Lookout Landing

I hate the upper mangement of this team so much.

They’re so incompetent yet they may fire the smartest GM in team history? Come on.

Coach Owens - September 13, 2010 reply

This season is now worse than 2008

I didn’t think that was possible

The best part is where there's still time for it to get worse

Is there anybody who did not yet believe “there is no floor” left?

"I told you about the floor bro!"

Someone was going to do it.

I could launch into all sorts of possibilities of how things could be worse, but I really don’t want to.

No reason to

Just give it time. They’ll happen anyway.

Walking spanish is the only acceptable form of transportation.

Eyebrows - September 13, 2010 via mobile reply

I don't know how many people are going to get this but for my part I hope it goes green.

Azchristopher - September 13, 2010 reply

So fucking rec'd

Eyeball Kid - September 13, 2010 reply

Man, am I ready

to put this season in the rear-view mirror.

quacker27 - September 13, 2010 reply

I wonder if the Mets will let us interview Wayne Krivsky

Poochie - September 13, 2010 reply

There goes the idea the FO doesn't listen to the media.

Way to show that letter means anything. Obviously the FO cares about what the media says.

Obviously?

You don’t know what happened.

Matthew - September 13, 2010 reply

Find, bad word to use.

But if anyone gets fired over the media making this a big deal, then this season sucks even more.

Azchristopher - September 13, 2010 reply

The media aren't the ones who made this a big deal

they’re simply the ones who reported it. The owners and their reps are the ones who made this a big deal — though it appears Zduriencik let them get blindsided on it because he was afraid they’d block it if he told them ahead of time (which, clearly, they would have). Had Lincoln et al. come out and supported Z, told the press they were giving Lueke a second chance but would be watching him like a hawk, put a couple things in place so that the public could see they were working to ensure that Lueke straightens up and flies right from here on out — then it would have been fine, and they could have ripped Z a new one in private. Unfortunately, it appears that self-righteousness, self-superiority and wounded pride carried the day, with possibly disastrous results for the organization.

But despite all that

Why not simply trade Lueke back to the Rangers and be done with the whole thing?

Milendriel - September 13, 2010 reply

Daniels left that option open and apparently we're still not doing it.

Because he would've fleeced us.

Basically yes.

That isn't what this is about anymore

New England Fan - September 14, 2010 reply

This course of action was the only way the M's could have looked okay

If Kobe Bryant (rape) and Ray Lewis (accessory to murder) can be viewed as great guys and team leaders, a little spin could probably have saved this situation. I’m convinced both those guys got off only because of their wealth and prior reputations.

If this scenario were played as “he made a mistake, but he’s contrite, and we will not let it happen again.” It could have worked. Just another example of an error on the part of the M’s

Re: the M's, I agree

As far as Kobe goes, there was a lot there that the national media didn’t see/get . . . he’s a creep and a louse, but on the evidence, he’s not a rapist.

The Ancient Mariner - September 16, 2010 reply

If Jack gets fired I really won't care too much

They had pretty good GM candidates last time around and Z’s sorta a dick

Sucks for Carmen Fusco though

Including one that handed over Dan Haren to the Angels for nothing.

Bring back Pat Gillick!

Seriously though, is anybody going to even want to be GM for the Mariners after this mess? I’m pretty sure I’d say “I’ll wait for another opportunity” if I were already a high ranking baseball executive

I think getting GM experience is pretty high up on the priority list of baseball executives who are not yet GMs

Let's ask Fogel.

Keep in mind that this is the time of year when scouting contracts get renewed throughout the industry, and Fusco’s area, pro scouting, hasn’t exactly covered itself with glory this year, exclusive of the Lueke situation.

What I'm worried about is they will abandon some of the steps forward they took as far as baseball philosophy goes because of how this turned out

OlSalty - September 13, 2010 reply

A further thought from Larry Stone

msb - September 13, 2010 reply

Z needs to survive this year.

And then we need to play better next year so he survives until our young talent is ready in 2012.

ARock - September 13, 2010 reply

Quick question:

whenever someone in the media mentions that it’s a “warning shot” for Jack Z, does that likely mean…

“Z, this better not happen again”
“Z, you’re next on the list”

…or is it something else entirely?

