SB Nation - Login for mobile commenting

Lookout Landing

What To Expect

A week or two ago, somebody linked me to a game recap. It was a game recap from this past season. It wasn't a recap that I wrote, and it wasn't a recap about a Mariners game. It was a recap about an ordinary game between the Indians and somebody else from like the beginning of May. I read it and my first thought was "why am I reading this?" My second thought was "holy crap, that's right, eventually they play games."

The Mariners will play games. They'll start playing games relatively soon - sooner than everybody else. All of this offseason that we've been sitting through is referred to as the offseason because it is the time off between seasons. Seasons of games.

It's easy to forget that, weirdly enough. It's easy to forget that games exist. One hundred sixty-two of them, for each team, plus the meaningless games at the beginning, and the meaningful potential games at the end. During the offseason, you can forget what games are like. During the season, you can forget what the offseason is like. There is lots of forgetting in the lives that we live.

Everything is about the games. During the games, it is about winning the games. During the offseason, it is about preparing to win more of the games. Last year, the Mariners won 67 of the games. The year before that, they won 61 of the games. How are they shaping up for 2012? How many of the games does it look like they're going to win?

Of course, we can't know anything for certain. We can't know how many games the Mariners are going to win. I don't think that we'd want to know how many games the Mariners are going to win, except for one reason. But we can project. We can project the standings to come up with a mathematical outlook.

I've seen two projections recently, presumably based on the latest roster and depth chart information. One comes courtesy of the Hardball Times, using the Oliver projection system. The other comes courtesy of Replacement Level Yankees, using the Marcel projection system.

Over a number of simulations, the former currently projects that the Mariners finish with an average record of 73-89, good for third place in the division. Over a number of simulations, the latter currently projects that the Mariners finish with an average record of 76-86, good for fourth place in the division.

The two projection systems differ on methodology, and so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they differ on a number of teams. For example, one gives the Royals 79 wins, while the other gives the Royals 62 wins. For another example, one gives the Cubs 70 wins, while the other gives the Cubs 83 wins. The correlation between the two sets of projected standings is statistically significant, but it is not incredibly strong.

With that said, they more or less agree on the Mariners. And their statistical projections for the Mariners agree with our subjective projections for the Mariners. I think the majority of people feel like the Mariners are okay, with a shot at .500. That's what these numbers are telling us. They're saying to the Angels "you're good", and then they're saying to the Rangers "you're good", and then they're turning to the Mariners and saying "hey, you're all right" while patting them on the shoulder.

So, nothing too shocking. Something to keep in mind when looking over the Marcel projections is that Marcel regresses pretty heavily, and pegs all rookies to be league-average performers. Hisashi Iwakuma? League-average performer. Yu Darvish? League-average performer. Marcel also doesn't park-adjust. Marcel is just that simplistic. It's frighteningly accurate for something so simplistic, but it's simplistic.

Conclusion: the 2012 Mariners probably aren't going to contend for the playoffs. Even signing Prince Fielder would've left them as significant underdogs. This is news to nobody. Jack Zduriencik said in a publicly-aired press conference, "let's not kid ourselves," 2012 is going to be challenging. The pre-spring training media luncheon is supposed to be all sunny and buoyant. Eric Wedge said he expects his team to contend every March. Jack Zduriencik did not say that.

Two things, though. For one, obviously, the Mariners have a chance of making the playoffs. It is not a very good chance - this chance would require an awful lot of things to happen - but it is a real chance. It is about the same as the chance of, say, Miguel Olivo hitting a home run in a given plate appearance. Not crazy, right? Maybe Justin Smoak blossoms. Maybe Kyle Seager blossoms. Maybe Franklin Gutierrez bounces back, and Ichiro bounces back, and Mike Carp becomes Raul Ibanez, and...

And for two, even if the Mariners drop out of the race, think about what could be coming. Danny Hultzen could be coming. James Paxton could be coming. Also Erasmo Ramirez, and Vinnie Catricala, and maybe Forrest Snow and Stephen Pryor and who knows. One of the things that made 2008 so impossibly terrible is that the team was bad, and there weren't many talented young reinforcements. The Mariners now have the sort of talent that could keep you watching, and keep you wanting to be watching, through to the end. Maybe it doesn't work out that way, but there's the chance. Talented youth is exciting. Come August or September, this team could be dripping with talented youth.

I think the tone of this post is oddly positive. It's weird, because I'm usually not so positive about the Mariners, and I wish the Mariners would've had a more complete offseason. I wish they would've added one more significant piece, somehow. But despite the immediate outlook, there is a lot to be positive about, and besides, who really wants to be negative about sports? What a lame way to follow sports. They're sports! Find something to be happy about, or find something else to do. Boy did this end differently than I thought it would.

