Comment from Joe
"If X team wins a world series while Y player is on the roster, signing them to that absurd contract made sense aftter all". Legitimate argument, or annoying homerism that people use to justify bad deals way too often?
During my daily musings of the interweb baseball blogosphere, I stumbled upon this comment from Joe during Dave Camerons Fangraphs chat. Unfortunately, Joe didn’t supply his last name, but I imagine he’s a pretty ordinary average guy, with average kids, and an average life (kudos to you Mr. Joe Walsh).
His statement got me thinking of a very interesting point which pretty much sums up, from my prospective at least, the end point, or goal of baseball the game. Not Major League Baseball, where organizations are most often run like businesses aspiring to max revenues. Don’t get me wrong, you can win and max revenues, but how these businesses operate can vary widely. Through the Yankees model of constantly contending by spending lots in a huge market, or the Florida Marlins of the 1990s and 2000s spending pennies, and maximizing on "windows" of core young players, if revenue is your goal it can be achieved in many ways. However, the goal of simply the game itself is to win the World Series. The only thing better than winning the World Series once is winning it twice, three times, four times, with the ultimate, highest pedestal being reaching dynasty status.
There’s a lot to be said about putting out a consistent contending baseball team, not mortgaging your future for the present. Winning now and winning later is obviously more desirable than simply winning now. The bigger question is if it is easier and more importantly, more valuable to your franchise if you try and build a consistent contender, or simply go "all in" at certain points in order to attempt to maximize your attempts to win the World Series?
Payroll obviously has a huge effect on this. It’s a lot easier to remain a contender if you can throw a truckload of cash at a free agent because you traded away your farm or your prospects didn’t develop as expected. For a team like the Ms operating with an average or so MLB payroll the answer becomes less clear.
For a title starved city such as Seattle (Remember when the Sonics won that title in 79? I sure don’t), there may be more value, to us fans at least, in simply winning 1 World Series at the cost of X losing seasons. Whereas teams like the Yankees or Red Sox value consistent contenders to appease their ginormous fan bases and justify their humungo payrolls. I think us Ms Fans would be more willing to forgive a bad season or two if the team seriously contended for the championship.
In no way am I advocating this organization take a risk like the Prince Fielder contract, pretty sure everyone agrees that is a wee bit steep. This team isn’t really in the position to address such a situation now, but when the time comes and there seems to be an open window, should this team be striving for that one World Series title at the expense of the future? Or should we be more focused on building a consistent team, perhaps with less upside that wins for a longer time? How likely is it that we can consistently contend with the big boys at our current payroll? I only hope that the young core of players we currently have can develop to the point where the organization has to face such questions.
0 recs | 12 comments
Hmm, that code up top was not intended.
Not sure how to edit it out
paulmer37 - January 25, 2012
nvm, that was easy enough.
paulmer37 - January 25, 2012
Nevermind*
paulmer37 - January 25, 2012
*Never mind
GasolineSnuggie - January 25, 2012
The Marlins seems like a pretty good answer to this question.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/FLA/attend.shtml
Dave Clapper - January 25, 2012
Just looking back at history, going "all in" on a player does not predict you any success.
Excluding the Yankees as the anomaly that they are, here are the “All in” free agents signed to $100 million + contracts besides this year or players re-signing with the same team:
- Manny Ramirez, BOS
-Carl Crawford, BOS
- Johan Santana, METS (trade and sign)
- Alfonso Soriano, CHI
- Barry Zito, SFO
- Jayson Werth, WAS
- Mike Hampton, COL
- Cliff Lee, PHI
- Carlos Beltran, NYM
- Ken Griffey Jr, CIN
You see major contracts one year later like Joe Mauer and go “Ouch” The only one of those to work out as planned (so far) is Manny. There’s just no evidence that signing a major free agent, unless you’re New York and you can sign 7 of them, gets you a World Series.
Kenneth Arthur - January 25, 2012
"All in" is probably too strong of a term.
Whether or not you’re giving up a substantial piece of your future for one player or multiple players, there has to be a point where the risks and rewards make sense.
