A week or two ago, somebody linked me to a game recap. It was a game recap from this past season. It wasn't a recap that I wrote, and it wasn't a recap about a Mariners game. It was a recap about an ordinary game between the Indians and somebody else from like the beginning of May. I read it and my first thought was "why am I reading this?" My second thought was "holy crap, that's right, eventually they play games."
The Mariners will play games. They'll start playing games relatively soon - sooner than everybody else. All of this offseason that we've been sitting through is referred to as the offseason because it is the time off between seasons. Seasons of games.
It's easy to forget that, weirdly enough. It's easy to forget that games exist. One hundred sixty-two of them, for each team, plus the meaningless games at the beginning, and the meaningful potential games at the end. During the offseason, you can forget what games are like. During the season, you can forget what the offseason is like. There is lots of forgetting in the lives that we live.
Everything is about the games. During the games, it is about winning the games. During the offseason, it is about preparing to win more of the games. Last year, the Mariners won 67 of the games. The year before that, they won 61 of the games. How are they shaping up for 2012? How many of the games does it look like they're going to win?
Of course, we can't know anything for certain. We can't know how many games the Mariners are going to win. I don't think that we'd want to know how many games the Mariners are going to win, except for one reason. But we can project. We can project the standings to come up with a mathematical outlook.
I've seen two projections recently, presumably based on the latest roster and depth chart information. One comes courtesy of the Hardball Times, using the Oliver projection system. The other comes courtesy of Replacement Level Yankees, using the Marcel projection system.
Over a number of simulations, the former currently projects that the Mariners finish with an average record of 73-89, good for third place in the division. Over a number of simulations, the latter currently projects that the Mariners finish with an average record of 76-86, good for fourth place in the division.
The two projection systems differ on methodology, and so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they differ on a number of teams. For example, one gives the Royals 79 wins, while the other gives the Royals 62 wins. For another example, one gives the Cubs 70 wins, while the other gives the Cubs 83 wins. The correlation between the two sets of projected standings is statistically significant, but it is not incredibly strong.
With that said, they more or less agree on the Mariners. And their statistical projections for the Mariners agree with our subjective projections for the Mariners. I think the majority of people feel like the Mariners are okay, with a shot at .500. That's what these numbers are telling us. They're saying to the Angels "you're good", and then they're saying to the Rangers "you're good", and then they're turning to the Mariners and saying "hey, you're all right" while patting them on the shoulder.
So, nothing too shocking. Something to keep in mind when looking over the Marcel projections is that Marcel regresses pretty heavily, and pegs all rookies to be league-average performers. Hisashi Iwakuma? League-average performer. Yu Darvish? League-average performer. Marcel also doesn't park-adjust. Marcel is just that simplistic. It's frighteningly accurate for something so simplistic, but it's simplistic.
Conclusion: the 2012 Mariners probably aren't going to contend for the playoffs. Even signing Prince Fielder would've left them as significant underdogs. This is news to nobody. Jack Zduriencik said in a publicly-aired press conference, "let's not kid ourselves," 2012 is going to be challenging. The pre-spring training media luncheon is supposed to be all sunny and buoyant. Eric Wedge said he expects his team to contend every March. Jack Zduriencik did not say that.
Two things, though. For one, obviously, the Mariners have a chance of making the playoffs. It is not a very good chance - this chance would require an awful lot of things to happen - but it is a real chance. It is about the same as the chance of, say, Miguel Olivo hitting a home run in a given plate appearance. Not crazy, right? Maybe Justin Smoak blossoms. Maybe Kyle Seager blossoms. Maybe Franklin Gutierrez bounces back, and Ichiro bounces back, and Mike Carp becomes Raul Ibanez, and...
And for two, even if the Mariners drop out of the race, think about what could be coming. Danny Hultzen could be coming. James Paxton could be coming. Also Erasmo Ramirez, and Vinnie Catricala, and maybe Forrest Snow and Stephen Pryor and who knows. One of the things that made 2008 so impossibly terrible is that the team was bad, and there weren't many talented young reinforcements. The Mariners now have the sort of talent that could keep you watching, and keep you wanting to be watching, through to the end. Maybe it doesn't work out that way, but there's the chance. Talented youth is exciting. Come August or September, this team could be dripping with talented youth.
I think the tone of this post is oddly positive. It's weird, because I'm usually not so positive about the Mariners, and I wish the Mariners would've had a more complete offseason. I wish they would've added one more significant piece, somehow. But despite the immediate outlook, there is a lot to be positive about, and besides, who really wants to be negative about sports? What a lame way to follow sports. They're sports! Find something to be happy about, or find something else to do. Boy did this end differently than I thought it would.
