The first thought is that it's good news. In Edgar Martinez's second year on the Hall of Fame ballot, he received 32.9 percent support. In Edgar Martinez's third year on the ballot, he received 36.5 percent support. That's a bump - a bigger bump than, say, Larry Walker got, or Dale Murphy got - and Edgar's way ahead of where Bert Blyleven was at this point. It struck me that things are looking pretty good for Edgar to make the Hall of Fame sometime way down the line.
The second thought is that it's bad news. In Edgar Martinez's first year on the ballot, he received 36.2 percent support. Before he went up, he went down, such that after three years, he's basically where he was after one. Again, he's doing better than Blyleven was early on, but Blyleven only got in after an unbelievably exhaustive campaign on his behalf by a number of analysts. We can't count on the same campaign for Edgar. Maybe he won't get in. Maybe he'll be hurt by his peers, like Jeff Bagwell. Maybe a sufficiently large group of writers will never get past the DH hurdle. Maybe Edgar's stuck.
The third thought is that it just doesn't matter. Much, anyway. It matters a little, in that it's important to Edgar, and relevant to us because it's important to Edgar, but think about it. We're talking about the Hall of Fame. Players are voted into the Hall of Fame by the Baseball Writers' Association of America. This year, the Baseball Writers' Association of America cast 321 ballots in support of Jeff Bagwell, and 382 ballots in support of Jack Morris. Bagwell was a superstar. He was a superstar, a bunch of times. Morris was pretty good, some of the time. No offense to the members of the BBWAA worthy of respect, but we're supposed to care what these people think?
There is no definition of a Hall of Fame-caliber player. There are guidelines, but the guidelines don't mean anything. Every decision is basically a judgment call, and while some judgments are obvious and easy, others are not, and that's a problem. Edgar isn't a hands-down, all-time great, and without an objective lower threshold, it's all a big subjective mess. You get arguments about his not contributing in the field. You get arguments about longevity. You get arguments about how his hit total's too low. Every voter is voting for his own personal Hall.
Moving beyond that, what is the purpose of the Hall of Fame? The purpose of the Hall of Fame, presumably, is to serve as a museum, educating visitors about the game's past. Do you think there are any Mariners fans who need to learn about Edgar Martinez? Do you think there are other baseball fans who need to learn about Edgar Martinez, and who will only learn about him if he's in the Hall? Induction is an honor, but it's an honor with little value beyond that, and it's an honor bestowed by the same people who made Barry Zito the 2002 AL Cy Young. Not that the BBWAA isn't getting better about its voting habits, but it's still a body of sportswriters.
Whether or not Edgar Martinez is ever voted into the Hall of Fame won't make a lick of difference when it comes to how he's remembered in the Pacific Northwest. Edgar's Edgar - one of the greatest Mariners to have ever worn the uniform. That's independent of his status in Cooperstown. And I can't imagine it'll make too much of a difference when it comes to how he's remembered elsewhere. Edgar was terrifying. He was one of the best right-handed hitters a bunch of pitchers ever saw. A plaque on a faraway wall doesn't solidify memories, just as a lack of a plaque doesn't allow those memories to dissolve any faster.
I think I'm rambling, mostly because I don't have much experience writing about this. Generally I avoid writing about the Hall of Fame, because the Hall of Fame doesn't do much for me, and this is my blog. I don't know if Edgar Martinez will ever make the Hall of Fame. I honestly don't know if Edgar Martinez deserves to make the Hall of Fame, the way it currently is, in that some of the arguments against him are not illegitimate. But I know that Edgar Martinez was one of the greatest hitters I've ever seen. I know that a lot of other people and a lot of other players and coaches feel the same way. Some hundreds of ballots cast by writers aren't ever going to change anything about that. If Edgar's inducted, there'll be some celebrations, but when the celebrations are over, we'll all go back to thinking about him the way we do today.
0 recs | 86 comments
"Edgar - one of the greatest Mariners to have ever worn the uniform" - not just one of the greatest, THE greatest, in my opinion.
Chris_FB - January 9, 2012
Here's why I care
Every year the fans of the inductees get to go to Cooperstown and have a huge celebration. When Griffey and the Unit get in, we’ll have to share them with the Reds (who get to go this year anyway and also are more than well-represented in Cooperstown) and Diamondbacks (those long-suffering fans in Phoenix), respectively. Edgar is ours alone.
