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On Edgar Martinez

4,675 hits

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4,675 hits

The first thought is that it's good news. In Edgar Martinez's second year on the Hall of Fame ballot, he received 32.9 percent support. In Edgar Martinez's third year on the ballot, he received 36.5 percent support. That's a bump - a bigger bump than, say, Larry Walker got, or Dale Murphy got - and Edgar's way ahead of where Bert Blyleven was at this point. It struck me that things are looking pretty good for Edgar to make the Hall of Fame sometime way down the line.

The second thought is that it's bad news. In Edgar Martinez's first year on the ballot, he received 36.2 percent support. Before he went up, he went down, such that after three years, he's basically where he was after one. Again, he's doing better than Blyleven was early on, but Blyleven only got in after an unbelievably exhaustive campaign on his behalf by a number of analysts. We can't count on the same campaign for Edgar. Maybe he won't get in. Maybe he'll be hurt by his peers, like Jeff Bagwell. Maybe a sufficiently large group of writers will never get past the DH hurdle. Maybe Edgar's stuck.

The third thought is that it just doesn't matter. Much, anyway. It matters a little, in that it's important to Edgar, and relevant to us because it's important to Edgar, but think about it. We're talking about the Hall of Fame. Players are voted into the Hall of Fame by the Baseball Writers' Association of America. This year, the Baseball Writers' Association of America cast 321 ballots in support of Jeff Bagwell, and 382 ballots in support of Jack Morris. Bagwell was a superstar. He was a superstar, a bunch of times. Morris was pretty good, some of the time. No offense to the members of the BBWAA worthy of respect, but we're supposed to care what these people think?

There is no definition of a Hall of Fame-caliber player. There are guidelines, but the guidelines don't mean anything. Every decision is basically a judgment call, and while some judgments are obvious and easy, others are not, and that's a problem. Edgar isn't a hands-down, all-time great, and without an objective lower threshold, it's all a big subjective mess. You get arguments about his not contributing in the field. You get arguments about longevity. You get arguments about how his hit total's too low. Every voter is voting for his own personal Hall.

Moving beyond that, what is the purpose of the Hall of Fame? The purpose of the Hall of Fame, presumably, is to serve as a museum, educating visitors about the game's past. Do you think there are any Mariners fans who need to learn about Edgar Martinez? Do you think there are other baseball fans who need to learn about Edgar Martinez, and who will only learn about him if he's in the Hall? Induction is an honor, but it's an honor with little value beyond that, and it's an honor bestowed by the same people who made Barry Zito the 2002 AL Cy Young. Not that the BBWAA isn't getting better about its voting habits, but it's still a body of sportswriters.

Whether or not Edgar Martinez is ever voted into the Hall of Fame won't make a lick of difference when it comes to how he's remembered in the Pacific Northwest. Edgar's Edgar - one of the greatest Mariners to have ever worn the uniform. That's independent of his status in Cooperstown. And I can't imagine it'll make too much of a difference when it comes to how he's remembered elsewhere. Edgar was terrifying. He was one of the best right-handed hitters a bunch of pitchers ever saw. A plaque on a faraway wall doesn't solidify memories, just as a lack of a plaque doesn't allow those memories to dissolve any faster.

I think I'm rambling, mostly because I don't have much experience writing about this. Generally I avoid writing about the Hall of Fame, because the Hall of Fame doesn't do much for me, and this is my blog. I don't know if Edgar Martinez will ever make the Hall of Fame. I honestly don't know if Edgar Martinez deserves to make the Hall of Fame, the way it currently is, in that some of the arguments against him are not illegitimate. But I know that Edgar Martinez was one of the greatest hitters I've ever seen. I know that a lot of other people and a lot of other players and coaches feel the same way. Some hundreds of ballots cast by writers aren't ever going to change anything about that. If Edgar's inducted, there'll be some celebrations, but when the celebrations are over, we'll all go back to thinking about him the way we do today.

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Comments

"Edgar - one of the greatest Mariners to have ever worn the uniform" - not just one of the greatest, THE greatest, in my opinion.
Here's why I care

Every year the fans of the inductees get to go to Cooperstown and have a huge celebration. When Griffey and the Unit get in, we’ll have to share them with the Reds (who get to go this year anyway and also are more than well-represented in Cooperstown) and Diamondbacks (those long-suffering fans in Phoenix), respectively. Edgar is ours alone.

Edgar getting into the Hall of Fame means his number will finally be retired.

Which I care about for some reason.

It's only speculation, but it's been my speculation a long time

The Mariners will retire #11. But they will retire #24 first.

Junior’s not going to get a street. Niehaus got the first statue. I think they want to save some kind of honor for Griffey to be the first.

Technically, 11 could get retired without Edgar making the HOF

The team bylaws are that a player must be inducted to the Hall of Fame as a Mariner, or “narrowly miss” induction while spending his entire career with the club.

That should cover both Edgar and Griffey.

It's already effectively retired

Blood would probably flow in the streets if they ever gave it to anyone.

Yes, but I don't like having our only officially retired number be from someone who never played for us.
I thought Alvin Davis' number was retired...

but it looks like Guti is presently using it. I doubt that Griffey!’s 24 will ever see use by anyone else.

