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Lookout Landing

On Trayvon Robinson

Got me again, pitched baseball

Otto Greule Jr - Getty Images

Got me again, pitched baseball

I remember that a lot of us were thrilled when the Mariners traded Erik Bedard this past July. Granted, part of that was because we weren't sure if Erik Bedard would be traded at all, and part of that was because the initial Erik Bedard trade rumor was less than impressive. And many of us liked Erik Bedard the pitcher. But then when we heard about the three-way deal, we were pleased. Not only were the Mariners getting a diabetic 23-year-old making mincemeat of double-A; they were getting another 23-year-old by the name of Trayvon Robinson who was lighting it up a level above. Not bad for two months of an unreliable starting pitcher who wasn't coming back.

There was a lot to like about Robinson. He was young. He was performing at an incredibly high level. He was laden with tools. Reports said he had decent discipline. He could play center field. He could switch-hit. Robinson was an exciting prospect to receive.

But there was this one thing. This one big flashing yellow caution light. This one big flashing yellow caution light that didn't just flash but also repeated "HEY, CAUTION" through a speaker. Robinson had trouble making consistent contact. With Albuquerque, he had 122 strikeouts in 416 plate appearances. And with Albuquerque, he had a contact rate of 65 percent. The average contact rate in the Majors is about 81 percent. In between his line drives, Robinson was whiffing in triple-A.

That was a cause for concern. And, unsurprisingly, Robinson brought his contact issues with him to the bigs. Over 155 Major League plate appearances, he struck out 61 times, with a contact rate of 66 percent. He had a .586 OPS. There were good moments, but there were many more bad moments.

When you have a prospect who swings and misses too often, the automatic suspicion is that he swings at too many bad pitches. An interesting thing about Robinson is that, with Seattle, his judgment wasn't bad. Here's Robinson against the league average:

In Zone

Robinson: 70% swing
Average: 62%

Out Of Zone

Robinson: 30% swing
Average: 29%

Trayvon Robinson posted a higher swing rate than the league average, but the majority of those extra swings were coming against strikes. It's not like he was going fishing all the time. He wasn't Carlos Peguero. The trouble was that he still couldn't make much contact. He posted one of the lowest contact rates in baseball against pitches in the zone. And he posted the very lowest contact rate in baseball against pitches out of the zone. Be wary of small samples, and all.

Truth be told, I'm really just trying to build this post around the following chart. Here you will see a chart of Trayvon Robinson's swings as a Mariner, grouped into contact swings and missed swings. The gray box is an approximation of the strike zone and is not to be taken as gospel. It is not to be taken as gospel. Please do not take the gray strike zone approximation as gospel.

Trayvon2011_medium

Robinson didn't chase a whole lot up high. He didn't chase a whole lot to either side. Then you look down. Robinson chased down low. He chased down low and whiffed almost every time. This was a clear vulnerability of his, and while I don't expect Trayvon Robinson or any player to have a perfect eye, this could stand to be improved, lest it be exploited.

And, of course, there are the misses within the zone. It's not impossible to succeed as a hitter with Robinson's 2011 in-zone contact rate. Mark Reynolds, for example, posted a lower in-zone contact rate. But Trayvon Robinson doesn't have Mark Reynolds' power. Robinson's power potential is real but limited, only increasing his need to make more contact.

In a sense, Robinson was raw. In a sense, he showed some polish. He didn't chase as many bad pitches as a lot of rookies do. But Robinson didn't make enough contact in the minors in 2011, and he didn't make enough contact in the Majors in 2011. This is what is currently holding Robinson back. It's a significant thing and not an easy fix. I don't know what's at the core of Robinson's contact problems but until or unless he gets them sorted out at least in part, he's destined to be no more than a 25th or 26th man. A guy like Robinson needs to hit the ball more than Robinson hit the ball.

2 recs  |  64 comments

Comments

My brain adds yellow dots in between the red and blue dots

Not there

Yeah, he sure as shit wasn't Carlos Peguero

Carlos Peguero was fun to watch

He was?

I’ll give you Torii Hunter Sun Ball and Second Base Ricochet but come on, the guy was abysmal.

The POWer. I bet the guy could bunt for a home run...

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=16289563&c_id=mlb

Peguero was so bad even dingers couldn't make him watchable
You posted a link in which the home run barely cleared the wall.
I was sitting is RF at the time and that ball scared the hell out of me

It was fuckin smoked

I find it quite telling that the two most memorable Carlos Peguero moments had nothing to do with Carlos Peguero.

