There has been a lot of talk since the team acquired Jesus Montero as to what this means for the catching situation. The team believes that Montero can catch and plan on working with him in order to maximize his potential value to the team. The big question is what does this mean for the remaining catchers on the team. I decided to take a look at how the Minnesota Twins have dealt with this similar situation over the last few years to attempt to find the answer to the question:
Just how many catchers do the Mariners need on the 25 man roster?
Other than 2011, in which Mauer was hurt for an extensive period of time, the Twins have had to juggle an all star hitter in the demanding catcher position. So let’s look at how the Twins kept his bat in the lineup as often as they could while not overworking him as a catcher from 2008-2010.
2008
Mauer started 135 games as a catcher and only 4 as a DH (this was honestly shocking to me), his back up Mike Redmond started the remaining 28 games (this adds up to 163 because of a one game playoff verses the White Sox). The only other catcher used that season was Ryan Jorgenson, who didn’t start any games and only caught 3 innings.
2009
Mauer started 105 games at catcher and 28 as the DH. This season saw Redmond start 39 games and Jose Morales start 19 (Again a 163 game season due to a playoff game with the Tigers). Morales was never a very permanent addition to the roster, he started the season in AAA Rochester, was called up on May 15 and sent down 6 days later on the 21st then recalled again on June 13 this time lasting a little over a month, he was sent back down on July 15. His final recall was on August 29, just in time for September roster expansion. Morales’ first 6 day call up lines up with a time when Mauer and Redmond were both nursing injuries, however the June call up does not so it would seem the team decided they needed a third catcher on the roster for that time.
2010
Mauer started 107 games at catcher and 22 as the DH. Drew Butera took over as the primary backup, starting 44 games with Morales starting 4 games and Wilson Ramos starting 7. Again the Twins used primarily a two catcher roster configuration. Ramos was on the major league roster for 10 days between May 2 and 12. Mauer hurt his heel on the first and missed 6 games. Morales came up from AAA on July 26 and left on August 15, reappearing once more on September 1. Mauer was again nursing minor injuries in late July which explains Morales’ recall.
2009 and ‘10 seem like a realistic expectation for what the Mariners could be looking at for next season. It doesn’t seem that outlandish to expect 100 games out of a starter, 40 out of Montero and the remaining 22 to come from a third catcher. The third catcher however would need to qualify under one of two conditions, have an option left in order to shuttle back and forth as Morales did for the Twins or have the positional flexibility to play positions other than catcher. It is unrealistic to think the Mariners can carry a catching only player for the whole season and only expect him in 22 games so if this is the route I see 5 options in front of them.
1. Olivo is the starter, Montero backs him up, Jaso shuttles back and forth as needed
2. Olivo is the starter, Montero backs him up, Jaso stays in AAA, Chris Gimenez is a third catcher and backup corner outfielder
3. Jaso is the starter, Montero backs him up, Adam Moore shuttles back and forth as needed and Olivo is cut/traded
4. Jaso is the starter, Montero backs him up, Chris Gimenez is a third catcher and backup corner outfielder, Olivo is cut/traded
5. Olivo and Jaso form a catching platoon, Montero is the primary DH and only catches in emergencies
Unless the team really plans on easing Montero into catching and only having him behind the plate 20 or so times then option 5 doesn’t really work from a development standpoint as this way they are taking plate appearances that could go to Casper Wells or Mike Carp and giving them to Olivo.
Any scenario where Olivo, Jaso and Montero are all on the team for an extended period of time just doesn’t work without giving up an incredible amount of flexibility on the rest of the field. Personally I think option 4 works the best for this team, the Twins made it work without an emergency third catcher as often because for 100 something games there was a back up catcher on the bench. In the Mariners situation this would be flipped, if Jaso is starting then Montero is DHing. So for 100 something games there would be NO catcher on the bench. If Jaso needs a mid game replacement then Montero would have to switch positions and a new DH would have to come off the bench. This puts more pressure on Montero’s catching abilities. I guess what I’m saying is that Olivo is expendable since he isn’t here for the long term.
Plus, well, Olivo is bad and I don’t know why I wrote such a big piece in order to say “the team should ditch the bad player”.
4 recs | 25 comments
Once you bring the DH to play a position on the field you lose the DH for the remainder of the game.