Breadbaker - January 9, 2012
Edgar getting into the Hall of Fame means his number will finally be retired.
Which I care about for some reason.
Mariner John - January 9, 2012
It's only speculation, but it's been my speculation a long time
The Mariners will retire #11. But they will retire #24 first.
Junior’s not going to get a street. Niehaus got the first statue. I think they want to save some kind of honor for Griffey to be the first.
Two Rs and Two Ls - January 9, 2012
Technically, 11 could get retired without Edgar making the HOF
The team bylaws are that a player must be inducted to the Hall of Fame as a Mariner, or “narrowly miss” induction while spending his entire career with the club.
That should cover both Edgar and Griffey.
Aly Edge - January 9, 2012
It's already effectively retired
Blood would probably flow in the streets if they ever gave it to anyone.
chaney - January 9, 2012
Yes, but I don't like having our only officially retired number be from someone who never played for us.
Mariner John - January 9, 2012
I thought Alvin Davis' number was retired...
but it looks like Guti is presently using it. I doubt that Griffey!’s 24 will ever see use by anyone else.
JY - January 9, 2012
I was not a fan of Guti taking #21.
AD was the first player inducted into the Mariner Hall of Fame. I know he’s not Baseball HOF material, but he was the first Mariner to be well known out of Seattle for something other than being shitty (Mendoza). I’m ok with the Mariners not retiring numbers left and right, but not one Mariner in the history of the franchise has earned that honor yet? Seems a little extreme to me.
KC Mariner - January 9, 2012
Hargrove wore 21 too
Corco - January 9, 2012
And so did David Segui.
Two Rs and Two Ls - January 9, 2012
Fuck me.
Actually fuck the Mariners for not putting 21 aside.
KC Mariner - January 9, 2012
I never knew that.
I wasn’t able to watch a lot of Mariner games when he was manger. The fact that the club handed it out twice doesn’t make me feel any better.
KC Mariner - January 9, 2012
They still haven't re-issued 19 or 14 since Buhner and Lou left
Corco - January 9, 2012
Ugh....I seriously scrolled down to every comment before this one
Sorry to be redundant.
Aly Edge - January 10, 2012
Yes, I like that 11 and 24 are "unofficially retired"
Also 14 (Lou Piniella) and 19 (Jay Buhner). It probably means nothing, but 3 (Alex Rodriguez) on the other hand has been issued to, among others, Bob Melvin and Pokey Reese. That just seems….just to me.
Aly Edge - January 10, 2012
I don't care if anyone wears Arod's jersey
Screw him!
datboyeddiep - January 10, 2012
And :(edeno!
seattlebruin - January 10, 2012
I think I actually prefer their method of "we won't retire numbers for non-HOFers, but out of respect and mutual trust, that number won't be issued for a while."
I believe Ichiro had to get permission from Randy Johnson to wear #51, for instance.
Benne - January 9, 2012
Yeah, their going to have to retire 51 AND 102.
quacker27 - January 9, 2012
Did Randy get permission from Quinones to wear 51?
yuniform - January 10, 2012 via Android app
They really should retire his number at the end of this season
If we did that whole dog and pony show and make a huge deal about it, it could help sway voters.
And honestly, I care more about seeing Martinez 11 hanging from the rafters than the plaque in Cooperstown.
Corco - January 9, 2012
Although if I ever make it to Cooperstown I'm sure my opinion on this will change
Corco - January 9, 2012
One of the coolest things the Mariners did concerning his number
was when Pepsi One had logos on the wall, they put two of them together in right field in honor of Edgar.
seattle_since_81 - January 9, 2012
If Edgar not getting in to the HOF doesn't matter
Then what, in like, does matter?
Eric Sogard - January 9, 2012
*life
how embarrassing.
Eric Sogard - January 9, 2012
Maybe you need to wear your glasses off the field too.
twelveoutof10 - January 9, 2012
Puppies
Mariner John - January 9, 2012
Things that take up space and have mass!
Though, little else.
SeattExPat - January 9, 2012
I'm not that interested in pageantry.
How different would Edgar’s status be in regards to the Baseball Hall of Fame if he had been on the Yankees or the Red Sox?
ignacio - January 9, 2012
Kind of hard to figure out.