I was not a fan of Guti taking #21.

AD was the first player inducted into the Mariner Hall of Fame. I know he’s not Baseball HOF material, but he was the first Mariner to be well known out of Seattle for something other than being shitty (Mendoza). I’m ok with the Mariners not retiring numbers left and right, but not one Mariner in the history of the franchise has earned that honor yet? Seems a little extreme to me.

Hargrove wore 21 too
And so did David Segui.
Fuck me.

Actually fuck the Mariners for not putting 21 aside.

I never knew that.

I wasn’t able to watch a lot of Mariner games when he was manger. The fact that the club handed it out twice doesn’t make me feel any better.

They still haven't re-issued 19 or 14 since Buhner and Lou left
Ugh....I seriously scrolled down to every comment before this one

Sorry to be redundant.

Yes, I like that 11 and 24 are "unofficially retired"

Also 14 (Lou Piniella) and 19 (Jay Buhner). It probably means nothing, but 3 (Alex Rodriguez) on the other hand has been issued to, among others, Bob Melvin and Pokey Reese. That just seems….just to me.

I don't care if anyone wears Arod's jersey

Screw him!

I think I actually prefer their method of "we won't retire numbers for non-HOFers, but out of respect and mutual trust, that number won't be issued for a while."

I believe Ichiro had to get permission from Randy Johnson to wear #51, for instance.

Yeah, their going to have to retire 51 AND 102.
Did Randy get permission from Quinones to wear 51?
They really should retire his number at the end of this season

If we did that whole dog and pony show and make a huge deal about it, it could help sway voters.

And honestly, I care more about seeing Martinez 11 hanging from the rafters than the plaque in Cooperstown.

Although if I ever make it to Cooperstown I'm sure my opinion on this will change
One of the coolest things the Mariners did concerning his number

was when Pepsi One had logos on the wall, they put two of them together in right field in honor of Edgar.

If Edgar not getting in to the HOF doesn't matter

Then what, in like, does matter?

*life

how embarrassing.

Maybe you need to wear your glasses off the field too.
Things that take up space and have mass!

Though, little else.

I'm not that interested in pageantry.

How different would Edgar’s status be in regards to the Baseball Hall of Fame if he had been on the Yankees or the Red Sox?

Kind of hard to figure out.

I was a little surprised by Bernie’s low vote totals. Not that he deserved to be elected, but Yankees.

We should send Paul O'Neill to the Hall of Big Baby Bitches
Will Clark will meet him there.
Game 1 of 2001 ALCS,

as O’Neill steps up to bat, some guy close down along the 3rd baseline, stood up and yelled, “YOU SUCK O’NEILL!”

O’Neill homered and as he rounded third spit a fat nasty wad of chaw out with a sneer, while making direct eye contact with the guy, who stood up again and shouted, “YOU STILL SUCK O’NEILL!”

I can confirm he sucks. So he gets my vote for the HoBBB.

Was that guy you?

If so that’s pretty awesome!

Part of me will still care in a way, because I'd like to see him get in.

However, after reading and listening to countless inane arguments and seeing bizarre voting trends, I care a whole lot less than I did before. I just want him to have this nice thing, and I want them to give it to him.

If mostly playing a position that the writers are biased against is ultimately keeping him out, then it interests me

DH is a position; without it, Edgar would have managed to keep raking as a position player. Writers need to vote for/against him like he was any other baseball player.

No one pays attention to defense when it comes to the HoF unless the player was amazingly good (i.e. Ozzie Smith)

or the player is Edgar.

That's the conventional wisdom, and yet Edgar still gets downgraded for being a DH
I'd never given this much though until this year

It would be interesting to see how my absolutely shitty defenders are in the HOF.

Harmon Killebrew, Dave Winfield, and Kirby Puckett come to mind

Killebrew – negative 7.6 dWAR for his career.
Winfield – negative 9.2
Puckett – only negative 1.8 for his career, but that’s including his one good year as a defender (2.9 dWAR as a rookie)

If Edgar absolutely had to play the field to continue his career, he would have. And he would have been the shittiest first baseman in the league. But, oh that bat.

No one pays attention to defense unless the player was extraordinary or played no defense at all

and for the majority of his career, Edgar did not play defense.

It’s a dumb standard since hey, the DH exists, but still

And its not like Edgar was incompetent

the other day Larry Granillo of Baseball Prospectus culled old minor-league notes:
1988 The Sporting News Baseball Yearbook: "Smooth fielder can make contact but lacks corner power."
1989 TSN: "Pure hitter with solid defense makes Jim Presley available for trade."

Probably would have spent an NL career as a perfectly adequate 1B
I'm gonna punch that Baker guy in the wiener next time I see him.
If u can find it!

BURN!!

I'm more annoyed that Bagwell was left out

At this point, it’s so transparently obvious that the voters are making him wait until Biggio is eligible so they can put the Killer B’s in together, and “uh, steroids I guess” is their flimsy excuse.

If they're using the same excuse to put Griffey and Edgar in the hall, I will be okay with that.
Too bad...