I agree with you, by the way, option four is the most viable, because Olivio is bad.
sofa_king - January 19, 2012 via mobile
Wait... how do you lose the DH?
Say for example Jaso gets a late game hit. The team puts Figgins on base as a pinch runner. Figgins is now the catcher, cant the team swap the positions of Figgins and Montero and then sub in Wells for Figgins? They cant just lose a spot in the lineup and have an 8 person lineup
BaronVonBullshit - January 19, 2012 via Android app
When a player at DH is moved to the field, the DH gets forfeited and the pitcher then has to hit.
BrianL - January 19, 2012
Oh wow, I never knew that. How weird ... guess that probably makes a third catcher more important in the M's case
BaronVonBullshit - January 19, 2012 via Android app
And that third catcher needs to be able to play other positions so as not to limit bench flexibility.
So option 4, since Jaso is more interesting than Olivo.
WhyGodWhy - January 19, 2012
If it happens once a season, max, it's not worth carrying a player just for that flukey reason
If there are other reasons for carrying three catchers, fine, but that shouldn’t be the reason
Corco - January 20, 2012
It could happen once every 5 days and I think it would be an upgrade
d0nkey - January 23, 2012
I think there is an option that is clearly being overlooked.
Why is it not even a consideration for Montero to be the starting catcher? My choice would be option 6: Montero starts, Jaso is the back up, Olivo is traded for peanuts and cracker jacks.
I know you will probably shoot back at me his liability behind the plate, his age and lack of experience, the potential hindrance on his offensive production; and all of those are valid points. But we just traded for a young, offensively capable catcher; why not give him a shot in the pointless 2012 season and see if he can handle it?
Mark Winkel - January 20, 2012
Because when you give him a day off catching, you want him in the lineup as the DH
If he’s hitting so badly that isn’t the case, we’re in trouble. Thus, even if you plan on him getting 120 starts behind the plate (which is a significant workload), you still want to plan around Montero DHing 40 games/year.
The Ancient Mariner - January 20, 2012
I suppose there's a chance of that, just based on reports about his defense I really, really doubt he will be back there for more than 50 games this season.
BaronVonBullshit - January 20, 2012 via Android app
How about:
Jaso starts @ C vs. Righties
Montero starts @ C vs. Lefties, DHs when Jaso starts
Gimenez is emergency C/1B/OF
Olivo is traded away for a bag of baseballs and maybe a new pitching machine
red grenadine - January 20, 2012
I think Mauer is an interesting comparison.
Since both Mauer and Montero are considered extremely over sized for the position (Mauer is 6-5 230, Montero is 6-4 225). I think Mauer’s 2011 gives us a good idea of the potential nightmare scenario if the M’s try to keep Montero primarily behind the plate.
wetzelcoal - January 20, 2012
Mauer missed most of his time due to bilateral leg weakness.
Someone correct me if im wrong, but I was under the impression that’s a neurological disorder and wouldn’t have been brought on by being overworked as a catcher.
BaronVonBullshit - January 20, 2012 via Android app
My understanding was that it was a neurological symptom but can be caused by a lot of differnet things.
Either way, it seemed pretty clear at the time that Mauer’s return was slowed down quite a bit by the fact he was playing catcher (if I’m remembering correctly when he first came back he would catch one day then rest for two) because of the demands the position put on his lower body (eventually he played some 1st to get his bat in the lineup more but supposedly he didn’t want to).
wetzelcoal - January 20, 2012
It's really odd to me that Mauer is that size, has that nice of a swing, and doesn't hit more dingers.
Follows the Olerud model.
BigR - January 21, 2012
Victor Martinez might be a better comparison
It is generally agreed that Mauer is an average to above-average defensive catcher, whereas Montero is generally seen as a liability behind the plate, more similar to how Victor Martinez is seen. If Montero get’s Mauer’s usage pattern, it’s because the Mariners think he’s a good defensive catcher and they also want to get his bat in the lineup on days when he’s not catching because you can only catch so many games each year without breaking down.
ubelmann - January 20, 2012
From '04-'07 Martinez started over 100 games at catcher with almost no time as a DH and limited time at 1B.