4 recs | 125 comments
Mariners Baseball
Be Happy, It’s sports!
Eric Sogard - January 30, 2012
Sports is probably the single most depressing influence in my life.
zeeehjee - January 30, 2012
To be a fan of Seattle sports teams, you must have some masochist in you.
I was never a huge Sonics fan until they left Seattle.
Eric Sogard - January 30, 2012
Marriage?
EequalsMc2 - January 30, 2012
Obviously he's not married
Since he’s still allowed to have sports be an influence on his life
J0SER - January 31, 2012
This is a dumb comment.
Aaron Campeau - January 31, 2012
I think Jeff got it in the way it was intended
J0SER - January 31, 2012
Ok
Aaron Campeau - January 31, 2012
Every subthread needs a punctuation mark and you're just the commenter for the job.
abender20 - January 31, 2012
.
like this?
seattlebruin - January 31, 2012
Women
right?
Jeff Sullivan - January 31, 2012
buncha fags if you ask me
Dewey N - January 31, 2012
Seems like this hypothetical person has made a grave error in who he chose to marry
Poochie - January 31, 2012
I like Sports
Ballard Erik - January 30, 2012
Notably
this.
Ballard Erik - January 30, 2012
The new slogan?
I mean it’s not “believe big” but it would be acceptable.
Jonathan Brakke - January 30, 2012
Managing Expectations
“Baseball’s Next Big Inefficiency”
J0SER - January 31, 2012
The meaningless games right after the first meaningful games will be awkward
lemonverbena - January 30, 2012
This is a really good little write-up
I agree with Mr. Sullivan that when you envision your team, especially one like the Mariners, having a good year, you pretty much have to have every piece fall into place. You need the 2009 Guti back and all the young guys maximizing their potential. And then there are the injuries. The Giants had a good pitching staff, but for their 2010 run, it just all had to fall into place. Posey gets hurt last year and a few other injuries to their pitchers and it just wasnt’ the same. I hate to predict wins, but I think being in contention is a huge things. I think it was neat to be in contention uni July last year. Maybe this year we can content until August. Then soon it will be September and that’s when it gets to be some fun. You know watching what other teams are doing and having big games.
Let'sNotKidOurselves - January 30, 2012
Oh man, I hadn't thought about Michael Saunders in months...
Now I’m sad.
SethGrandpa - January 30, 2012
Tweaked his swing!
It’s all gonna happen for him now!
Jeff Sullivan - January 30, 2012
But is he in the best shape of his life?
If someone puts that on the internet I promise to believe big.
C Dubya - January 30, 2012
He does look really great in person
Jeff Sullivan - January 30, 2012
Could you tell from looking at him whether or not he's still frijoles refritos?
abender20 - January 30, 2012
I'm sorry I just keep reading "delicious"
Jeff Sullivan - January 30, 2012
He looks like Michael Bolton
If he were in the best shape of his life.
Jim226 - January 30, 2012
This is like the eighth time.
It’s gotta work one of these times!
Mariner John - January 30, 2012
Yea but remember what happened last time he "tweaked" his swing?
He was terrible. Who knows maybe he’ll find it. Or maybe the team will trade him away and he will have a breakout season that shocks the Mariner community (see: Michael Morse)
Jonathan Brakke - January 30, 2012
I wish I could go back in time to 2009.
And tell myself that one of the people in this picture would be the M’s starting Left Fielder in 2012.

wetzelcoal - January 30, 2012
"I can't believe we're starting a terminal four-year-old"
Jeff Sullivan - January 30, 2012
At least in that scenario we could then say "awwwww" after a Mariner plate appearance, without feeling compelled to follow it with "shit"
TIFO - January 30, 2012
That lady in the background has 30 HR power.
wetzelcoal - January 31, 2012
Jeff, Matthew, I responded to this post by simply saying:
“Sadly, I can.”
But, it got deleted. You guys seriously need to lighten up if you think that’s in need of deletion. Your fans should be allowed to respond to you.
Ride the Apocalypse - January 31, 2012
It was flagged
I happened to agree.
Jeff Sullivan - January 31, 2012
It adds just as much as almost any other reply
In that I said what I was thinking and responded thus. There are instances of people doing this in every comments section; adding their “two cents,” even if it isn’t something that adds incredible depth to the conversation.
I believe this kind of extreme post scavenging goes too far.