I was a little surprised by Bernie’s low vote totals. Not that he deserved to be elected, but Yankees.
Ballard Erik - January 9, 2012
We should send Paul O'Neill to the Hall of Big Baby Bitches
JY - January 9, 2012
Will Clark will meet him there.
Ballard Erik - January 9, 2012
Game 1 of 2001 ALCS,
as O’Neill steps up to bat, some guy close down along the 3rd baseline, stood up and yelled, “YOU SUCK O’NEILL!”
O’Neill homered and as he rounded third spit a fat nasty wad of chaw out with a sneer, while making direct eye contact with the guy, who stood up again and shouted, “YOU STILL SUCK O’NEILL!”
I can confirm he sucks. So he gets my vote for the HoBBB.
cmccrack206 - January 10, 2012
Was that guy you?
If so that’s pretty awesome!
datboyeddiep - January 10, 2012
Part of me will still care in a way, because I'd like to see him get in.
However, after reading and listening to countless inane arguments and seeing bizarre voting trends, I care a whole lot less than I did before. I just want him to have this nice thing, and I want them to give it to him.
Ballard Erik - January 9, 2012
If mostly playing a position that the writers are biased against is ultimately keeping him out, then it interests me
DH is a position; without it, Edgar would have managed to keep raking as a position player. Writers need to vote for/against him like he was any other baseball player.
lemonverbena - January 9, 2012 via mobile
No one pays attention to defense when it comes to the HoF unless the player was amazingly good (i.e. Ozzie Smith)
or the player is Edgar.
quacker27 - January 9, 2012
That's the conventional wisdom, and yet Edgar still gets downgraded for being a DH
lemonverbena - January 9, 2012
I'd never given this much though until this year
It would be interesting to see how my absolutely shitty defenders are in the HOF.
HitKing69 - January 9, 2012
Harmon Killebrew, Dave Winfield, and Kirby Puckett come to mind
Killebrew – negative 7.6 dWAR for his career.
Winfield – negative 9.2
Puckett – only negative 1.8 for his career, but that’s including his one good year as a defender (2.9 dWAR as a rookie)
If Edgar absolutely had to play the field to continue his career, he would have. And he would have been the shittiest first baseman in the league. But, oh that bat.
Aly Edge - January 10, 2012
No one pays attention to defense unless the player was extraordinary or played no defense at all
and for the majority of his career, Edgar did not play defense.
It’s a dumb standard since hey, the DH exists, but still
seattlebruin - January 10, 2012
And its not like Edgar was incompetent
the other day Larry Granillo of Baseball Prospectus culled old minor-league notes:
1988 The Sporting News Baseball Yearbook: "Smooth fielder can make contact but lacks corner power."
1989 TSN: "Pure hitter with solid defense makes Jim Presley available for trade."
msb - January 10, 2012
Probably would have spent an NL career as a perfectly adequate 1B
lemonverbena - January 10, 2012
He was the first person to define the DH not as a roster quirk, or a idiosyncrasy of the American League, but as a legitimate part of the game.
There will probably be better DHs as time goes by, but Brisbee’s argument carries with me. DH is a position. For many years it was a position in flux, defined on the scorecard but seldom appreciated anywhere else. Five time Edgar Martinez award winner Edgar Martinez, in no small respect, distinguished the American League with his performance.
I agree the practical implications of this matter are few. Yet that could be said of the endeavor of baseball as a whole. If the matter is to be discussed at all, there is a certain extent to which we owe our passions and convictions in good faith. And so: That a bunch of sportswriters with a DH complex get to voice their disapproval on a five-time Edgar Martinez award winner (many of whom only cover NL teams) is, at the very least, annoying. Though a five-time Edgar Martinez award winner clearly performed at a legendary clip, it is also clear that he left a more lasting impact on baseball than is recorded in damn near two decades of box scores.
Statistically, the man was a beast. There is no question about it. Yet it is precisely his defining the position of DH, despite dominating the Edgar Martinez award year in and year out, that is held against him on the ledger as if it somehow detracts from his performance or impact on the game. That assumption needs correction. Though others speculate other negative intangibles, that is the crux of the non-stats based argument. Being DH is a liability, an embarrassment, really, even for a five time Edgar Martinez award winner. That thinking is uninspired at best. He wasn’t “just a DH.” He was the DH who defined designated hitting, owned it, and during his tenure dominated the Edgar Martinez award along with heaters, curveballs, sliders, splitters, FIPs and ERAs. He was the first to leave a mark on that position, and last to leave the bases unscathed.
