A thread in the post about Randy Johnson and Dan Wilson entering the Mariners Hall of Fame piqued my interest. Is Randy Johnson the best pitcher the Mariners have ever employed? The question needs refinement because I read that and my first interpretation concerns the best pitcher while playing in a Mariners uniform while others read it as asking who the best pitcher is overall to have ever at some point played for the Mariners. I think Randy is unquestionably the answer to that latter path. He's probably one of the five best pitchers of all time. Felix Hernandez may someday reach that level, but it'll take a good long while. However, as to the first question — the best pitcher in a Mariner uniform — he's already giving Randy a serious run.
First, here is the pair's relevant (my opinion) raw pitching numbers from their times as a Mariner.
| Pitcher | BF | BF/GS | K% | BB% | HR/750 BF |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Randy Johnson | 7877 | 28.7 | 28.0 | 12.5 | 15.7 |
| Felix Hernandez | 5751 | 28.1 | 22.0 | 8.1 | 15.1 |
Randy might be remembered as more dominant and untouchable thanks to that extraordinary strikeout rate. Strikeouts are like dingers, but for pitchers in the way they stick out in people's collective memory. Meanwhile, home runs allowed are kind of like double plays hit into and walks are kind of like, well, walks.
I included the number of batters faced per start to show that despite the trend toward fewer innings pitched, the pair have actually been similarly workhorse-like so far. It's like Boxer and Boxer 2. Of course, raw numbers are a bad way to compare people, especially ones that played in different time periods. So first, I'll park adjust them using my StatCorner method and Retrosheet data.
| Pitcher | BF | K%* | BB%* | HR/750 BF* |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Randy Johnson | 7877 | 27.0 | 12.1 | 15.8 |
| Felix Hernandez | 5751 | 20.9 | 7.9 | 15.8 |
Both pitchers have their strikeout and walks rates fall and home run rates rise. Five-sixths of those changes probably will not cause a lot of surprise, but Randy's home run one might. The Kingdome is thought of as a home run-happy park and while that's mostly true, it's overblown and not always consistent, not unlike weather forecasts or anything ever relayed by Jon Heyman.
The park factors I have for 1989-98 show a home run factor of 109 for left-handed hitters in the Kingdome, but just 97 for right-handers. Why that split exists I don't know, but it's there and for his career, Randy faced right-handed hitters 88% of the time. Safeco may have been built to inflate Ken Griffey Jr's hitting numbers, but it also would have been the perfect park for Randy Johnson to pitch in. It's a good thing neither stayed around to truly find out!
With the numbers tweaked for the parks, it's time to plot them against the league averages over their respective Mariner careers.
| Pitcher | K%+ | BB%+ | HR/750 BF+ | Avg FIP | WAR/750BF |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Randy Johnson | 171 | 71 | 110 | 3.34 | 4.32 |
| Felix Hernandez | 118 | 115 | 120 | 3.38 | 4.27 |
This is perhaps the clearest picture of how strikeout dominant Johnson was, and this isn't even including his run with Arizona. Being 71% better than league average is eye-popping in the (luckily only) figurative sense. Unlike a fork, which can be eye-popping in the literal sense, but rarely is in the figurative. Randy's high walk rate, however, is also laid bare and the Big Unit's strikeout per walk ratio was in fact lower than King Felix's is so far. All told, if you want to compare the two's production, the FIP and WAR columns are probably your best bet and they show almost identical values. The two aces take slightly different roads, but end up in nearly the same place.
In case you wanted to look at some colors and/or were interested in what those league average rates were, here's a graph of them!
And if you're interested, here is the same graph plotted over the post-WWII era. What's up with you, 1987?
3 recs | 53 comments
My question: who's in the Mariners all time starting rotation?
diderot - January 17, 2012
Oh, there are so many ways to answer this question
Randy and Felix are 1 and 1A (in some order). I’d personally probably go Langston, Hanson, and either Moyer or Garcia.