Aaroniero Arruruerie - September 13, 2010 reply

The first

A warning shot/shot across the bow, originally, was a shot fired by a warship that was pursuing a smaller warship or a merchant ship — it was a shot fired intentionally to miss, with the message being, “Heave to [i.e., stop running] and let us board, or the next one won’t miss.” The message to Zduriencik is roughly the same: don’t screw up like this again, or the next boot hits you in the stern sheets.

On the plus side, I still have an expected 60 or 65 years left in my Mariners fandom.

30 years into my fandom I'm not sure that's a "plus side"

Me neither.

This comment from anyone else isn't nearly as good.

Kermit. - September 13, 2010 reply

He could have at least made it rime

Bravo.

I would of recced every post of yours for a month if you had changed this to

“He could have at least maiden rime”

Goose - September 14, 2010 reply

Churchill made a couple good points about the Front Office and Lueke:

8. By: Jason A. Churchill on 09-13-2010 14:05:34
The only way Zduriencik is let go is if the ownership changes hands very, very early this winter — highly, highly unlikely — and they have a plan in place to bring in someone else specific.

In other words, Jack isn’t going anywhere, nor should he.

I hope he’s right.

10. By: Jason A. Churchill on 09-13-2010 14:47:43
I’m actually done talking about Lueke’s situation. He made a mistake, maybe a really, really bad one — we don’t know for sure how bad, but we know at the very least he lied to the police — but it’s over with.

If we knew for fact, or it was clear anyway, that he sexually assaulted or raped a girl, it would be different. I wouldn’t want that player on my team.

But what we do know for sure is that he lied to the cops, was 19 and everyone involved, including the victim, was drunk when it all went down.

I do believe in second chances, however, and am fine with a “short leash” scenario for Lueke.

He’s apparently doing and saying all the right things now, and that matters a lot.

There isn’t any more for me to add, I wasn’t there.

As for his abilities — he’s good, and belongs in the prospect rankings on the cusp of the top 10 with Cortes, who has a higher ceiling but comes with more risk due to the control issues.

That’s as good a quick take on the issue as I have seen.

Except...

15. By: Jason A. Churchill on 09-13-2010 15:45:07
…Not two minutes after I posted above that Jack was safe unless the ownership changed I got word that the M’s are trying to delay the D-backs’ candidates from interviewing with Arizona because they might want to interview them, too.

Oh fuck why is this happening

This season blows

MT Olson - September 13, 2010 reply

This season has gone way past catastrofuck.

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Goose - September 13, 2010 reply

Kevin Towers come on down!

Goose - September 13, 2010 reply

Oh jesus please no

lemonverbena - September 14, 2010 reply

Yay for panic mode.

Aaroniero Arruruerie - September 13, 2010 reply

.

I imagine Kevin Towers would quite like this job

JEFF SULLIVAN FOR GM

DEWEY N FOR REPLACEMENT HEAD OF LL

ROBERT FOR DEWEY N

I think Matthew and Graham are tops on that list.

perfectstrat - September 14, 2010 reply

LOL!

Dewey N - September 14, 2010 reply

What does the N stand for?

Poochie - September 14, 2010 reply

Who knows

Dewey N - September 14, 2010 reply

Dewey N is the secret identity of Captain N.

JY - September 14, 2010 reply

Dammit Mariners.

Eyeball Kid - September 13, 2010 reply

I've never given up on the M's in 33 years but if they fire Jack before the end of year 5, I'll be tempted.

When I Google Jack Z, it took me to a Jerry Brewer article that referenced a poll where 47 % percent wanted jack gone. Seriously? Didn’t we give that poopstain Bavasi 5 years? Remarkable.

wazzu93 - September 13, 2010 reply

I think I remember listening to Brock and Salk when that number came out, and Salk went on a tirade about how stupid anybody who was in that 47% was.

Scruffy Lefty - September 14, 2010 reply

I've never listened to Salk, but whenever anyone talks about him, he seems like a really smart guy.

joof - September 13, 2010 reply

From the little of his show I've listened to, I'd put him in the top 1 percent of sports radio hosts

xero3k - September 14, 2010 reply

All hypberole aside, he's a smart guy, yes

xero3k - September 14, 2010 reply

Ditto

I’m a very long time full season ticket holder who drops about $8000 on the team a year and if they fire Jack Z at the end of the season, I’m done supporting them financially until the two big boys above him are gone.

TIFO - September 13, 2010 reply

My patience is also wearing thin in reference to keeping my tickets.