Definitely honorable.
SeattExPat - January 9, 2012
This is exactly my argument!
The DH has been part of the game for longer than many fans can remember. Only us old coots have ever seen a pitcher bat in an American League game (i.e. non-interleague). Edgar remains the best DH in history. As ExPat said, he defined the DH position. How can the writers keep out a player who defined an important part of baseball history? And he did it as a Mariner, who only have Dave Niehaus to represent us, as wonderful as that is.
My other point is that it’s a Hall of FAME, not a Hall of Guys With Great Stats. It exists to celebrate the history of the game, and Edgar as a major part of baseball’s history demands his enshrinement. And as a commercial entity, it should love all the Mariners fans who would attend his induction ceremony.
Finally, considering that the whole anti-DH argument might keep him out, I think the near-miss qualification has already been met for Edgar getting his number retired.
extavernmouse - January 9, 2012
The same bias toward a particular position exists in other sports as well
A position being considered somehow “unworthy” isn’t exlusively a phenomena of the baseball HOF. For example, there are no dedicated punters in the Pro Football HOF. Not even Ray Guy – a man that defined the position.
I suppose the question is whether this bias toward the position will change. My guess is “maybe”. Baseball has shown that these assessments change over time. The relief pitcher is now considered “worthy” where for many years it really was not considered of the same value as other positions.
Henry H - January 10, 2012
I'm gonna punch that Baker guy in the wiener next time I see him.
moyerLIVES - January 9, 2012
If u can find it!
BURN!!
Ballard Erik - January 9, 2012
I'm more annoyed that Bagwell was left out
At this point, it’s so transparently obvious that the voters are making him wait until Biggio is eligible so they can put the Killer B’s in together, and “uh, steroids I guess” is their flimsy excuse.
Benne - January 9, 2012
If they're using the same excuse to put Griffey and Edgar in the hall, I will be okay with that.
Two Rs and Two Ls - January 9, 2012
Too bad...
Randy’s an uber first-ballot, because it would be amazing to have all three at once.
jameslcrockett - January 9, 2012
Randy will go in as a Diamondback
The Reds are going to be riding our coattails when Griffey goes in, but we’ll be riding Arizona’s for Randy.
Aly Edge - January 10, 2012
Sounds like my kinda party
d0nkey - January 10, 2012
I wonder if Randy will have any sort of influence on the Hall's decision as to which team he goes in with.
Given his falling out with Arizona. Stupid Wade Boggs ruined the players’ choice.
Mariner John - January 10, 2012
It's unquestionable that he accomplished more as a Diamondback
Five All-Star teams, one Cy Young, no-hitter
versus
Five All-Star teams, four Cy Youngs, perfect game, World Series ring, World Series MVP
We love him dearly for being one of the few bright spots in the bleak early 90’s, and for being part of the most beloved Mariner team of all (yes, ’95 gets the edge over ’01). But the prime of his career was with Arizona.
Though the fact that he did what he did in Seattle and it may not have been the prime of his career is a pretty good illustration of why he’s a shoo-in to make it.
Aly Edge - January 10, 2012
I didn't say he accomplish more here at all.
I just wondered if they’d let him choose since he spent roughly the same amount of time both places. They probably won’t. It’s just something I think about with players who split time between teams.
Mariner John - January 10, 2012
I think we have the edge on time, actually.
Like 10 seasons to 6.
MT Olson - January 10, 2012
10 to 8
208 more innings.
Jeff Sullivan - January 10, 2012
Oh right, I forgot he came back after the Yanks.
Shucks.
MT Olson - January 11, 2012
Probably...
but he’s still our El Unit Grande.
jameslcrockett - January 10, 2012
If anything, I think the fact that induction is an honor and little more is all the more reason we need better guidelines to define who should be in.
I mean, if it really doesn’t matter except for being an honor for the player inducted the goal should be to get every deserving player in in year 1. I mean, look at Ron Santo, its great he got in, but ultimately the person who would enjoy it the most, Ron Santo, can’t because he died before they got around to electing him.
wetzelcoal - January 9, 2012
If only there was a way to measure how good a player was
both over the season and for his career that takes into account position and park factors. Hmmmm…..
