching at the back-end of the rotation, generally being quick to respond to situations, Milton, of course.
From my own angle, I would also complement them on the training programs, the emphasis on establishing a Mariners way of doing things within organization, and making some player development decisions that have paid off. I was not initially impressed with the addition of Nick Franklin to the group on draft day, but I have to say I’m really excited about him right now. So there’s all that. Jury is still out on Baron.
I don’t want to be too demanding, to come to the table with a “what have you done for me lately” mindset in light of recent struggles, because they likely do have more information than I do. Perhaps Shawn Kelley was struggling in some mechanical way that warranted demotion. Perhaps Hannahan quite simply isn’t ready, certainly not to play the middle infield, what with his first appearance at second coming last night.
But there are things that they do where I find myself wanting. The Mariners knew that they were coming into a season with pitching and defense being their strongest suits. In this case, I’m a little bit baffled as to why they didn’t put a greater effort into getting one more bat. I realize that this may be difficult, given that Sweeney/Griffey are without defensive positions, but that was a position that they put themselves in. Perhaps there was something we could have done other than pick up Byrnes, though it seemed like a good idea at the time. Perhaps there was another option out there for catcher that was not so similar to what we already had, though I certainly prefer Moore.
I don’t know that I’m making any headway with this particular argument, or even approaching a point. As I emphasized before, there’s a lot we don’t know about what goes into decision-making. My only problem is that, recognizing that we were operating on a fairly thin margin, they did not make decisions that could have pushed us over the top, and seemed feasible at the time. They did a lot to turn around the organization, that cannot be understated in any way, but I wonder if while looking at the big picture and trying to put things in a greater context, they lose sight of certain little things. There are worse ways to screw up though, and I’m certainly a victim of the same myself.
Did not like the signing of Josh Fields when they could have bolstered the system with another Top 25 pick. Did not like the selection of Steve Baron with a high pick.
I’m more love than like, but those couple of issues bug me, particularly the whole Sweeney/Griffey thing
My mom's from the area, so I've adopted them as my soccer team.
I’ve used their logo as my avatar for pretty much every site that I use (it’s the background for my Twitter, for instance). I’m also currently wearing an Eintracht Frankfurt shirt my aunt sent me a couple of years ago. Ricardo Clark is god, for being an American on my favorite team. I’m going to have my aunt buy me a jersey before she comes over this summer.
I'm a college student and a journalist. I feel your pain. This is two days worth of lunch money I'll exchange for the opportunity to vote on polls for you and Matthew.
Game days are premium days because they have to watch the game and analyze what’s happening and tell you what to think about it, whereas offdays are premium days because they have to come up with some new and clever way of analyzing the team or amusing the rest of us while the team isn’t playing.
I LOVE the talent acquisition. I HATE the roster management. Whether or not the horrible roster choices are Wak’s doing, the FO still has to take responsibility for them. Wak works for Jack, Wak answers to Jack, therefore Jack is responsible for Wak’s choices. And if Wak isn’t the one inepting up the roster, then there is no excuse for how long Sweeney has been on the team.
Overall, my feelings are neutral. Maybe Jack Z would be better suited for an Assistant GM position, where he doesn’t have to take responsibility for who’s on the 25-man roster.
Had to Like instead of Love
As someone in the FO made the decision to keep Griffey and Sweeney on the team this year. And Colome on the team. And Sean White on the roster. And have a 7 man bullpen…
CMC_Stags - May 7, 2010
My thoughts exactly
They’re great at player acquisition but they seem to struggle with player implementation
Corco - May 7, 2010
In other words they're good at getting lots of cool stuff but seem to have no idea what to do with it once it's there
Corco - May 7, 2010
They have an idea, they could just potentially be doing a better job than they are
DrunkAmerican - May 7, 2010
But isn't player implementation Wak's job?
The front office does their job well, but Wak hasn’t been able to implement the players that the FO is getting well.
seattle_since_81 - May 7, 2010
Langerhans down, Sweeney on the team, etc.
These are still front office moves.