The 97 Marlins are a classic example of a team investing a large amount of resources into a short term window then totally cleaning house the fallowing off-season.
Owners and management seem to value the aspect of “going for it”. Whether it translates to titles or not, there must be some value in the action itself right?
Maybe it’s just me, but there seems to be these two pools of thought about how to acquire such goals, when the answer probably lies somewhere between. Or there is no one right way to go about it. However as Bavasi and plenty of other organizations have shown there are plenty of wrong ways (Like paying megabucks for a single person like you’ve shown)
paulmer37 - January 25, 2012
Yes, but people also act like the Marlins are the only team to do that.
Last season, it was the Brewers. They gave up guys like Brett Lawrie and Jake Odorizzi, and now where do they stand? No Prince Fielder… Is there window closed? They didn’t win a World Series.
And the Mets… oh God, the Mets… They consistently waste money trying to be the Marlins.
The reason that the 97 Marlins stand out to everyone, is because it’s one of the few times that plan has ever worked, if not the only time.
Kenneth Arthur - January 26, 2012
Or, you could just look below for a much better reasoning.
Kenneth Arthur - January 26, 2012
Well, adding to my post below, the '10 Giants would count if they don't make the postseason in 2012.
I assume Detroit will make it back to October baseball in 2012 given their division and team. Last year’s Brewers, if you don’t count them as the same window of opportunity as the ‘08 Brewers, would count if they’re unable to make it back.
Two Rs and Two Ls - January 26, 2012
The problem with building for one World Series is that it's so hard to hit.
Somewhat arbitrary research:
Checked in on all playoff teams from 1997-2009. I counted a team as a “going for it” team if they did not make the playoffs for two seasons or more prior to and after that year.
In the American League, there were six such teams in that stretch: The 2000 White Sox, the ’05 White Sox, the ’06 Tigers and Athletics, the ’07 Indians, and the ’08 White Sox.
Were the ‘05 and ’08 White Sox in the same “Window of Opportunity?” Maybe, but I wouldn’t say so. Four of their nine regular batters were the same (Pierzynski, Konerko, Joe Crede and Jermaine Dye) and two of their starting pitchers were the same (Buehrle and Jose Contreras). But the other moves were too significant for me to count them (Nick Swisher, Jim Thome, on the ’08 club, Freddy Garcia on the ’05 team).
The National League, not being so goddamn Yankees-heavy, had eight such teams: ’97s Marlins and Giants, the ’98 Cubs, the ’03 Marlins and Cubs, the ’06 Mets, the ’07 D-backs, and the ’08 Brewers.
Arguably the ’08 Brewers and ’11 Brewers are in the same “Window” because of Fielder and Braun, but not a single man from the ’08 rotation was with the crew in ’11. The ’98 and ’03 Cubs only had Sosa and Kerry Wood between them. The ’97 and ’02 Giants did have Jeff Kent, J.T. Snow, and some guy name Bonds but on the pitching side, Kirk Reuter was the only starter still around.
Of these 14 teams, 4 won the pennant: both Marlins, the ’05 ChiSox and ’06 Tigers. Three of the four won the series.
3 in 14 is about a 21% shot. You can argue a couple of teams out of the simple methodology, but even if you take two teams out, 3 in 12 is still only 25% if you manage to make it in once.
I think I would rather have the Red Sox from ‘97-’05 (5 appearances, 9 years, 1 ring) or the Cardinals from ‘95-’11 (9 appearances in 17 years, 3 pennants, 2 rings) than the ‘00-’08 White Sox (3 appearances separated by several years, 1 ring), or even the Florida model (2 rings, separated by 6 years).
Two Rs and Two Ls - January 26, 2012
Great information.
Having a long run of success like the Sox and Cardinals is great, but seems much tougher to do obviously, but the value is higher as well. I expected the Cards to have a larger payroll, but they’ve consistently contended with pretty the same amount of payroll as the Ms.
paulmer37 - January 26, 2012
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