2009 was a fairly even split between catcher and first base and in 2010 he was back to over 100 games at catcher. It was only last year where he was changed to primarily a DH, so I don’t really know that he’s a better comparison or just another similar comparison.
BaronVonBullshit - January 20, 2012
It's probably a better comparison because...
…Mauer is a good defensive catcher, Martinez was a poor defensive catcher, and the general sentiment about Montero (indeed the reason this is even a topic for a fanpost) is that he’s probably a poor defensive catcher. The point of a comparison with Martinez is that even if Montero is barely passable behind the plate (which is admittedly unknown at this point), when he’s young he could still get plenty of time there and have lots of value.
ubelmann - January 23, 2012
I don't think the M's see Montero as a catcher...yet
With Olivo/Jaso, I think we can afford to use Montero at DH for the time being as his defense slowly improves. Assuming that Carp is set at LF and Smoak at 1B, then I can’t see why the M’s would let Montero DH for the majority of the games, switch in at Catcher with Jaso during Olivo’s off days, then take over the position by the trade deadline or all star break.
EequalsMc2 - January 20, 2012
But isn't the worry that if he is DH'ing full time he won't get very many reps as a catcher?
quacker27 - January 21, 2012
He's not really DH full time though.
And one less year of catching will definitely help his longevity.
EequalsMc2 - January 21, 2012
I don't really get what Mauer's situation has to do with Montero's...
Mauer is a good defensive catcher with durability/injury concerns, Montero is a bad defensive catcher with no apparent durability/injury concerns. Other than both being catchers (or “catchers” in Montero’s case) with good bats (or potentially good bats, again in Montero’s case) the situations are pretty different – I would think finding another young good bat/bad defense catcher would be much more enlightening as to the M’s situation.
Terminator X - January 20, 2012
I think Mauer next year is the better comp to Montero
Mauer will be moving to a C/DH type role next year due to injuries, so it’ll be interesting to see if they go with 2 or 3 catchers. I think they go with 3, but one of them is Doumit who’s able to play OF.
valencia - January 20, 2012
2006 Padres
Games at Catcher (GS: Game Starts)
Mike Piazza: 99 GS, 26 CG (8 G@DH, 19@PH) 121 wRC+, 439 PA
Doug Mirabelli: 5 GS, 9 G Total, traded to Boston for Josh Bard, 26 PA
Josh Bard: 50 GS, 71 G Total (27 G@PH) 151 wRC+, 263 PA
Rob Bowen: 8 GS, 65 G Total (32 G@PH) 96 wRC+, 110 PA
They soaked one last productive year out of Piazza, his best since 2003. They got a career 1/2 season out of Bard, and a solid 100 PA out of a career backup. They did that mostly without a DH, so for Montero/Olivo/Jaso, there would likely be more than 838 PA to go around; if you give Montero 100 games at DH, there would be about 1100 PA to split up. If you assume Montero gets about 140-150 games, that’s about 600 for him, and 500 for Jaso and Olivo.
As far as roster flexibility; so what? Carrying Montero as a 60/40 DH/C with 2 pure catchers would be about the same as most teams carrying a DH with 2 pure catchers, very little roster flexibility is lost, unless you really want Wedge to have that 5th outfielder or 6th infielder. Keeping Montero from squatting behind the plate for 100+ games will likely keep him and his offensive ability healthy both in-season and through the next several years while allowing him to catch a share of games at catcher will keep his overall value high.
Also, a word of defense for Miguel Olivo:
From 2006-2010, Olivo was worth 8.9 WAR over 2081 PA, about 2.1 WAR/500 PA. Over that period, his OPS was .731 compared to a league average of (roughly) .716, .710 since 2007 and .701 last year. Olivo’s OPS was .718 on June 12th; his 57th game and 52nd start, it was the fastest he’d reached that mark since 2007 when he was 28 and also the last time he had a sub .700 OPS.
John Jaso’s career CS% is 19% in the majors, 25% in the minors. Jesus Montero’s minors CS% was 21%. Miguel Olivo’s is at 34% for his career. It would be nice to have someone on the team that would discourage runners just slightly.
Malcontent1 - January 20, 2012
It's really amazing how many games Mike Piazza caught, considering the similarities to Montero and Mauer.
Twice he caught 146 games.
BigR - January 21, 2012
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