CapSea - May 7, 2010
But if your manager says "I really want THESE guys",
then what do you do? You have to have faith in the people in your employ.
Thingray - May 7, 2010
At least until they give a reason not to.
Thingray - May 7, 2010
The people under your employ, ergo, front office.
CapSea - May 7, 2010
The front office is employed by the front office?
I wouldn’t consider Wak a part of this poll since he had his own poll.
seattle_since_81 - May 7, 2010
The FO employers Wak, so if he's in control that's the FO responsibility.
Similarly, it is the FO’s choice to give Wak’s opinions that much credence. Either way, the FO gets some credit for Wak’s influence, whether it is the employment of Wakamatsu or their allowance of these bad decisions. Similarly, the belief that all of these moves are due to Wakamatsu is equally as speculative.
CapSea - May 7, 2010
Makes sense now.
Thank you for the explanation.
seattle_since_81 - May 7, 2010
Perhaps I didn't put that the right way.
For example: My boss gives me the power to handle and assign the employees under me however I wish. So if I say I want the blind guy driving the truck, and the deaf guy answering phones, I can do that. And she trusts me to make these decisions based on my track record as a supervisor (manager). However, if three months down the road it isn’t working, she can (and would) take charge and make the necessary changes.
Thingray - May 7, 2010
So she (the GM) trusts me (the manager) to make the choice.
That’s why she has me as the manager. But she retains veto power IF it becomes necessary.
Thingray - May 7, 2010
She trusts you to make the decisions, so if you make poor decisions, she bears some of the responsibility.
CapSea - May 7, 2010
True.
But what I’m saying is that she trusts me, and the FO trusts Wak. So if he says "I want Sweeney and Junior), they’ll give him enough rope to either swing or choke.
Thingray - May 7, 2010
I don't blame them for trusting Wakamatsu.;
But it’s their choice to trust Wakamatsu, so they get some blame for these poor decisions and I can’t love them. Also, again, it us LL that is under the assumption that Wak is in control of these decisions. We don’t know that yet either. It’s likely, but it’s not necessarily fact. To go back to your analogy, your manager allows you to make the hiring decisions. If an executive from the main office comes to visit your store, and sees that the store has employed a bunch of retarded monkey Angel fans, the blame is going to go to your manager for allowing you to make those hiring decisions.
CapSea - May 7, 2010
My spelling, punctuation, and word choice has been abysmal of late.
CapSea - May 7, 2010
But your point is valid.
Thingray - May 7, 2010
You do need have faith your employees,
but it doesn’t have to be blind faith. If Wak is making poor choices about who’s on the roster, Jack can and should ask why. If Wak says “I really want to keep Sweeney on the roster,” Jack deserves to know why. And if that reason sucks, then Jack can say no. A boss shouldn’t overrule his subordinates willy-nilly, but he can and should enforce his will when necessary. Jack is in charge of this team.
Sukafish - May 8, 2010
I completely agree.
Ballard Erik - May 7, 2010
Love because oh god Bavasi.
Eyeball Kid - May 7, 2010
Love. Because of who they’ve gotten us and how they’re handling Milton. Two different skill sets.
Zobmie - May 7, 2010
Please use a subject line, but welcome to LL.
I had to only say “like” because I am still getting frustrated over the lack of no-brainer moves.
CapSea - May 7, 2010
It's a very good point
But, as a Mariners fan, I can’t help but compare them to previous regimes, and immediately the vote goes from like to love.
cwel87 - May 7, 2010
I have now and will always be exceedingly cautious and/or pessimistic about most everyone.
CapSea - May 7, 2010
Love
The stuff they need to improve upon can be learned from experience much more easily than the stuff they’re doing right. A different FO is far less likely to be as fabulous at the fundamentals of player evaluation / acquisition. If they don’t learn from this year’s mistakes…that will drop the FO down to “like.”
short - May 7, 2010
LOVE becuase they know how to evaluate talent,
Because they know how to find bargains in the market,
Because they know how to work out trades that benefit the team,
Because they are building the team for the future, such that once they get good they will stay good.