The Sun and Second Base are better baseball prospects than Carlos Peguero.

He was comical to watch in the outfield, lumbering about and making routine flyballs an adventure.
Carlos Peguero was my least favorite Mariner to watch in 2011.

Peguero couldn’t hit a ball off a tee, and hitting the ball hard isn’t very interesting or fun to watch when his stance and swing are that horrendous.

I imagine Paula Dean has a sweeter swing.
A sweeter swing is what gave her diabetes.
Damn!

That was just too funny. Although diabetes are no laughing matter. Unexpected!

Like a supremely unsuccessful Vlad Guerrero
Mine was Griffey

Peguero at least had a comical entertainment factor. Junior’s death rattle was just sad.

Which was the season before

Mariner bad things all blending together for me now.

Even more than Figgins?
rather than having fun, I got angry every time he came up

He had no business playing baseball for a professional team above single A.

There’s nothing fun for me in watching someone who is so bad at baseball that he swings so hard he keeps breaking his bat or missing.

In 36 years of watching baseball, I’ve never seen a less prepared, less fun to watch player that Pequero.

Feels a little extreme to say he shouldn't be above A ball, he's perfect for AAA.

And really, you found someone like Yuni to be more enjoyable than Peguero?

No, unless you're watching batting practice

Remember the Peguero strikeout after three intentional balls? That wasn’t even surprising. The only guy whose 2011 ABs were less “fun to watch” than Peguero’s was Michael Saunders.

Saundog :(

You were supposed to be the LF anchor with Guti and Ichiro.

I was at the strikeout after three intentional balls game.

I was also at the Torii Hunter Sun Ball game. 2/3 strange Peguero moments in person!

So, I'm retarded

Who’s that one previous highly-ranked (within our system) prospect we had, that couldn’t stop striking out in the minors but was toolsy and had a lot of power? I remember Dave Cameron arguing with Jack Z that there’s no way he could be successful in the majors due to his contact problems. Man I’m really drawing a blank here…I don’t even remember if this player is still on the team, maybe traded or flamed out….

...Greg Halman?
...

Yep, that’s it. Man I feel like an ass now.

I feel like not making contact but having discipline is a lot easier to fix than making contact but having no discipline

I’m not sure why.

I guess one is more mechanical and one is more behavioral.
Just needs to work on his stance

that’s how they fixed Saunders.

Snip snip

Unfortunately, it seems that Saunders got the wrong kind of fixed.

With the only basis being my intution, I feel the opposite way.

It would seem like discipline might be more about approach, and so fixable through coaching, while missing in the zone might be more about something innate, like hand / eye coordination.

I was thinking the same thing, especially if it's something like bat speed or hand/eye coordination.

Sure, you could improve them but they’d probably be marginal improvements without underlying ability.

Much of having discipline could be considered innate as well, as identifying pitches is a difficult skill.
Perhaps Robinson can use his discipline to lay off low pitches, even borderline ones?

Doesn’t fix his contact problems in the zone, but if pitchers don’t have that as an option anymore, he gets more hittable pitches, or something. Or maybe if it were that easy he’d already be trying to do that.

Absolutely.

And I believe it’s fairly rare for a guy with no discipline to just figure it out. Guys may just choose to take more pitches, but pitch recognition, together with the bat speed to use it, is certainly a skill. Still, though, the inability to put the bat on the ball, in general, which appears to Robinson’s problem, seems like a fundamental flaw, whereas being overly aggressive (not his problem) is something that could be corrected.

Also, many players with no discipline are idiots.
I feel exactly the same!
Maybe he needs glasses?
I agree because contact is a rewarding sensation and it's probably harder to get someone to accept they are better served not selling out to get it after they've gotten used to it
Complete novice question here (sorry), but doesn't that miss pattern suggest...

being fooled by a certain type of pitch (and I don’t mean simply low)

I think that's an excellent point - he may have a problem with breaking balls.

His problems may be that (a) he can’t hit breaking balls very well; and (b) he especially can’t hit breaking balls in the dirt.

Yeah thats what I thought too

Do we have data about how he made contact against different pitch types?