Sportszilla - January 17, 2012
*Floyd Bannister>Erik Hanson
sofa_king - January 17, 2012 via mobile
Don't forget Cliff Lee
TIFO - January 17, 2012
I'm with sofa_king's position on Cliff Lee.
harkening - January 17, 2012
Off the top of my head
Randy
Felix
Langston
Moyer
Garcia
The back end I can take or leave, but I’d say the top 3 are secure.
Benne - January 17, 2012
Hm...
1) Randy Johnson
2) Felix Hernandez
3) Jaime Moyer
4) Freddy Garcia
5) Erik Bedard*
*This is not logical, but I love him so much.
harkening - January 17, 2012
Just got back from the future.
1. Felix
2. Johnson
3. Walker
4. Hultzen
5. Paxton/Langston
By the way: You’ll like 2913, but you’ll love 2014-2016 (see ‘72-’74 Oakland A’s)
sofa_king - January 18, 2012 via mobile
Johnson, Felix, Moyer, Garcia, Langston.
Alex Kelly - January 18, 2012
Hi RC, nice new nick ya got there.
ToddK - January 18, 2012
This is pretty clearly not RC
>
seattlebruin - January 18, 2012
Apparently bad attempt at a joke.
Sorry.
ToddK - January 18, 2012
Would be funnier if I were a newcomer and wasn't known like royalcurve.
But I will give it a pity rec.
harkening - January 18, 2012
(no, I'm saying that Bedard being #5 instead of #1 means it's definitely not RC)
seattlebruin - January 19, 2012
Ahhh. Gotcha.
WHOOSH!
ToddK - January 19, 2012
Going off how they good they were in their prime (or now, in the case of His Royal Highness)
Felix
Randy
Cliff Lee
Erik Bedard
Freddy Garcia
As a side note, career fWAR as a Mariner…
Felix 32.7
Randy 45.7
So if all goes well knocks on wood, Felix should pass him in late 2013 or early 2014.
WhyGodWhy - January 18, 2012
Not Carlos Silva
seattlebruin - January 18, 2012
Not a lot of people.
Way too many awful pitchers. Now I started thinking about them. Thanks a lot.
Paul AB - January 18, 2012
Randy, Felix, Moyer, Garcia, Cliff Lee
OK, that basically pretends that no good starting pitcher existed for the M’s before ‘95. But just practically speaking: Power lefty, power righty, maddening lefty, power righty, ah-this-isn’t-fucking-fair-lefty. It’d be fun.
My favorite quote about Jamie Moyer: “I don’t know how he does it. He could throw a shoe and get you out.” – Mike Scioscia
Chris_FB - January 17, 2012
fuckity hell, reply fail to diderot's post... sorry
Chris_FB - January 17, 2012
No way Cliff Lee counts.*In my opinion
*Need at least 50 starts or there abouts.
sofa_king - January 17, 2012 via mobile
Oh hell, let's count him--it makes it so much more impressive.
diderot - January 17, 2012
So Randy Johnson must be on the Astros top-five pitcher list too then.
sofa_king - January 18, 2012 via mobile
Needs more Bedard.
harkening - January 17, 2012
Randy was amazing as a Mariner, but he was double that as a Diamondback, as much as it hurts.
For 5 of his six full seasons, he posted WARs higher than 8.5. 8.5! That’s utterly ridiculous. After he left, he just decided to stop walking people so his K/BB ratio became insane.
perfectstrat - January 17, 2012
He also starting striking out everyone all the time.
Kirk - January 17, 2012 via mobile
I wonder if Randy's higher walk rate made him even scarier to face?
The thought that the 6’10" guy throwing a baseball 99 mph near my face, might sometimes be a little wild, would have to be absolutely terrifying as a hitter.
Easley - January 17, 2012
John Kruk says "Hi."
The Ancient Mariner - January 18, 2012
I went to a Mariners Red Sox game at Fenway in 1993.
Randy was pitching. In the first inning, he beaned Mike Greenwell in the head. Such a sickening sound. Greenwell stayed on the ground for several minutes. Thankfully he was OK. Scary.
Easley - January 18, 2012
Not to mention Dan Wilson.
msb - January 18, 2012
If Felix takes off like Randy did after age 25 then holy shit (I don't have words to describe what this would mean).