But it is unfair for me to completely lay that at the feet of team ownership. Part of it is that I found a hobby in recent years that is cheaper, more fun, isn’t a passive involvement on my part, the beer is better and on occasion I even win money.

The other part is that I am really stretching my finances to even continue doing this anymore. I recently took a second job and a big reason is to help pay for my Mariner and Sounders season tickets. If the entertainment value isn’t there I would be stupid to continue throwing thousands of dollars at it every year.

Sec 108 - September 14, 2010 reply

But you can say its your reason!

Whelp, time to blow shit up.

joof - September 13, 2010 reply

Oh balls

OlSalty - September 13, 2010 reply

Is there any way of contacting Lincoln and Armstrong?

.

lemonverbena - September 14, 2010 reply

I'm calling bulls--t on the whole "we didn't know" thing.

As soon as I heard about Lueke and Smoak being part of the trade, I started doing some google searching. I had not idea who Lueke was, and all I knew about Smoak is that he seemed to be good.

And I IMMEDIATELY HIT THIS ARTICLE: Bakersfield NOW. It was on the very first page of his google search. Dated in June. And I’m not getting paid. All I did was type in a search and click some links.

And the whole front office is saying that they didn’t know anything about his past, or the charges. Have they not gotten the internet to the whole stadium yet?

Seriously, guys, just come clean. You aren’t morons. If you were, you’d be Bill Bavasi. You knew what you were doing, and no one should be buying any bit of the line about not knowing.

Henry Valz - September 13, 2010 reply

It seems a safe bet that Zduriencik thought Lueke was worth it and thought he could get away with it

He was right on the first one, but given how much the higher-ups care about their reputation and image in the community, he was wrong about the second one; to my mind, the only questions are a) just how much he’s going to end up paying for deceiving his bosses, and b) just how much damage this is going to do to the team (and for that matter, to his reputation in the game), and what exactly it will be. Let’s face it, Z clearly badly misjudged a number of people — the wrong people to misjudge, and in maybe the worst possible way. He hit them right in their sense of superiority, and very few people react well when you do that.

I don't believe he deceived his bosses, either.

I am fairly sure they have internet as well.

Even if he didn’t even mention his shady past, Z can’t really hide something written all over the world, easily available.

If they didn’t know about the whole thing before the trade went down they are either 1) not doing their jobs of overseeing the organization as a whole or 2) morons not capable of walking across Edgar Martinez Blvd, much less running a MLB franchise.

Unless Jack Z. actually lied or refused to tell his bosses the names of the people involved with the trade, this is on everyone’s head.

However, a thought just came to me, which is Jack Z. might be keeping a lot from Howard and Chuck. He is probably thinking “After the Junior debacle, I’m not telling those two clowns anything.” And I wouldn’t blame him. So maybe he did hide it from tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum, but I probably can’t blame him for that.

Henry Valz - September 13, 2010 reply

If only Google Instant had been rolled out a few months ago.

All of this could have been avoided.

SeattExPat - September 14, 2010 reply

Hitting enter is too much damned work for me.

JY - September 14, 2010 reply

Hm, my thought...

..is that he thought he could “get away with it” because he thought Leuke made a bad mistake, but a redeemable one, given the ambiguous situation. His superiors thought otherwise.

Armstrong and Lincoln will clean this place up!

Eyebrows - September 13, 2010 reply

Hm, but why would...

Zduriencik have to tell them prospect names BEFORE the trade? I thought the nature of trades is that it’s very fluid; and that trying to run approval of names ahead of time is tantamount to micromanagement.

I’m just getting the feeling Z felt it wasn’t as big a thing as A&L thought it was.

If the ownership is doing this to send Jack Z a "warning", this is just plain dumb.

Zduriencik is not 12 years old. He knows he screwed up, or someone else in the front office under his employ screwed up. How does firing Carmen Fusco make our team better? The idea that punishment needs to be brought down upon Zduriencik is simply juvenile. Threatening everyone’s job security won’t make them perform their jobs better.

Now, if the firing is indeed because they feel Carmen Fusco is no longer fit for the job, then that’s fine. I recall that Buster Olney made this comment a while back:

“Everything that has gone on this year has raised a lot of questions in both the scouting and player development departments,” Olney said Tuesday on 710 ESPN Seattle. “I have heard from people with other teams that it is pretty clear that people are looking to get out of the organization because they are concerned with the direction of the team.”