Randy’s an uber first-ballot, because it would be amazing to have all three at once.

Randy will go in as a Diamondback

The Reds are going to be riding our coattails when Griffey goes in, but we’ll be riding Arizona’s for Randy.

Sounds like my kinda party
I wonder if Randy will have any sort of influence on the Hall's decision as to which team he goes in with.

Given his falling out with Arizona. Stupid Wade Boggs ruined the players’ choice.

It's unquestionable that he accomplished more as a Diamondback

Five All-Star teams, one Cy Young, no-hitter

versus

Five All-Star teams, four Cy Youngs, perfect game, World Series ring, World Series MVP

We love him dearly for being one of the few bright spots in the bleak early 90’s, and for being part of the most beloved Mariner team of all (yes, ’95 gets the edge over ’01). But the prime of his career was with Arizona.

Though the fact that he did what he did in Seattle and it may not have been the prime of his career is a pretty good illustration of why he’s a shoo-in to make it.

I didn't say he accomplish more here at all.

I just wondered if they’d let him choose since he spent roughly the same amount of time both places. They probably won’t. It’s just something I think about with players who split time between teams.

I think we have the edge on time, actually.

Like 10 seasons to 6.

10 to 8

208 more innings.

Oh right, I forgot he came back after the Yanks.

Shucks.

Probably...

but he’s still our El Unit Grande.

If anything, I think the fact that induction is an honor and little more is all the more reason we need better guidelines to define who should be in.

I mean, if it really doesn’t matter except for being an honor for the player inducted the goal should be to get every deserving player in in year 1. I mean, look at Ron Santo, its great he got in, but ultimately the person who would enjoy it the most, Ron Santo, can’t because he died before they got around to electing him.

If only there was a way to measure how good a player was

both over the season and for his career that takes into account position and park factors. Hmmmm…..

Stuck

I think you hit the nail on the head when you suggested Edgar might be stuck at 36-40%. I suspect a lot of people NOT voting for him have decided either they don’t want DH in the Hall or that his career was just too short. When “obvious” Hall of Famers like Raines and Bagwell are taking years to get in, a “non-obvious” guy like Edgar doesn’t have much chance. Then again, I have no clue what goes through the mind of voters who change their opinion from year-to-year. 2/3 of the guys who didn’t vote for Larkin last year did vote for him this year. Who the heck left Morris off the ballot 12 times but added him this year?

As well, with all the big names coming up in the next few years and the chance that “obvious first ballot” Hall of Fame guys like Bonds, Clemens, and Piazza stay on the ballot for a few years because of those boycotting them, many Edgar supporters may be forced to drop him off their ballot.

My hunch, he gets a bump into the 40s eventually but never gets over 50%.

I hope the Hall of Fame does an end run on the BBWAA and makes some special display for him in a DH exhibit.
Any excuse I have to post this.


Taken at the Hall of Fame in the “Viva Baseball!” exhibit, 2009.

Oh my god, my kids will be in H.S. before he drops off the ballot

So there’s this to look forward to every winter, yeesh

Before he drops off the ballot?

Think positively man!
Personally I am very disappointed that I was never an M’s fan when he was still active. Stupid wrong side of the pacific.
I hope he gets in. I don’t pretend to understand much about a lot of the arguments, but it seems to me like the good ones are all solid, I don’t find too many arguments against him that don’t centre around “He was a DH”, which gives me hope. It’ll be interesting to see how he tanks during the next few years of big names, though.

Can we send everyone in the BBWAA his career line against Mariano Rivera?
You mean:

.579/.652/1.053?

Also holy shit dude.
I knew his line against Rivera was good, but holy fuck.
Just to clarify, for the kids in the audience

That last number’s not the OPS.
Damn.

Jesus!

What kind of insane numbers are those?

I remember reading an interview with Posada

where the interviewer asked “who is the scariest hitter you’ve had to catch against in your career” (or something along those lines) and his answer was “Edgar Martinez”.

There's always the Veterans Committee, in any event

It really should start with them. Why do we put so much stock into what a bunch of writers think?

Because they control whether or not one of our most beloved players is in the Baseball Hall of Fame
But why, is the question.
Only you can answer that.

Personally, I care not at all.

Hooray for Bill Mazeroski.
"Every voter is voting for his own personal Hall."

Fuck those guys. Same reason why politics is stupid.

Vote on behalf of the fans assholes.

Because if there's one group of people that's reasonable about the DH...
I'm not sure that my asshole really cares much either way.
In 10 years Dave Cameron will get to vote for the HOF.

So help is on the way.

I'm a Padres fan, so I'm supposed to be a sworn enemy

(because that’s what Bud Selig said), but I follow the M’s from across the state, and my non-M’s fan’s opinion has been conflicted until I read the stat regarding the .300/.400/.500 club. With the exception of Shoeless Joe and Edgar, the entire club is not only Hall of Famers, it’s cream of the crop Hall of Famers. If you add 500+ doubles and 300+ HRs to the mix, the number of members is six (including Edgar) and the other five are Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Musial and Hornsby. I think the argument should be over.

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