4 recs  |  125 comments

Comments

Mariners Baseball

Be Happy, It’s sports!

Sports is probably the single most depressing influence in my life.
To be a fan of Seattle sports teams, you must have some masochist in you.

I was never a huge Sonics fan until they left Seattle.

Marriage?
Obviously he's not married

Since he’s still allowed to have sports be an influence on his life

Seems like this hypothetical person has made a grave error in who he chose to marry
The new slogan?

I mean it’s not “believe big” but it would be acceptable.

The meaningless games right after the first meaningful games will be awkward
This is a really good little write-up

I agree with Mr. Sullivan that when you envision your team, especially one like the Mariners, having a good year, you pretty much have to have every piece fall into place. You need the 2009 Guti back and all the young guys maximizing their potential. And then there are the injuries. The Giants had a good pitching staff, but for their 2010 run, it just all had to fall into place. Posey gets hurt last year and a few other injuries to their pitchers and it just wasnt’ the same. I hate to predict wins, but I think being in contention is a huge things. I think it was neat to be in contention uni July last year. Maybe this year we can content until August. Then soon it will be September and that’s when it gets to be some fun. You know watching what other teams are doing and having big games.

Oh man, I hadn't thought about Michael Saunders in months...

Now I’m sad.

Tweaked his swing!

It’s all gonna happen for him now!

But is he in the best shape of his life?

If someone puts that on the internet I promise to believe big.

He does look really great in person
Could you tell from looking at him whether or not he's still frijoles refritos?
I'm sorry I just keep reading "delicious"
He looks like Michael Bolton

If he were in the best shape of his life.

This is like the eighth time.

It’s gotta work one of these times!

Yea but remember what happened last time he "tweaked" his swing?

He was terrible. Who knows maybe he’ll find it. Or maybe the team will trade him away and he will have a breakout season that shocks the Mariner community (see: Michael Morse)

I wish I could go back in time to 2009.

And tell myself that one of the people in this picture would be the M’s starting Left Fielder in 2012.

What confuses me

is that people think the A’s are going to be any better.

From the moves they've made this offseason

it seems like they are totally giving up on this season. Maybe they are just going full rebuild mode. I don’t know. better for the M’s i guess

They're taking their lumps now

To make sure that in 2013 they’re at least better than the Astros.

I was wondering this yesterday:

In years past, how many wins have teams projected to win x games actually gotten? More to the point, what (historically) is the probability of a projected-74-win-team making the playoffs?

Bodog (well, now, Bovada) has M's odds of winning the WS at 75:1

For what that is worth.

Better than the Astros!
Once they come to the AL West that would make a great new slogan for the Mariners
"We're not Detroit!"
Sigh...

I remember having such high hopes for Condor.

I still want to know...

Why someone sent you an Indians game recap from last April?

It was probably the Recap in Pictures from 2008
To point out how boring it was
that is boring

and now boring and redundant.

I don't get how the A's are projected ahead of us on RLY.
That's what confuses me.

The just seem like an even more incomplete team now.

Same here.

What the heck, projections?

Brad Pitt Effect
Nah, this is all Jonah Hill

Brad Pitt has never been the same since Hill left to briefly run the Dodgers

Why the heck did Grady Fuson let them keep his name when DePo didn't (thus creating Peter Brand)?
Probably because he was being played by Jonah Hill.
Well, DePo was a two-sport athlete at Harvard and had worked as a scout

So regardless of who they actually cast in the role, the character itself was clearly fictitious. I could understand why he wouldn’t want his name attached even if the actor was some Twilight/Gossip Girl heartthrob.

Though frankly I like this version better.

Seriously. They blew up their starting rotation and have nothing to build on in terms of offense, besides for maybe Weeks.

They are banking a lot on all of these prospects they are receiving to all break through at the same time a la Tampa Bay Rays, but that is a very tall order.

How is this different than what we are doing?
It isn't, but the Mariners' have, for the most part, the better prospects.

The M’s also have about a $20 mil advantage in payroll. Plus, Felix.

I imagine they plan on playing a bunch of rookies?

And apparently they all get penciled in for league average.

Yeah, I think that's the essence of it.

Beane can no longer pull a fast one on the rest of baseball, but he’s figured out how to break Marcel.

Add in the Rangers getting under-rated for the same reason (Yu is calculated as average as well) and thus not beating up the A’s (or M’s) quite so much, and you can see how things get skewed.

I think Jose Bautista would be a perfect fit for this franchise
I think Benji Gil would be a perfect fit for this franchise.
This comment gives me hope:
then they’re turning to the Mariners and saying “hey, you’re all right” while patting them on the shoulder.