Not sure why the Mariners wouldn’t be willing to give some company line about the reason as to why Fusco was fired, though.

JLC - September 13, 2010 reply

Well....

….that jibes with what Churchill has hinted at. But it does make me wonder if it’s truly “the wrong way” or if it’s a different direction—-it’s not at all clear that the team had that much freedom to take a drastically different approach than what they did.

Who's to say Fusco was serving any positive purpose?

I think having worked with Zduriencik with both the Mets and Brewers, and having been employed as a pro scout for this long

It would give him more credibility than, say, a rock or a labrador retriever. But I get what you’re saying, and I don’t think we can automatically assume that Fusco is still qualified, or better qualified than his peers at his job anymore. If they fired Fusco for that reason, then there’s nothing wrong with that.

Still, as you noted, the timing of the firing is odd, and that Zduriencik declined to go into the reasoning of the firing is odder, still.

JLC - September 13, 2010 reply

I dare Armstrong to fire Z.

If it happens the last money that I give this organization while he is apart of it will be the 10 dollars that it costs to get into FanFest to publicly question his leadership skills.

I will finally follow my instincts and go become a Royals fan

They're due.

SeattExPat - September 14, 2010 reply

If the Royals turn into a winner before us I'll be sick.

I have enough friends who tell me “At least they aren’t as bad as the Royals” only to be pleasantly surprised when I point out how much worse the Mariners are this season. Getting a pity “Hey, there’s always next year” from multiple Royals fans isn’t something I thought I’d ever experience.

KC Mariner - September 14, 2010 reply

I dare Armstrong to go fuck himself.

I do not believe you

Angry Robert comes around once every two years or so.

The Mariners will have Felix

I should have said that I won't give the Mariners any money until Armstrong is gone.

I will still go to occasional games but I will not buy tickets through the box office. I will not buy refreshments or memorabilia at the game. It would be pretty easy.

Does Armstrong have a daughter?

I don't know if the appropriate answer here is "I hope so" or "I hope not."

katal - September 13, 2010 reply

At least one, Dorrie.

Dorrie is a mans name.

Really?

OK Dorrie is a fish's name.

I'll be there to bail you out of jail.

You've gone soft

This should be a suicide threat.

Here is a letter I am sending to the Mariners tomorrow.

To Whom It May Concern,
I am a lifelong Mariners fan. I watched Ken Griffey Jr. hit his eight homeruns in eight consecutive games in 1993. I was at the Kingdome for The Double. I supported Sweet Lou, went crazy when Carlos Guillen scored to beat the White Sox, celebrated 116 games, and have a heck of a lot of bobbleheads.
These days? I’m 27 years old, educated, married, and live in a suburb of Seattle. My wife and I make approximately a combined $90K a year. We will have a child before long. Some might say we are your target market. Keep that in mind when reading the next two paragraphs.
Do NOT fire Jack Zduriencik. Do not put him "on a short leash", "the hot seat" or take away his autonomy as general manager in any way. I’m happy he brought in Josh Lueke. After years of the club floating along in what can best be described as mediocrity, I’m thrilled he brought in a talented reliever. Talent wins ballgames, and wins are what makes fans happy, not players’ personalities. Do you think Baltimore Raven fans regret their Super Bowl because Ray Lewis probably murdered someone? No. The moment Lueke begins striking out Angels and Yankees will be the moment fans forget about whatever it is they think he did.
I adore Seattle sports. There is no end to how much money I would throw at memorabilia to celebrate a Seahawks or Mariners championship. That said there is an end to how much I am willing to financially support a team that has consistently disappointed me, both on and off the field. Please make the right moves this winter. Build a winning ballclub. Give Zduriencik the support he deserves.

Thank you,
Eric Behrens

katal - September 13, 2010 reply

Can you add my name to that email?

Kudos, although you're probably going to get a form reply.

Not if we get everyone on LL to send it!

They will wonder why the demographic is so very specific.

Angry white bloggers?

Damn straight.

Probably, but it's the best I can come up with.

I tried booing Chuck Armstrong when he gave a speech at WWU the other year, but I don’t think he heard me.

katal - September 13, 2010 reply

I did the same with Lincoln when he was giving a speech next to my office.

But they wouldn’t let me in.

After replying to this with a stock response, Lincoln will send email to employees entitled "Fandom Attacks!"