Ride the Apocalypse - January 31, 2012
It's a peeve of mine
I will readily admit that I don’t hide every comment that doesn’t add anything, but not every comment that doesn’t add anything gets flagged, and in this instance I feel like the thread reads better without it. Do you disagree? This community and people in general could stand to learn a lesson about letting jokes stand for themselves.
Jeff Sullivan - January 31, 2012
That's clearly your preference to "let a joke stand," but enforcing it as a rule just limits your audience's freedom and puts them at the mercy of your personal preferences.
Do it that way if you want, I can’t stop you. I just don’t like it and I can already see that it breeds a bandwagon of people here trying to ensure that you limit any input that rubs them the wrong way. I don’t like having my input squashed for such a middling cause.
Anyways, I appreciate your responses and value your input on this site. It’s why I come here, to read your articles.
Ride the Apocalypse - January 31, 2012
.
lemonverbena - January 31, 2012
This would be a wonderful example of a case in which a reply adds nothing
So, why does it get to stay and my post doesn’t?
Ride the Apocalypse - February 1, 2012
It wasn't in response to a joke a lot of people were enjoying
OlSalty - February 1, 2012
I don't understand how my follow-up joke took away anyone's enjoyment of the original joke.
But then, I’ve always had that point of view. For example, bad sequels never ruin the originals for me.
Anyways, I’m not going to make any more of a deal over it. I expressed my opinions, Jeff listened and responded. Even though we don’t agree, I appreciate that he took the time to engage my complaints. That is a good sign of fairness, so I’ll step down and carry on.
Thanks for the responses, Jeff.
Ride the Apocalypse - February 1, 2012
Hell's bells, man, let it go
The Clique will do as they wish.
Chris_FB - February 1, 2012
Jeff is part of "the clique"?
Mariner John - February 1, 2012
I don't appreciate this
Jeff Sullivan - February 1, 2012
It was only flagged by you and you have a bone to pick
Jeff Sullivan - February 1, 2012
It's still no more irrelevant to the discussion that anything I've said.
But I understand that it won’t be removed, for fear of validating any of my complaints. But ultimately, I don’t want my posts to be singled out.
Ride the Apocalypse - February 1, 2012
*no less, not "no more"
Ride the Apocalypse - February 1, 2012
If people could just learn to do this personally I would actually try to participate more not less
Frequently when someone posts something witty or creative some people feel compelled to respond in a way that basically ends the joke because their comment cannot be taken anywhere funny. Not because they are trying to shut it down on purpose, but that’s what happens when you take the joke in a direction that concludes it.
This is a big rule in improvisation (which is basically what we’re doing in the comments here). Don’t respond in a way that shuts down what the other person was trying to do. If you have something really interesting to respond with, it should be something that accepts the joke that’s been made then additionally builds off of it. Otherwise just let the joke stay there and rec it if you like it. Everyone would be better off if we could all just follow that simple guideline.
OlSalty - January 31, 2012
For whatever reason, terminal four-year-old is what comes to my mind when I think of Munenori Kawasaki
He’s probably not four but I doubt he’s older than 10
Dewey N - January 31, 2012
I was reading the beginning of the article.
And my girlfriend walked by and saw the picture of Michael Saunders. “Hey!” she said, “He’s good lookin!” I sighed really heavily and sort of rubbed my eyes and shook my head slowly. She was confused because she thought she was showing interest in my interests, which should have been a positive move for her.
“Wait” she added, “Is he dead?”
moyerLIVES - January 30, 2012
That is just so Mariners
WhyGodWhy - January 30, 2012
Your interests are athletic young men?
Wait, my interests are athletic young men. I sprung that trap on myself.
JAH - January 30, 2012
What confuses me
is that people think the A’s are going to be any better.
Bubbles. - January 30, 2012
From the moves they've made this offseason
it seems like they are totally giving up on this season. Maybe they are just going full rebuild mode. I don’t know. better for the M’s i guess
Jonathan Brakke - January 30, 2012
They're taking their lumps now
To make sure that in 2013 they’re at least better than the Astros.
J0SER - January 31, 2012
I was wondering this yesterday:
In years past, how many wins have teams projected to win x games actually gotten? More to the point, what (historically) is the probability of a projected-74-win-team making the playoffs?
RunningFool - January 30, 2012
Bodog (well, now, Bovada) has M's odds of winning the WS at 75:1
For what that is worth.
Chris_FB - January 30, 2012 via mobile
Better than the Astros!
the other side - January 30, 2012
Once they come to the AL West that would make a great new slogan for the Mariners
TIFO - January 30, 2012
"We're not Detroit!"