Small sample size warning,

but Texas Leaguers has him whiffing at 38% of changeups and 23.8% of sliders. And it looks like he chased both pitches a lot out of the zone. All the swing-and-misses in the zone also make sense if he was out in front of the changeup a lot.

If he isn’t able to hit a change, that’s pretty bad since as a switch-hitter he should see a lot of them. But I think it’s fairly common to see young hitters struggle with a good changeup, so I think there’s a pretty good chance he could improve.

He appears to have missed several pitches that were literally right down the middle

Mariners!

Is his upside at this point, like, 2011 Cameron Maybin?
That seems like pretty high praise, especially considering Maybin is an elite defender
I should have clarified, offensive ceiling.

Low contact rate, pretty decent plate discipline, not a ton of power, and good speed.

Although Maybin doesn’t quite have the contact problems of Robinson, it’s not unfathomable to see Robinson get to a 73% contact rate.

it's the zone-contact that's the problem

Maybin hits 85% in the zone career, despite poor contact rates; Travyon hit 76%. That would be 2nd worst rate among qualified hitters, above Reynolds but below Kemp.

He can raise his contact% by not swinging at stuff in the dirt but if he can’t hit crap in the zone it’s not going to work without Kemp/Reynolds power

Well there aren't really any major league comps to Robinson's current skillset.

Maybin is fairly low-contact for a non-power hitter and still manages to do fine with good plate discipline. Trayvon right now is similar to Maybin, but with much worse contact skill and less speed. If he gets to a passable contact rate, then he could be Maybin-like at the plate.

Cameron Maybin 2011 = 4.7 WAR.

Robinson’s ceiling appears to be more home runs, less stolen bases. Personally, I’d think of Robinsons ceiling as like a “3 win player.”

If Trayvon was a 3 WAR player I'd be thrilled.
Well, I'm talking about the absolute best case scenario as I would see it.

I think we’d all be thrilled with a 3 WAR player at this point from nearly any hitter.

Yeah, but

did you see that one catch?

He got his career peak taken care of early!
I'm not sure why, but I like him.

Maybe he’ll do better with a little more time in AAA.

I'm not real hopeful about this guy,

and the chart makes me less so.

I blame tuberculosis
Jordan Schafer offers some hope.

He went from 72% zone contact and 65% overall contact in his 2009 rookie season to 88% zone contact and 82% overall contact in 2011.

He still isn’t a good hitter, though. He also does too many drugs.

Ryan Ludwick is an overall more successful goal- high 70s zone contact % over 250 PAs in first two seasons, mid 80s zone contact % for rest of his career.

What were Jordan Schafer's contact rates in the minor leagues?
Probably a little better than Trayvon's.

I don’t know where to find contract rates for minor leagues except at minorleaguecentral, which only has 2011 stats(if anyone knows where to find pre-2011 contact rates then post a link!). There however a couple of stats that can be used to estimate Schafer’s contact rate. First, StatCorner tracks strikeouts from missed swings- 17% of Schafer’s PAs resulting in a swinging k in 2008, the year before his MLB promotion. Travyon’s was 27% last year, and 19% before that. A couple of things should be noted here. Schafer was jumped from AA to MLB, which likely contributed to his fluctuating contact rates. However, based on his contact rate it could be argued that Trayvon wasn’t ready for the show either. Also, Travyon made contact as a much worse rate last year-in the minors and MLB- than he ever has before. It wouldn’t surprise me if he made a change in his mechanics/approach last year. In fact, I’ve read that some scouts felt Trayvon was “selling out his swing to try to hit for power”. I am not completely sure what that means, but its probably not good for his contact rate.

Move 9 columns to the left in statcorner

Look under Mis% – Trayvon’s contact issues, unfortunately, seem to dwarf Schafer’s AAA numbers.

I think you’re right that Robinson wasn’t ready for the show; he just happened to play for the M’s, so that didn’t really matter. My worry is that more time in AAA can’t fix what’s wrong. I’d love to be wrong here, but both Wlad Balentien and Greg Halman (both of whose natural power dwarfs Robinson’s) made progress in AAA – it just didn’t seem to matter in the big leagues. It’s really hard to fix something a deficiency like this.

Drew Stubbs is a guy who reminds me a bit of Robinson – Stubbs K’d over 200 times last year, and had contact issues in college. He’s made it work by playing decent defense and hitting for some power, but he was awful last year. And even Stubbs’ contact rates in AAA were significantly better.

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