FloydWaterson - September 13, 2010 reply

I don't understand point three

I would not be surprised if point three is the correct interpretation: that upper management fired Carmen Fusco to send Z a message. But, if it is true, I don’t understand how that is an effective move to deal with the situation. If Z and company lied to Chuck Armstrong and Howard Lincoln, wouldn’t a better way to send a message be to tell Z never to do something like that again or he’ll be fired? Or, couldn’t they fine him? Isn’t the goal of Lincoln and Armstrong that Z succeed so the Mariners will be a consistently winning team? And, if that is the goal, how does firing someone whom Z is close to and whom Z values help in achieving that goal?

I can understand firing Fusco if he is not doing his job or if the behavior he exhibited in the Lueke business is repeating a pattern of past bad behavior. But firing someone to send a message to that person’s boss is infantile and counterproductive. If Fusco is a valuable part of a team that you hope will turn the Mariners around, how does firing that person help? If the Mariners upper management wants to get rid of Z, then do it. If they want Z to continue as general manager then let him do so with the management team he thinks will best accomplish their goals. If they want to punish him for how he handled the Lueke business, then find a logical way to do so. Sending a message this way is playground behavior. I also don’t see how it helps them in the public relations battle. Does firing Fusco really bring back into the fold people who are mad at the Mariners for trading for Lueke?

I suppose we’ll never know the full story but the Mariners are acting too much like over thinking weasley political operators. I rather they tried a little maturity, telling the truth and dealing with the situation logically.

If we're going with point #3

I don’t think it would just be about sending a message. These would be my assumptions:

(1) Armstrong wants to send a message that the FO has screwed up
(2) Armstrong identified Fusco as the most meaningful yet expendable member
(3) Armstrong wants to get a different voice in there to break up Z’s buddy circle

The message, I’d think, would be a big part of this, but it wouldn’t be the only part. Armstrong could also use this as an opportunity to start exerting some influence again after backing off for the better part of two years. In that way, this wouldn’t only be vindictive.

I know people are against Armstrong getting involved in baseball matters. I usually am, too. In this case, though, it seems like he was put in an awful tough position, and he had to do something. Take heart in the fact that he didn’t just fire Z.

Cutting through all the rumors and speculations for a bit.

I want to say that ownership has too much riding on Jack Zduriencik to simply fire him after this season. He is the guy Armstrong and Lincoln chose as GM two years ago in a pick that they “had to get right.” They spent a good part of the 2008 season compiling a list of GM candidates and went through an extensive process of picking the right person for the job.

I’d like to believe that ownership would like to keep Jack Zduriencik on board to continue developing the organization to the point where not only the team starts winning but that winning product can be sustained. But Armstrong also needed to address the breakdown in communication that pretty much left him with egg on his face as the front office brought in a guy that completely contradicts the cause in which Armstrong supports. Ergo, Carmen Fusco becomes the fall-guy and Armstrong now reduces the amount of autonomy that Zduriencik initially had.

I don’t really care if Armstrong ends up getting more involved. I thought he was going to be more involved to begin with but then wound up stepping so far out of the picture nobody hardly noticed him until the season turned into a mess. My concern lies in the idea that ownership is panicking over the way the season has turned out and how certain issues have been handled causing them to go in a “different direction” (ie. firing Zduriencik). A direction that sees them bringing in the type of people they’re more comfortable with rather than the people who are best for the job.

I dunno....

The message that comes out to me is that the core mission of the organization is not just baseball, but to be baseball AND something else. I’m not certain that’s a good thing toss execute at the baseball operations level.

And appearing to fire someone for undercutting the presidents ego doesn’t give a very good message either..internally or externally.

Instead of cleaning things up, I think this move makes things worse…much worse.

This isn't really about Armstrong's ego

Z made a move, and by the indications, he neglected to tell his boss about something pretty significant that put Armstrong in a very uncomfortable position.

Yes, but....

…the proper response, it seems to me, is discipline of a type other than to fire someone who, by appearances, was not responsible for the error of not telling the higher ups. It appears to me an overreaction for a step that’s better handled internally. Making a public action seems to me all about a matter of ego.

I'm not saying Armstrong made a great move or anything and I'm not sure this is what I would have done

I just think it’s worth understanding where he might be coming from. If Fusco was identified as a non-critical part, then the organization would have little to lose by letting him go, and quite a lot to learn.