Cheddar28 - January 31, 2012
Sigh...
I remember having such high hopes for Condor.
Westside guy - January 30, 2012
I still want to know...
Why someone sent you an Indians game recap from last April?
Housedjbo - January 30, 2012
It was probably the Recap in Pictures from 2008
seattlebruin - January 31, 2012
To point out how boring it was
Jeff Sullivan - January 31, 2012
that is boring
and now boring and redundant.
Housedjbo - January 31, 2012
I don't get how the A's are projected ahead of us on RLY.
Robert Praetor - January 30, 2012
That's what confuses me.
The just seem like an even more incomplete team now.
Bubbles. - January 30, 2012
Same here.
What the heck, projections?
ThirteenOfTwo - January 30, 2012
Brad Pitt Effect
Eric Wedge's Mustache - January 30, 2012
Nah, this is all Jonah Hill
Brad Pitt has never been the same since Hill left to briefly run the Dodgers
J0SER - January 31, 2012
Why the heck did Grady Fuson let them keep his name when DePo didn't (thus creating Peter Brand)?
yuniform - January 31, 2012 via Android app
Probably because he was being played by Jonah Hill.
joof - January 31, 2012
Well, DePo was a two-sport athlete at Harvard and had worked as a scout
So regardless of who they actually cast in the role, the character itself was clearly fictitious. I could understand why he wouldn’t want his name attached even if the actor was some Twilight/Gossip Girl heartthrob.
Though frankly I like this version better.
J0SER - February 1, 2012
Seriously. They blew up their starting rotation and have nothing to build on in terms of offense, besides for maybe Weeks.
They are banking a lot on all of these prospects they are receiving to all break through at the same time a la Tampa Bay Rays, but that is a very tall order.
EthanN - January 31, 2012
How is this different than what we are doing?
mebpenguin - January 31, 2012
We have Felix
WhyGodWhy - January 31, 2012
It isn't, but the Mariners' have, for the most part, the better prospects.
The M’s also have about a $20 mil advantage in payroll. Plus, Felix.
EthanN - January 31, 2012
I imagine they plan on playing a bunch of rookies?
And apparently they all get penciled in for league average.
browl - January 31, 2012
Yeah, I think that's the essence of it.
Beane can no longer pull a fast one on the rest of baseball, but he’s figured out how to break Marcel.
Add in the Rangers getting under-rated for the same reason (Yu is calculated as average as well) and thus not beating up the A’s (or M’s) quite so much, and you can see how things get skewed.
J0SER - January 31, 2012
I think Jose Bautista would be a perfect fit for this franchise
Poochie - January 30, 2012
Too Old.
EequalsMc2 - February 1, 2012
I think Benji Gil would be a perfect fit for this franchise.
universalguru - January 30, 2012
This comment gives me hope:
It sounds better than patting the Mariners on the head, ruffling their hair and saying, “hey, you’re alll right!”
extavernmouse - January 30, 2012
And much better than looking worriedly at them and saying "hey, are you all right?"
Mothy - January 31, 2012
"Come August or September, this team could be dripping with talented youth."
SUUULLIVAAAN!
stredarts - January 31, 2012
Well...
Remember how sure a lot of people were that the 2010 Mariners would contend? And then every single thing that could possibly fail to pan out… failed to pan out?
What if 2012 is the opposite?
: /
NickH44 - January 31, 2012
I've been playing with WAR projections.
My best case scenario for the M’s, if everyone performs above expectations, a couple of young guys really bust out, and no one gets hurt is for about 90 wins. That’s still probably not good enough to win the division, although it will keep us in the hunt almost the whole year and may let us slip in as a wild card team.
mebpenguin - January 31, 2012
Strength of schedule
If we’re hoping or pipe dreaming, we have to take into account who we’re seeing those 90 wins come from. Who tanks, in this scenario? Do the M’s play .500 ball against the Rangers and Angels (a stretch in and of itself) but then completely own interleague play, plus dominating the Twins, Orioles, Astros, etc.? Or doeone of the other AL West teams have to thoroughly crater for this best case to work?
Chris_FB - January 31, 2012
"doeone" = "do one", but in a thoroughly charming accent, obviously...
Chris_FB - January 31, 2012
There's an amusing FanPost that did the same thing!
yuniform - January 31, 2012 via Android app
Wouldn't it be good if it were the opposite?
Mariner John - January 31, 2012
2010 had Cliff Lee
MT Olson - January 31, 2012
But we have...we have...uh...