KC Mariner - January 17, 2012
It is so goddamn scary that Felix is still only 25
Also great write-up Matthew.
Aly Edge - January 17, 2012
Not only one Jesus on the team anymore
WhyGodWhy - January 18, 2012
1987 was so weird.
So very, very weird.
destroy my sweater - January 17, 2012
I'm struck by the apparently abrupt change in HR rate in the last graph
Was 1994 the official beginning of the steroid era or ???
JoDo - January 18, 2012
The ball juicing era yes.
Mariner John - January 18, 2012
Randy put up a 13.41 K/9 in 2001
and had 9.9 WAR at age 40. I had forgotten just how damn good he was
UW2010 - January 18, 2012
He also holds 7 of the top 10 qualifying K/9 seasons since 1954
UW2010 - January 18, 2012
Holy shit
BBRef single-season K/9 leaderboard, top 10:
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Kerry Wood
Randy Johnson
Randy Johnson
Randy Johnson
Randy Johnson
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Randy Johnson
Also, holy shit Kerry Wood. At age 21, he struck out 12.58 batters per 9 innings, 4.4 WAR in 166.2 innings. But injuries…and that is why TINSTAAPP. (Granted, Wood had a few good seasons after getting Tommy John and is an OK reliever now I guess, but my point is Pineda’s arm, or Hultzen’s arm, or Jered Weaver’s arm (please) could explode at any moment.)
WhyGodWhy - January 18, 2012
I can't wait for tomorrow's Rob Johnson vs. Dan Wilson post
micky D - January 18, 2012
Was Randy as good at getting grounders as Felix?
I’m not old enough to have seen him pitch for the Mariners and I know we don’t really have that data available, but anecdotally do people remember his GB/FB tendencies?
Dewey N - January 18, 2012
We have pretty good data actually
and no, he wasn’t.
Matthew - January 18, 2012
Huh I did not know that
Does this tip the scale in Felix’s favor? Is there a reason you didn’t bring this up in the post?
Dewey N - January 18, 2012
I used home runs instead since that matters more
Matthew - January 18, 2012
Fair enough
Dewey N - January 18, 2012
Have you given any thought to trying to do retro-tRA?
or is the batted ball data just not good enough from the pre-MLBAM era?
seattlebruin - January 18, 2012
Gave it tons of thought, but have better things to do with my time.
Matthew - January 18, 2012
Hang out w/ Rally Puppy?
seattlebruin - January 18, 2012
I was thinking nearly the same thing.
When debating who is/was better how do you account for Felix’s contact for weak ground outs?
InSpokane - January 18, 2012
Thanks for doing this. I eyeballed them the other day and figured RJ would have a little more of a lead but he did walk a ton of people.
This is exactly what I wanted but wouldn’t have been able to wrap up the comparison as well as you just did.
I thought the adjustment would be more in his favor too but like you said, I guess the Kingdome is an over hyped hitters park.
I love both of them but I think the intangibles of Randy were better than they are for Felix. Maybe its just because I was a kid when Randy Johnson was a pitcher for the Mariners but his gross sweaty mullet and limbs flying everywhere were a spectacle.
Edgar for Pres - January 18, 2012
How do they stack up R/9 adjusted for era?
That probably wouldn’t be fair to Johnson, unless you included ballpark factors. Felix has pitched in a better park for pitchers. Defense? Hard to say, but I’d guess there hasn’t been a difference worth considering.
nathaniel dawson - January 18, 2012
The fWAR comparison is Interesting too
Note that Randy’s first season as a Mariner was his age 25 year and that he only played a portion of the year with the Mariners. I excluded his Expos WAR (as well as his Astros WAR).
Randy / Felix
1.9 / 2.6
2.3 / 3.8
3.0 / 4.1
3.5 / 3.7
7.1 / 6.8
5.3 / 6.2
9.5 / 5.5
1.7 / NA
7.0 / NA
4.4 / NA
Jazon - January 18, 2012
Of course, Felix's first year was a partial year too
Jazon - January 18, 2012
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