Because they committed to long term deals with the right players (Felix/Guti), and have avoided committing money long term to players that would likely end up being a mistake. They have flexibility in later years when we expect to contend, without lots of money committed to older veterans in long term deals. We are not hamstrung for the future by long deals to players still getting paid for their late decline years.
ARock - May 7, 2010
Maybe this belongs in the Wak thread
But some of the bad decisions about the roster are so out of line with all of the good decisions that have been made previously- it’s really hard for me to place too much of the blame on Z and Co and I end up assuming that it’s on Wak.
I still have a lot of faith in the front office, both in terms of solving problems in the short term, and for our future.
Dids - May 7, 2010
They still get the love vote.
Their record isn’t perfect, but I wouldn’t trade them for another front office outside of maybe Boston or Tampa Bay.
Plus, unlike when you hire some retread GM or a loyal team player like a Lee Pelekoudas, there’s a sense of pride in being the first team to really exploit the talents of a group of people like Zduriencik, Blengino, etc. It’s not like we were fighting three other teams for Z’s services and we just outbid everyone. He was the dark horse and he won, and he then showed immediately why he was the right choice.
It’s similar to the feeling of rooting for a homegrown prospect over a free agent your team went out and purchased, if that makes any sense. He’s ours, dammit.
Teej - May 7, 2010
Well said.
I was sitting here trying to figure out why it’s “love” for me instead of “like”, but that about sums it up.
Thingray - May 7, 2010
"Like", after a tough call.
This front office has done some amazing things certainly. Gutierrez, Aardsma (do a degree), creating a culture where Felix felt comfortable signing an extension, getting rid of Yuni, Branyan and then Not Branyan, Cliff Lee, creating a surplus of pitching at the back-end of the rotation, generally being quick to respond to situations, Milton, of course.
From my own angle, I would also complement them on the training programs, the emphasis on establishing a Mariners way of doing things within organization, and making some player development decisions that have paid off. I was not initially impressed with the addition of Nick Franklin to the group on draft day, but I have to say I’m really excited about him right now. So there’s all that. Jury is still out on Baron.
I don’t want to be too demanding, to come to the table with a “what have you done for me lately” mindset in light of recent struggles, because they likely do have more information than I do. Perhaps Shawn Kelley was struggling in some mechanical way that warranted demotion. Perhaps Hannahan quite simply isn’t ready, certainly not to play the middle infield, what with his first appearance at second coming last night.
But there are things that they do where I find myself wanting. The Mariners knew that they were coming into a season with pitching and defense being their strongest suits. In this case, I’m a little bit baffled as to why they didn’t put a greater effort into getting one more bat. I realize that this may be difficult, given that Sweeney/Griffey are without defensive positions, but that was a position that they put themselves in. Perhaps there was something we could have done other than pick up Byrnes, though it seemed like a good idea at the time. Perhaps there was another option out there for catcher that was not so similar to what we already had, though I certainly prefer Moore.
I don’t know that I’m making any headway with this particular argument, or even approaching a point. As I emphasized before, there’s a lot we don’t know about what goes into decision-making. My only problem is that, recognizing that we were operating on a fairly thin margin, they did not make decisions that could have pushed us over the top, and seemed feasible at the time. They did a lot to turn around the organization, that cannot be understated in any way, but I wonder if while looking at the big picture and trying to put things in a greater context, they lose sight of certain little things. There are worse ways to screw up though, and I’m certainly a victim of the same myself.
JY - May 7, 2010
Structural problems!
*Aardsma (to a degree)
*though I certainly prefer Moore to Rob Johnson
JY - May 7, 2010
Had to go with "Like"
Love the trades made and the vision.
Do not like the moves aimed at “chemistry”.
Did not like the signing of Josh Fields when they could have bolstered the system with another Top 25 pick. Did not like the selection of Steve Baron with a high pick.
I’m more love than like, but those couple of issues bug me, particularly the whole Sweeney/Griffey thing
Rudy4three - May 7, 2010
When do we get to evaluate Jeff and Matthew?