EequalsMc2 - February 1, 2012
The problem with projection systems
Is that they really cannot account for rookie potential. If they did, then the win go total would be higher. Montero is supposed to be better than average but who knows. If the kids from the farm meet their projections from minor league analysts, the predicted win totals are probably low.
Thurston24 - January 31, 2012 via Android app
They do account for it, they just take a more moderate projection because of how often prospects fail.
Mariner John - January 31, 2012
God I would be such a good prognosticator if I got to pick everyone's 90% projections every year and always be right
seattlebruin - January 31, 2012
No you're only supposed to pick the 90% projections for the players you like
Dewey N - January 31, 2012
Jose Lopez is going to hit three home runs next season!
seattlebruin - January 31, 2012
Impossible, 110%
Dewey N - January 31, 2012
I bet he'll hit at least 4.
joof - January 31, 2012
Maybe I have a different memory of history than other people, but this is how I remember pre-season expectations for the M's recently:
2005: “We added Sexson and Beltre! We’re gonna rock!!!” (M’s win 69 games)
2006: “M’s could be better!” (And they were. 78 wins.)
2007: “We still ain’t really good though.” (88 wins and late season playoff hopes!)
2008: “We got Silva! We won 88 games last year! Everyone can suck it, PLAYOFFS!!!!” (Then 2008 happened.)
2009: “Mariners suck.” (Hey, they JJ Putz trade was fresh and it was also dope. I like this Z guy. 85 wins.)
2010: “EVERYBODY BOW TO THE Z MAN! WE GOT CLIFF LEE IDIOTS! START THE PLAYOFF CHANTS NOW!!! PLAY-OFFS! PLAY-OFFS! PLAY-OFFS!” (Well, at least this was a more interesting season than 2008.)
2011: “M’s are no good.”
So, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 all turned out much differently than I expected. I’d say our playoff hopes based on pre-season expectations are looking pretty good right now.
Kenneth Arthur - January 31, 2012
and 2004 turned out differently than expected- so the sample size is even larger!
Corco - January 31, 2012
And don't mention 2002/2003!
seamariners85 - January 31, 2012
2002 and 2003 turned out exactly how we expected
we thought we would be good and then were
seattlebruin - January 31, 2012
True, just not good enough.
2002/2003 were different than expected, for me at least, because we missed the playoffs when I remember basically assuming we’d get in. It’s still hard to believe we won 93 games back to back years and missed out on the playoffs both times.
seamariners85 - January 31, 2012
My first Mariners game was in 2004.
Also, I found another shared center turning lane in Hartford today, near Main Street and Westland Street in the North End.
Jim226 - January 31, 2012
Ahh 2007
Ho. Ly. Balls.
I’m Trying To Rationalize This But I Can’t.
ThundaPC - January 31, 2012
More!
Why This Month Has Been So Terrifying
ThundaPC - January 31, 2012
Man, nothing like going back to the Bavasi days to give you some fresh perspective on our current lot.
Good grief, those were some dark days.
sanford_and_son - January 31, 2012
Any doubt that I had about Jack Z
has instantly been erased. I feel so much better than I did earlier this week.
Bubbles. - January 31, 2012
These are so good.
sanford_and_son - January 31, 2012
Irony!
They used to be well-regarded but now they are not!
katal - January 31, 2012
Well at least Snelling never amounted to anything
Aly Edge - February 3, 2012
Who in the world was happy about Carlos Silva?
CapSea - January 31, 2012
Geoff Baker?
Andersean - January 31, 2012
Detecto, probably.
katal - January 31, 2012
Well that's true. That guy was ecstatic. ... dept.
CapSea - January 31, 2012
Well, I'm not saying that it was a Cliff Lee move, but at the time it seemed to me like a good addition during a time when we seemed to be getting better.
Remember that I knew less back then.
Kenneth Arthur - January 31, 2012
Oh I don't know about that.
Replace FIP with UZR and I was baller on this one.
CapSea - January 31, 2012
Excuse me. Replace FIP with tRA.
CapSea - January 31, 2012
The Twins.
EequalsMc2 - February 1, 2012
Our 2012 slogan should be a take off on the old Spahn and Sain rhyme.
Something like.. Seattle Mariners: pray for rain!
Comma - January 31, 2012
Our stadium has a retractable roof and two of our division rivals are located in Southern California and Eastern Texas
seattlebruin - February 1, 2012
Which is why we'd need to pray
Jeff Sullivan - February 1, 2012
Or the old Niekro and Ryan rhyme
Felix and…….
…..
FOUR days of cryin’, I guess :’(
Aly Edge - February 3, 2012
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