Ballard Erik - January 9, 2012
Stuck
I think you hit the nail on the head when you suggested Edgar might be stuck at 36-40%. I suspect a lot of people NOT voting for him have decided either they don’t want DH in the Hall or that his career was just too short. When “obvious” Hall of Famers like Raines and Bagwell are taking years to get in, a “non-obvious” guy like Edgar doesn’t have much chance. Then again, I have no clue what goes through the mind of voters who change their opinion from year-to-year. 2/3 of the guys who didn’t vote for Larkin last year did vote for him this year. Who the heck left Morris off the ballot 12 times but added him this year?
As well, with all the big names coming up in the next few years and the chance that “obvious first ballot” Hall of Fame guys like Bonds, Clemens, and Piazza stay on the ballot for a few years because of those boycotting them, many Edgar supporters may be forced to drop him off their ballot.
My hunch, he gets a bump into the 40s eventually but never gets over 50%.
AdamSt - January 9, 2012
I hope the Hall of Fame does an end run on the BBWAA and makes some special display for him in a DH exhibit.
JAH - January 9, 2012
Any excuse I have to post this.
Taken at the Hall of Fame in the “Viva Baseball!” exhibit, 2009.
Two Rs and Two Ls - January 9, 2012
Oh my god, my kids will be in H.S. before he drops off the ballot
So there’s this to look forward to every winter, yeesh
Kermit. - January 9, 2012
Before he drops off the ballot?
Think positively man!
Personally I am very disappointed that I was never an M’s fan when he was still active. Stupid wrong side of the pacific.
I hope he gets in. I don’t pretend to understand much about a lot of the arguments, but it seems to me like the good ones are all solid, I don’t find too many arguments against him that don’t centre around “He was a DH”, which gives me hope. It’ll be interesting to see how he tanks during the next few years of big names, though.
Aussie Mariner - January 9, 2012
Can we send everyone in the BBWAA his career line against Mariano Rivera?
WhyGodWhy - January 10, 2012
You mean:
.579/.652/1.053?
Aussie Mariner - January 10, 2012
Also holy shit dude.
Aussie Mariner - January 10, 2012
I knew his line against Rivera was good, but holy fuck.
Cascadian Man - January 10, 2012
Just to clarify, for the kids in the audience
That last number’s not the OPS.
Damn.
fiftyone - January 10, 2012 via mobile
Jesus!
What kind of insane numbers are those?
datboyeddiep - January 10, 2012
I remember reading an interview with Posada
where the interviewer asked “who is the scariest hitter you’ve had to catch against in your career” (or something along those lines) and his answer was “Edgar Martinez”.
ToddK - January 10, 2012
There's always the Veterans Committee, in any event
It really should start with them. Why do we put so much stock into what a bunch of writers think?
Aly Edge - January 10, 2012
Because they control whether or not one of our most beloved players is in the Baseball Hall of Fame
seattlebruin - January 10, 2012
But why, is the question.
Aly Edge - January 10, 2012
Only you can answer that.
Personally, I care not at all.
Matthew - January 10, 2012
Hooray for Bill Mazeroski.
yuniform - January 10, 2012 via Android app
And Ron Santo
Aly Edge - January 10, 2012
"Every voter is voting for his own personal Hall."
Fuck those guys. Same reason why politics is stupid.
Vote on behalf of the fans assholes.
d0nkey - January 10, 2012
Because if there's one group of people that's reasonable about the DH...
Jeff Sullivan - January 10, 2012
I'm not sure that my asshole really cares much either way.
ToddK - January 10, 2012
In 10 years Dave Cameron will get to vote for the HOF.
So help is on the way.
Easley - January 10, 2012
I'm a Padres fan, so I'm supposed to be a sworn enemy
(because that’s what Bud Selig said), but I follow the M’s from across the state, and my non-M’s fan’s opinion has been conflicted until I read the stat regarding the .300/.400/.500 club. With the exception of Shoeless Joe and Edgar, the entire club is not only Hall of Famers, it’s cream of the crop Hall of Famers. If you add 500+ doubles and 300+ HRs to the mix, the number of members is six (including Edgar) and the other five are Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Musial and Hornsby. I think the argument should be over.
EvilSammy - January 11, 2012
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