Also, I feel like a sheeple for seemingly not differing with the trends of LL fans in general for most players.
thehemogoblin - May 7, 2010
That's a great idea!
We need mod polls!
Thingray - May 7, 2010
Going ot here but where is your avatar from?
You are not happening to be an Eintracht Frankfurt fan do you? http://www.eintracht.de/
Schuxu - May 7, 2010
Well ok, you are :)
Schuxu - May 7, 2010
My mom's from the area, so I've adopted them as my soccer team.
I’ve used their logo as my avatar for pretty much every site that I use (it’s the background for my Twitter, for instance). I’m also currently wearing an Eintracht Frankfurt shirt my aunt sent me a couple of years ago. Ricardo Clark is god, for being an American on my favorite team. I’m going to have my aunt buy me a jersey before she comes over this summer.
thehemogoblin - May 7, 2010
When you pay between $7-250 to come watch us work on the site for three hours
Matthew - May 7, 2010
I will pay $7 to watch you work on the site for three hours just to make this happen.
thehemogoblin - May 7, 2010
Deal, screenshotted
Jeff Sullivan - May 7, 2010
If I get distracted by a lot of other tabs it could be more like 3.5 hours
Tabs are my pickoff moves
Jeff Sullivan - May 7, 2010
I'll think of it as extra innings.
Free baseball (commentary)!
thehemogoblin - May 7, 2010
I don't actually talk out loud when I'm writing
Jeff Sullivan - May 7, 2010
You are in for one lousy show
Jeff Sullivan - May 7, 2010
Believe Big!
Jeff Sullivan - May 7, 2010
Can't be worse than Seattle's offense right now.
thehemogoblin - May 7, 2010
I do. It makes it so much more fun.
I suppose, I could just watch your screen instead.
thehemogoblin - May 7, 2010
I am so poor :(
Jeff Sullivan - May 7, 2010
I'm a college student and a journalist. I feel your pain. This is two days worth of lunch money I'll exchange for the opportunity to vote on polls for you and Matthew.
thehemogoblin - May 7, 2010
You have to pay in advance. It costs more at the door.
Oh and premium days are also more expensive.
Matthew - May 7, 2010
When are the premium days?
This is going to happen.
thehemogoblin - May 7, 2010
Any day containing the letter Y in its name
pdb - May 7, 2010
Quit giving them ideas. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeease.
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease. I implore you.
thehemogoblin - May 7, 2010
I'm reasonably sure that what you wish to happen will not in fact happen
pdb - May 7, 2010
I want to firmly place the blame on them first. I'm going through all avenues here. I have nothing to lose.
thehemogoblin - May 7, 2010
Well, I could get banned, but this would be rather pedantic for that.
thehemogoblin - May 7, 2010
There's also the loss of dignity that comes from trying too hard
pdb - May 7, 2010
I have no dignity. None at all.
thehemogoblin - May 7, 2010
Paypal me $7 and I will stream live webcam footage of my laptop
Jeff Sullivan - May 7, 2010
while you sit at HUB drinking $7 worth of delicious beer
pdb - May 7, 2010
Well, you see...
Game days are premium days because they have to watch the game and analyze what’s happening and tell you what to think about it, whereas offdays are premium days because they have to come up with some new and clever way of analyzing the team or amusing the rest of us while the team isn’t playing.
JY - May 7, 2010
I have conflicting opinions.
I LOVE the talent acquisition. I HATE the roster management. Whether or not the horrible roster choices are Wak’s doing, the FO still has to take responsibility for them. Wak works for Jack, Wak answers to Jack, therefore Jack is responsible for Wak’s choices. And if Wak isn’t the one inepting up the roster, then there is no excuse for how long Sweeney has been on the team.
Overall, my feelings are neutral. Maybe Jack Z would be better suited for an Assistant GM position, where he doesn’t have to take responsibility for who’s on the 25-man roster.
Sukafish - May 8, 2010
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