It sounds better than patting the Mariners on the head, ruffling their hair and saying, “hey, you’re alll right!”

And much better than looking worriedly at them and saying "hey, are you all right?"
"Come August or September, this team could be dripping with talented youth."

SUUULLIVAAAN!

Well...

Remember how sure a lot of people were that the 2010 Mariners would contend? And then every single thing that could possibly fail to pan out… failed to pan out?

What if 2012 is the opposite?

: /

I've been playing with WAR projections.

My best case scenario for the M’s, if everyone performs above expectations, a couple of young guys really bust out, and no one gets hurt is for about 90 wins. That’s still probably not good enough to win the division, although it will keep us in the hunt almost the whole year and may let us slip in as a wild card team.

Strength of schedule

If we’re hoping or pipe dreaming, we have to take into account who we’re seeing those 90 wins come from. Who tanks, in this scenario? Do the M’s play .500 ball against the Rangers and Angels (a stretch in and of itself) but then completely own interleague play, plus dominating the Twins, Orioles, Astros, etc.? Or doeone of the other AL West teams have to thoroughly crater for this best case to work?

"doeone" = "do one", but in a thoroughly charming accent, obviously...
There's an amusing FanPost that did the same thing!
Wouldn't it be good if it were the opposite?
2010 had Cliff Lee
But we have...we have...uh...
The problem with projection systems

Is that they really cannot account for rookie potential. If they did, then the win go total would be higher. Montero is supposed to be better than average but who knows. If the kids from the farm meet their projections from minor league analysts, the predicted win totals are probably low.

They do account for it, they just take a more moderate projection because of how often prospects fail.
God I would be such a good prognosticator if I got to pick everyone's 90% projections every year and always be right
No you're only supposed to pick the 90% projections for the players you like
Jose Lopez is going to hit three home runs next season!
Impossible, 110%
I bet he'll hit at least 4.
Maybe I have a different memory of history than other people, but this is how I remember pre-season expectations for the M's recently:

2005: “We added Sexson and Beltre! We’re gonna rock!!!” (M’s win 69 games)
2006: “M’s could be better!” (And they were. 78 wins.)
2007: “We still ain’t really good though.” (88 wins and late season playoff hopes!)
2008: “We got Silva! We won 88 games last year! Everyone can suck it, PLAYOFFS!!!!” (Then 2008 happened.)
2009: “Mariners suck.” (Hey, they JJ Putz trade was fresh and it was also dope. I like this Z guy. 85 wins.)
2010: “EVERYBODY BOW TO THE Z MAN! WE GOT CLIFF LEE IDIOTS! START THE PLAYOFF CHANTS NOW!!! PLAY-OFFS! PLAY-OFFS! PLAY-OFFS!” (Well, at least this was a more interesting season than 2008.)
2011: “M’s are no good.”

So, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 all turned out much differently than I expected. I’d say our playoff hopes based on pre-season expectations are looking pretty good right now.

and 2004 turned out differently than expected- so the sample size is even larger!
And don't mention 2002/2003!
2002 and 2003 turned out exactly how we expected

we thought we would be good and then were

True, just not good enough.

2002/2003 were different than expected, for me at least, because we missed the playoffs when I remember basically assuming we’d get in. It’s still hard to believe we won 93 games back to back years and missed out on the playoffs both times.

My first Mariners game was in 2004.

Also, I found another shared center turning lane in Hartford today, near Main Street and Westland Street in the North End.

Ahh 2007

Ho. Ly. Balls.
I’m Trying To Rationalize This But I Can’t.

More!

Why This Month Has Been So Terrifying

Man, nothing like going back to the Bavasi days to give you some fresh perspective on our current lot.

Good grief, those were some dark days.

Any doubt that I had about Jack Z

has instantly been erased. I feel so much better than I did earlier this week.

Well at least Snelling never amounted to anything
Who in the world was happy about Carlos Silva?
Detecto, probably.
Well that's true. That guy was ecstatic. ... dept.
Well, I'm not saying that it was a Cliff Lee move, but at the time it seemed to me like a good addition during a time when we seemed to be getting better.

Remember that I knew less back then.

Oh I don't know about that.

Replace FIP with UZR and I was baller on this one.

Excuse me. Replace FIP with tRA.
Our 2012 slogan should be a take off on the old Spahn and Sain rhyme.

Something like.. Seattle Mariners: pray for rain!

Our stadium has a retractable roof and two of our division rivals are located in Southern California and Eastern Texas
Which is why we'd need to pray
Or the old Niekro and Ryan rhyme

Felix and…….

…..

FOUR days of cryin’, I guess :’(

You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of Lookout Landing to post a comment.